Apropos of Nothing v.9

It's time for you all to get some sun, Jan. Fingers crossed here, too.

Wish we could blow some of our spring your direction, Jan. You have had a really hard winter. Hope that "S" does not materialize.

Oh Jan so sorry about your weather! Here in Portland, and I'm sure in Wash as well, we all go nuts when the sun is shining. And today it is shining! What a good day to take my dog for a long walk and to play in the garden. Actually, my Koka is recovering from an attack by another dog. Two days ago we were walking our usual route around the neighborhood and as we passed a woman with her dog (a big pit bull) on leash, her dog lunged at mine and clamped his teeth on Koka's snout, then proceeded to fling her back and forth in the air. The woman just screamed and I had to yell at her to help me pull her dog off with the leash. It was not easy to get that dog to release his clenched jaw but we finally did it. Then the woman, after beating her dog, ran away with her pooch without even asking about my poor terrified dog. Koka has puncture wounds that go through her snout into her mouth, and a few more wounds on her side. I immediately took her to the vet and they cleaned the wounds well since you shouldn't suture punctures, and she is on an anti-inflammatory and an antibiotic. I try to be open-minded about pit bulls and that woman should not have ANY dog if she beats them with the leash. But to have that dog out in public is stupid. Suppose I had been with a little grandchild who ran up to pet that dog? Or what if her dog had pulled off the leash? The vet said that Koka is a very very lucky dog. I am going to hunt the neighborhood for that woman, and she will not be so lucky when I find her! I am not a violent person, but I can muster up a few nasty words when I need to.
Oh things are sprouting and blooming!

Oh, Judi. What an awful experience. Poor Koka. And I do have some sympathy for the other dog - beatings and no socialization, clearly. Doesn't do much for the reputation of pit bulls, either. My neighbor and her son had to pull two pit bulls off her dog when Maggie was attacked at a park where her husband was playing softball. The owner of the pit bulls was watching her husband play on the same team. She was absolutely worthless in corralling them after they broke loose from their leashes. The responsibility really belongs with the human.

I think it's not a bad idea to carry mace when you go on walks (or even a little ammonia water to sting the eyes) or go to dog parks.

Hope you both heal from the trauma and that Koka's bite wounds are feeling better soon. It also might not be a bad idea to report this as that dog is indeed dangerous. I'm guessing that he does have human bite inhibition (little comfort, I know), but then again, there's no telling. And the authorities often need to have multiple cases before they can do anything.

It's one thing for the owner to apologize and pay for your vet bills and re-assure you that she's going to take steps to prevent it from happening again. But for someone who just takes off, I think reporting her is appropriate.

Judi,

Your poor baby! And poor you to have to watch your loved pup go through such an experience.

Although there is a spot in my heart for all dogs, I honestly am not very fond of pits. IMHO, their poor reputation has come about for a reason. I agree with Kathy that it's not necesarily the fault of the animals entirely... poor owners don't help one bit. None of the pit bulls that I have met have seemed very bright, and combine that with the fact that the majority of people I have seen who choose to have them as pets are not qualified to raise any kind of a furry responsibly... a concoction for trouble. Running away after such an instance leads me to believe that that woman fits right into this poor owner catagory. I would not hesitate one second regarding reporting the woman and her dog if you can find out who she is.

Hope you both recover from the experience quickly!

I was a cop for 10yrs..Mace is completely ineffective on dogs. Pepper spray is better but not much. You just make them mad because you sprayed something in their face...and the mace blows back on you :)


Please report them. Even if you can't find them. Something needs to be on record regarding a description and an area in case that dog does go after a human.

Poor Koka. Is she going to be okay? Punctures are dangerous.

G.

Wouldn't mace sprayed directly in the eyes help you to "unhook" them or at least blind them to give you advantage in the situation?

So sorry for both of you. You certainly didn't need to cope with that nastiness. Very best wishes for Koka's fast recovery. Poor baby. Take pictures of her before she heals and report it to the police.

