Miracle Grow Garden Soil - problem?

Gymgirl--
5 gallons = .67 cubic feet

Vortreker,
I LOVE YOU, TOO!!!!

So, for 20 square ft. of potting medium, I need to cut in:
13.40 cubic feet of soil conditioner/pine bark fines, and
.535 cubic feet of perlite

or
I could go with the "part" measurement and the whole batch would equal:
20 buckets old potting medium
20 buckets of pine fines/soil conditioner
5 buckets of perlite

Yes?

Looks like a love fest then! ;o)

You want pine bark about the size of the material in the picture. It would be better if you would add more bark than old soil, if it doesn't stretch the budget too far ..... and it's going to be easier to mix if you mix by parts. I usually toss 2 cu ft of bark on a big tarp, then 4 gallons each of peat then perlite, then anything else I'm adding. I mix it on the tarp with the back (not the tines) of a garden rake, being careful not to tear up the tarp. I moisten then, and pull the corners of the tarp alternately to fully mix the soil. It helps if you have 2 people, but I always do it by myself. Use whatever size measuring container you're comfortable with, but you'll need to at least be able to guess about the volume so you know how much lime to add.

Figure 7-1/2 gallons = 1 cu ft.

Al

Al, Al, Al...

Mathematically CHALLENGED, here...

7-1/2 gallons = 1 cubic feet means to use 7 and 1/2 gallon buckets of old soil per 1 cubic feet of pine fines, yes?

So, for a 2 cubic ft. bag of soil conditioner/pine bark fines, I'll use 15 buckets of old soil, yes?

Or, since you said to use more bark, how about I use the 2 cubic ft bag of pine bark, and maybe 12 buckets of old soil. And then add 4 buckets of perlite. How's that recipe sound. Uh, we did not discuss peat. Don't confuse me...

Talk to me in bucket language, Al. I love to talk dirt!

Hugs.

If you use 7-1/2 gallons of old and 1 cu ft of bark, you're using the same amount of both. Why don't you do this:
Use 1 - 2 cu ft bag of bark + 10 gallons of old soil, and 3 gallons of perlite + 1-1/4 cups of lime?

I'm not sure how large your buckets are, but if you're using old soil and bark at 1:1, for 2 cu ft of bark, you would use 15 GALLONS of old soil. That would be 15 buckets, only if you're bucket holds 1 gallon. ;o)

Al

Al,
The eBuckets will be inactive until September. Is it ok to just empty the reservoirs and let the medium dry out before I do the remIx with the pine bark?

I don't have anywhere to store the potting mix other than in the buckets. Should I leave the lids on or uncover them? The Lids have a 3” hole in the center. They probably need some air so they don't go all funky, huh?

Thanks!

Linda

It's prolly easier to do the remixing if the soil is dry, and being dry stops the breakdown of soil particles, too - so shoot for 'dry'. I imagine you'll want to pull out the big clumps of roots as well.

Al

Tapla and others,
I am enjoying all this education but I seem to be missing how the plants are getting proper nutrients. This last year I have potted up 8 or so rooted figs (several var.) and sometimes I have used yard topsoil - sandy acid stuff - to mix with leftover potting soil (pots of last year's annuals). Sometimes I have used pure compost from my redworms pile made mostly from kitchen veggies. The pure compost drains beautifully and rooted fig trees grow beautifully. The fig trees in slap-dab mixings have various vigor but a little Ozmacote (sp?) seems to help. A couple do drain poorly but it's so hot and dry there's no problem this Summer. I don't generate enough worm based compost for all my needs. Photo is of last year's potting in pure worm compost (big pot) and others in random soil mix - note leaf color and growth..

If I were to use pine finings, peat, perlite, I assume I would have to add some kind of chemical fertilizer. It this correct? You seemed to be pretty negative on Perlite, then added it to the mix in later postings. Perhaps you were just stressing the Perlite won't make good drainage? If so (and my past experience does confirm this) why use Perlite at all?

Maybe I should just wait til the ticks go away in the Fall and scrape up some woodsy top soil for next year's endeavors. It's about 4" deep before I hit the sandy-rocky stuff.

I am not sure if my ramblings made sense or not- I hope so.

Paul

Hi, Paul. I use a couple of different basic soils. One is made with equal parts of Turface, crushed granite, and screened pine or fir bark. The other is made with 5 parts of pine bark and 1 part each of peat and perlite.

I don't use anything in my soils that destroys porosity (large fractions peat, coir, compost ..... I don't use vermipost, castings, topsoil or sand, unless the sand is at least 1/2 BB-size) which is why there is such a small peat fraction in the 5:1:1 mix and none in the other (gritty) mix. My philosophy is that when you make a container soil, the factor most important to plant vitality is the ability of the soil to retain favorably provide aeration and drainage for the intended life of the planting. Hundreds of people have also come to the same conclusion after reading some of my reasoning and trying the soils for themselves. (I can link you to threads if you're interested.) I'm not promoting "my" soils, only the idea that aeration and drainage are extremely important to plant health, though I do suggest various recipes as good starting points.

I have also found that soluble fertilizers like Miracle-Gro (24-8-16, 12-4-8)and other brands, particularly Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 are the best way to supply nutrients to containerized plants, as long as a personal ideology doesn't limit your options. They deliver nutrients immediately, in the proper/favorable ratios, and you know exactly what your plants are getting and when.

The problem with "pure compost" or pure anything comprised of fine particulates, is that it quickly compacts, holds too much water and too little air. If you water properly, the soil stays soggy for too long, causing the cyclic death & regeneration of of fine roots. That is very costly to the plant, and something you can't see unless you compare what you're growing in now to plants grown in a well-aerated and durable soil.

Ficus carica (your figs) are genetically extremely vigorous and will tolerate mediums and cultural conditions that less vigorous plants won't, so I don't doubt that you're having satisfactory results growing them. I grow at least 10 species of Ficus, including carica. All are grown in the soil you see below, the only organic component of which is 1/3 uncomposted fir bark. I have hundreds of plants in this mix by choice because it works exceptionally well. If compost or other commercially prepared peat-based soils worked as well or better, you can rest assured that I would be growing in those soils because they are less expensive and I don't have to make them, but they don't.

Take care.

Al

I hereby rename "Gymgirl" --"Bucketgirl"

Aw, shucks! And I was gonna get back into the gym soon as I relocated in two weeks.

Guess getting my eBuckets in shape for the next season is preoccupying my mind...

Tapla, I don't like the appearance of perlite -- is there a decent substitute?

Turface and calcined DE (available as floor-dry or oil-dry, but make sure you'
re getting an appropriate particle size) are two ingredients that serve the same purpose but will up the soils ability to hold water considerably. Haydite and pumice in appropriate sizes are also suitable substitutes that don't add as much to the water retention as the Turface and/or calcined DE.

FWIW - whether or not the extra water retention would be considered good or bad depends on whether or not the rest of the soil components, when mixed together, support much of a perched water table. Generally, the 5:1:1 mix holds very little perched water and can afford the extra water retention, but soils based on peat/compost/coir are already very water-retentive, so I would try to avoid using anything that adds to the water retention when using any of those components as the primary fraction of a soil. Crushed granite or cherrystone would work well for those applications.

Al

Tapla,
I've done a 360, and am considering taking the two raised beds (filled with never used veggie garden blend) with me. Can I add all the contents of the existing eBuckets to the two beds of garden blend once they're in place, or should I totally discard the contents? Remember, they're filled with 50% of the garden blend (which is part of the container compaction problem) and the other 50% is made up of homemade compost, leaf decomp, and MG potting mix.

LMK soonest, cause I've got to use the buckets to dig up the existing beds. I need to know what to do with the stuff in the buckets..

Thanks!

If you're thinking of using old soil that had collapsed & was compacted in raised beds? - go ahead. The earth acts like a giant wick and will 'pull' the excess water out of the soil if it's in a raised bed. I think I understood you correctly? You'll want a significant mineral fraction in raised bed soils (RBS) though, like maybe 50%+, to help guard against the RBS becoming too fine as it breaks down and to help reduce shrinkage, which will be considerable if your RBS is almost all organic.

Al

In my raised beds you'll find this soil:

Al

Tapla,
You understand exactly right! And, what you're holding in your hand looks exactly like what I'm dealing with now! I have 2 yards of the garden blend which was real heavy and lots of sand. But, there's an good amount of various size particulate in there to balance out, I think. Any, it looks like your stuff!

Hugs!