Further 'PARTY" info will be posted on the Willow's greenhouse thread.

Oh my!!! Poor Koka and poor Judi. I think I would be fuming, too. Rapid healing vibes coming your way.

I am happy to say that Koka is seeming almost normal. The vet has all the info and pics of her injuries in case I find out who the owner is and/or where she lives. At any rate, Koka was able to eat today and when I took her for a walk she was excited. Yesterday she did not want to leave the house. She has been glued to my side so when I went out to do errands I took her with me. She sleeps next to my bed and several times during the night she got up and pushed at the mattress and wanted a little love. Poor thing! I am going to get bear spray, which is supposed to work better than mace, but I need to make sure it won't cause permanent eye damage. Several neighbors saw what happened so they are helping me find the woman. I used to be neutral about pit bulls, but after I saw how this one grabbed hold of Koka and would not let go, and flung her around in the air, and heard the vet say how unpredictable they are even if they are well trained, well, now I am no longer neutral. If you have a pit bull you have to be d#!*! sure it does not have the opportunity to harm another animal or person. A muzzle would be a good idea. I am going to call animal control tomorrow - even though I have no info. Maybe there has been another incident with this dog (with the owner, really - it's the human's fault) and a report already filed. Anyway, I am so thankful that Koka will be ok.

Jan, is it warming up for you just a little? The crocuses are blooming and I thought of you - buried under snow.

Whew. I'm so glad that Koka is okay physically and that you're able to get her out and about emotionally. Dog attacks aren't normal dog behavior and this is obviously as traumatic and experience as she could have had. Interesting information about the bear spray - please share what you find out.

Sadly, I have met some sweet, sweet pit bulls. But if they come from a line that's been bred to fight or carelessly bred, then they'll have temperament issues just like any other breed. And that grab on and hold thing is just not something you come back from. People overlook small dog bites all the time -- you can't overlook these.

Sounds like you've got it all covered. I do hope you get some reimbursement for the vet bills. I used to not be a very confrontational person, but I learned pretty quickly at the dog park to say, "Get control of your dog NOW," when I spied trouble brewing and an owner who was clueless. Sometimes I want to say that to people about their kids . . .

"Sometimes I want to say that to people about their kids..." LOL I have felt that way occasionally!

There is a great group of dogs that frequent our local dog park and Koka loves it there. The dogs all know each other and they all get along and have a fun time. Koka loves other dogs but I want to wait until her wounds are healed before taking again. The vet felt badly that the pit owner did not stick around so she reduced my bill from over a $100.00 to $70.00, and that was very kind. It's not so much the $$$, but the behavior of the owner that makes me angry!

Wow. My [soon to be former] vet charges $70 to make an appointment for you. Everything else (bandags, in office meds, take home meds) is on top of that. And I can't imagine them reducing anything. They tried to biopsy a tumor they recently found on Nick and charged me for the slide. I paid $180 I think and I didn't even have an actual office visit or a definitive diagnosis. Grrrr.

I love my vet. It is actually a big clinic where I would feel confident taking Koka or a cat in case of an accident or bag illness. They have imaging capability and an OR, and it is very clean. I have seen two different vets there and have liked them both. The vet I saw when Koka was bitten was so sweet - she got down on the floor to talk to Koka and she was very soothing. The clinic is Rose City Veterinary here in Portland. We are fortunate to also have Dove Lewis emergency pet hospital and they have ICUs for really sick animals, and are open 24 - 7. When she gave me the discount she said she does not want to discourage anyone from bringing their animal in if they are injured or sick. Very sensible!

That's very cool. I loved my vet and felt like my pets were getting the best care there. But then it just seemed like the vets got more distracted (I really believe they were being pressured to be more profitable) and then the owner sold out to a big chain. Vet techs left, vets left - it's really just got the name now. I don't want to go to a big chain and the best vets are just too far for me to be practical. I've just found that there's a family-owned vet in Redmond and I'm going to make an appt to interview them.