On more question. How should I incorporate these two mediums? I was thinking of actually using all the surplus stuff I have in stock that would've been for a lasagna type garden on the bottom, just like a lasagna, and then putting the garden blend mix from the two existing beds on top. The veggie roots would grow through the veggie blend and into an organic, lasagna layer. My layers would be made like this:

Cover the existing grassy sites with layers of newspaper and moisten thoroughly. Then. layering shredder paper, coffee grinds, dried leaves, my homemade compost, the veggie peel slush, then some of what's in the buckets. Then start layers again until I run out of all that stuff, then fill in the very top layer with the veggie garden blend. Or should I mix it all together a different way?

Just happy to know it can all go in together...

P.S. I know there's organics mixed in already cause some eBuckets were teeming with earthworms, and some eBuckets had none or very few...

I would simply layer the newspaper or cardboard & then put the rest of the well-mixed material on top of it & be done with it. There's no benefit in going to the trouble of layering it, though you can if it's easier. I'd still mix it all up with a spade fork after it was layered.

Al

Thanks!

Al, I didn't see the screen dimension for screening pine bark to the size finings in your 3-6-9 photo above. I already buy (a few) bags of the pine bark mulch which is stacked right beside the bags of larger pine bark chunks at Lowes Builder Supply. HD probably also sells it. I use it mostly for blueberries planted in my already very acid soil so I can conveniently screen it for finings and then use the larger stuff for the blueberries.

I have never heard of Turface, can you suggest where it might be purchased in a bag light enough to carry (say 40 lbs)? If it's an aggregate for concrete, I can look there today at Lowes when I go this afternoon.

Thank so much; I am a retired engineer and certainly enjoy learning why I have problems AND how to fix them.

Paul

T,
What would serve as a "mineral fraction" amendment to my current RBS?

I will use my new found knowledge to re-pot my 4 yr old LSU Purple fig that is certainly rootbound after two years in its big pot. I will have to wait until I eat all the figs though. Perhaps I can limp along by giving it a small shot of Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 (if I can locate it).

Paul

I'm trying to figure out what the 3-6-9 photo might be, Paul. Maybe I'm missing something obvious. The closest I can come is 9-3-6 fertilizer, but that doesn't seem right ........ I don't screen the bark for the 5:1:1 mix, but I have several suppliers that provide it with particles 3/8 & under, which is perfect. For the gritty mix, I buy pre-screened fir bark from an orchid supply house in CHI. It comes in 1/8-1/4, which I consider to be about as good as it gets for that soil.

For Turface MVP (aka 'Allsport' - you won't find it at any big box stores or masonry supply stores), try any of these 3 John Deere Landscapes dealers in Raleigh:

2205-101 Westinghouse Blvd, 919-875-8533
8925 Midway West Rd, 919-420-0145
8850 Westgate Park Drive, 919-881-2041

or try

E&S Soil & Peat in Rocky Mount, 252-443-5016

I can't tell you where to buy Gran-I-Grit in your area, but it's mined in your back yard (Mt Airy, so it shouldn't be TOO hard to find. ;o) Try rural feed stores or farm supply stores/elevators that cater to retail.

Repot your fig in the spring after bare-rooting and root pruning.

Gymgirl - the mineral fraction of your soil could be native topsoil, sand, Turface, calcined DE, pumice or Haydite - if you can find it about the same size as Turface ...... lots of choices.

Al

Tapla,
Would you mind viewing this site and letting me know what the closet "mineral fraction" amendment would be?

Thanks!

http://www.livingearth.net/products-and-services/mulch-and-soil/would be?

There's nothing there, but let me explain. A mineral fraction is desirable because it helps ensure drainage as the organic component of the soil breaks down into increasingly smaller particles, and it also helps ti minimize shrinkage, which can be considerable when your RB soil is primarily organic.

I did a little looking around & I think I found the website you tried to link me to. It looks like the 'sharp sand' would be closest to being the best choice. If water retention is an issue, or if you think hydrophobia (water repellency) will become an issue as your soil dries down, I would encourage you to add some Turface or calcined DE to the soil. Unlike sand, they both absorb water readily, even when completely dry, and can make a big difference in breaking the hydrophobic tendency of dry organic soils.

Al

Al, love all your helpful info -- really like the idea of doing my own soil mix as I'm so often disappointed with what I purchase at my limited local sources (central TX, out in the middle of...).

A couple of nitpicky questions: do you sift the peat for the 5-1-1? What use do you make of the "culls" from all the sifting down? I've a bucket of turface and grit itty-bitty pieces.

Still getting my head straight about fertilizers, micronutrients, gypsum, lime, etc., plus trying to find same without prohibitive shipping $$.

The closest I've found to pine bark "fines" is Evergreen soil conditioner at Lowe's (located reasonably close by Texas standards).

Thanks again for all your valuable help and information. MG

Lol - actually, I have an Asian friend who tells me often that I have the white man's stick, so I do screen it, but it's really not so much for size ..... I push it through 1/2" screening just to make sure there are no really big chunks. It's easy for me because I'm all set up to do it (see the picture), but it's not really necessary if you sort of watch for the chunks.

If I was sifting bark for the gritty mix, I'd use the fines in the 5:1:1 mix or add them to beds/garden/compost. I use from dust to 3/8 in the 5:1:1 mix, and I've always been lucky enough (& and I've been doing it long enough that I've developed lots of sources) to find the right size bark, w/no screening required, for both soils, There's never a shortage of uses for the bark fines. Turface fines I save for hypertufa projects or add them to my raised nursery beds. It's an excellent soil amendment for that.

Thanks for the kind words, TG.

Al

T,
Not only are you knowledgeable, but you also have CLEAN tools, and dovetailed wood! Sheesh.

So, when are you gonna start your beginner's shop class? Sign me up!

The corner joints are 'half-laps' - thanks for appreciating the little extra effort it took to make them. ;o)

Al

See, a woodshop expert, too. Al, it amazes me the little things I notice...and appreciate.

Thanks gymgirl, this one is for tapla!!!!!!!Have been gardening the same property for 25 years and have about 85% of the soil in the beds all potting soil from lots' of transplanting. it is the LC1 that is 80% canadian peat moss and perlite and some type of wetting agent. It drys out very quickly, what can I do to bulk up my soil? Thanks, Annette

I don't know what LC1 means, but I would add a good measure of sand and some Turface, or calcined DE (ask) to help with water retention. I'd mix in some pine bark each year as well. The end result in a year or two would be a soil that looks just like the picture upthread. My RBs are extremely productive & full of all sorts of soil life. You can actually see the excellent tilth and friability of the soil in my hand.

A bonsai nursery bed:

Al

LC1 is made by
Sunshine it's a professional growers mix that I use in my plant business to pot up perennial seedlings that I sell. I always plant out new things in certain beds and tha is why they are so full of that soil. Any suggestions on how to break up large pieces of pine bark like 2X3 foot pieces, have 6 50' pine stumps in my backyard that have been dead for 10 years that the bark is falling off from. Had a wicked storm that took the tops off, they werre 80' trees, anyway I tried to run over the pieces with my car can break them into 3" by maybe 6-8" pieces but that's it.I'll gooogle the turface and see where I can get it. Would playbox sand work? Thanks Annette

T,
What does "tilth" and "friable" mean?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Describing tilth is a way of assessing, often by feel and by eye, the general physical characteristics that make a soil fit or not so fit for growing, though 'tilth' can take into account the chemical/nutritional characteristics as well.

Friability gauges the soils ability to maintain aggregate particles and how readily those aggregates break into smaller pieces - especially after the soil has been subjected to wet/dry cycles and or compression/compaction.

Al

I read the Wikipedia definition of "friability," and came up with, "it's how the cookie crumbles!"

As an example, Wikipedia listed crackers as being "friable."

Thanks!

Kobwebz - sorry I missed your post earlier. I just wanted to be sure everyone knows we're talking about raised bed soils when I say that sandbox sand is ok for raised beds, but probably not a good idea for container soils unless it's a small fraction & the volume of large particulates in the rest of the soil is large enough that the sand won't have a significant negative impact on aeration.

As far as I can tell, the John Deere Landscapes dealers in Peekskill (914-736-9056) and Mahwah, NJ (201-529-5250) are the closest to you. Ask for 'Allsport'.

I can't help you with the bark. You're apt to find it at large nursery ops & sometimes at big box stores packaged under names like Pine Bark Mulch or Pine Bark Soil Conditioner. You could run yours through a chipper until the size is right (see pic above).

Al

All of my beds are in the ground, I don't do container or raised beds.Thanks for all the great info. A

FYI:
Nature's Helper soil conditioner -- check www.hdbulk.com/ for your area.
Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 on Amazon (from another supplier).

Al: can't locate info re sifting sizes for ingredients:
Gritty:
Pine bark - 1/4"
Grit and Turface - insect screen/tea strainer

5-1-1:
Pine bark - 1/4"
Peat - 1/2"
Perlite - as is

Any corrections? Thanks.