That having been said, with Microsoft, etc. everything is way too expensive here anymore. Property taxes are outrageous. I'm starting to thing that it might just be time for me to think about NOT retiring here . . .

Oh poor Koka! I'm so sorry that happened! How traumatic for both of you. There is just no excuse for any of it. Frankly, Pit Bulls are the only dogs I am afraid of. We have a large dog park here and our dogs love the park. We love to take them, too, but when there are any pit bulls there, I am very nervous about it, even though we have never had a bad experience. One just never knows, because they are so unpredictable. I'm not sure if there is any such thing any more as a 'well bred' one. Aren't they a fighting breed in the first place? All I can say is when I see one, even on a leash, I give it a wide berth. And I am a dog lover.
I am so glad that Koka is okay. That is very, very lucky.

Katie, those charges are outrageous.

Glad to hear Koka is doing okay. Kudos to your vet for reducing charges.

Thanks, Judi, for thinking of us out here as you look at your bloomin beauties.. On a lighter note, it is already 39 here and sunny so more melting today. However, we still can't see the ground. Maybe later today.

You betcha! Come walk in the bamboo! That will be fun!
Judi so glad to hear Koka is recovering. Mismanaged dogs are a real problem!
Last week I went out in my yard to burn yard waste and was immediately confronted by 2 lab pit bull dogs belonging to the neighbors who weren't home. They are usually in a fenced enclosure but had escaped. I have no fear of dogs but these animals were very threatening, hackles up and growling. I was alone at home and after calling my husband I called 411 and was connected to animal control with whom I left a message. They were prompt in their response and called me back to let me know that they don't respond to county situations and advised me to call 911. All this time I was cornered holding a metal rake in case the dogs decided to charge. The dogs left to return their own yard briefly and I was hoping the situation had ended, but within 10 minutes they were back so I called 911. After 14 rings the dispatcher answered asking for my location and said she would call for animal control....all this time the dogs were barking and I was having trouble hearing her exact words. After about 30 minutes the dogs left once more and didn't return until later that evening when a motorist stopped in my driveway wondering to whom the dogs belonged. Since then I have contacted the owners and have a plan if that should happen again. But I never got a response or return call from anyone.
If I had ended up as a "News Headline" that day, I am wondering whose responsibility would this be!
I am hoping that this is not business as usual and that my taxes are better spent.
I sent an e-mail to Emergency management and got a call 5 days after the incident from the 911 supervisor with an apology and a promise to counsel the operator that took the call, stating that after reviewing the recording that I had clearly stated that I was trapped by the dogs.
Since then I have heard of at least 2 more incidents where the 911 dispatcher had failed to send for animal control. Thank god Koka and I survived!

Wow Linda, what a terribly frightening experience! I'm so sorry you had to go through that. And also sorry to hear that you got no help after calling 911 and animal control. That is just not right. When I lived in San Francisco pit bulls were banned from the city after several people were killed. One of those people was a woman who was in the hallway of her apartment building and simply going home when two pit bulls belonging to her neighbor mauled her to death while her partner watched helplessly. The thing I don't understand is, there are so many kinds of dogs to choose from - why choose a pit bull?
Koka loves other dogs and the dog park, and today I will take here there for the first time since the attack. She seems back to normal now so I'm positive that she will be ok with the other dogs.

Linda - That is astounding. It's one thing for dogs to be protective of territory, but to leave their territory and threaten humans is a sign of some really problematic dogs. Again, there is a distinction between human aggression and animal aggression. If these animals were off their own territory and threatening humans without being provoked, then I believe there is no question but that they should be put down. I think that responsible dog owners/breeders would agree. I think you should call the newspaper or maybe even one of the tv stations. This kind of thing is getting more attention right now. Scary!

Judi - If you're talking about the same incident I'm thinking about, it wasn't Pit Bulls. I think they were Dogo Argentinos, a mastiff-type breed, which meant that they were also huge animals. There so many kinds of breeds out there that can be problematic, it just seems like most of them attack and then walk away - they don't finish people off.

I think that, rather than try to ban all the 'scary' breeds (GSDs have issues, as do Rottweillers, as do Doberman Pinschers, as do Border Collies, etc . . .), we should require specific standards for their containment, public exposure, care, training, breeding, etc. and hold the humans accountable when something happens.

The first Pit Bulls bred weren't problems to humans - it's been the irresponsible breeding (I know, I know, here I go again about people breeding without understanding what they're breeding) of well-meaning and not-so-well-meaning people and improper evaluation and socialization of dogs that is the problem.

Katie59 the incident I was talking about definitely involved pit bulls, and that incident led to the ban of pits in SF. I think it is the unpredictability of pit bulls that is the problem. According to my veterinarian, who has lots of pit bulls as patients, no matter how well trained they are, they are still unpredictable. She also said that once they decide to attack they cannot be dissuaded, and therein lies the problem. After my experience, I will avoid pit bulls. I love all kinds of dogs, but not so much those!

:-)

Judi, glad to hear both you and Koka are doing well. Hope the dog park is enjoyable today for both of you.

I think it's an excellent question: with all of the different kinds of dogs available, why choose a pit bull?
Linda, that is very, very scary. I hope something is done about those dogs. Something that involves holding the neighbors accountable for their animals.

Take the time to watch this. It will weird you out . . .

http://www.ted.com/talks/keith_barry_does_brain_magic.html

I'm a cat person, but I don't dislike dogs, and I'm not generally afraid of them. In fact, I kind of like them and may even get a dog someday-but it will have to be able to get along with the cats. :) Pitbulls, though, make me very uneasy. They don't seem smart, and they are very hard to read. I've known several really sweet Dobies, and some nice GSD's-and one scary,crazy one. With the GSDs and the others, I think that training is a lot more of it, although I have heard that there are some GSD's bred to be much more excitable and quicker to react to be used for "protection" work, and that's a little scary. I didn't know there were issues with Border Collies? I thought they were just high intelligence, high energy dogs that need a purpose in life or they will find their own entertainment?

Denver also bans pitbulls, or they did a few years ago. IF you move there with one you have something like 30 days (or 30 days after the city finds out, I suppose) to get rid of it, find it a home elsewhere, or they will confiscate and euthanize them. There have been people trying to get that rule overturned and I don't know if they've succeeded or not.

I've been doing some reading about dogs lately and somewhere I read something that it used to be that people were trying to breed OUT the unpredictability and meanness from the pits, but now there are people trying to breed it IN, for fighting, and there are now some that go way beyond unpredictable to uncontrollable viciousness-worse, if you add animal abuse. The unpredictable, dominant, dangerous ones used to be culled from the breeding programs, but not anymore. As part of that, there was something to the effect that it's possible that in some places lots of the rescue pitbulls up for adoption are failed fighting dogs that were just dumped on the street and then picked up by animal control.

Has anyone else read Temple Grandin's "Animals Make us Human" book? She has a really interesting section about dogs in it. Part of what she talks about is the changes that dogs have gone through as they were bred to be more what we wanted and further from their ancestor, the wolf. One fascinating thing (that I can't quote in full) is that one thing that's different with dogs is the loss (or relative loss) of the instinctual submissive behaviors in some breeds of dogs. Apparently, wolves have a much wider range of submissive behaviors that they use to disarm a situation before it leads to a fight. Also, that dogs mature more slowly than wolves-part of our breeding them to be more puppylike is that they are, literally, more puppyllike for longer. And, that with the loss of the natural submissive behaviors there's also a loss of understanding of those behaviors by the dogs, so if they see a submissive behavior, they may not understand it. This might be part of the problem with having domestic dogs fight at the dog park.

I've always been a mutt dog person and my current companion is supposedly a boxer-shepard mix (who knows for sure, she came from the local shelter). She is absolutely the sweetest dog I've ever had, but folks always want to peg her as being part pit. I'm not sure why, but I suspect it is a macho thing. Don't quite get it.

Kathy, that was just wild!

Susybell, That is some interesting info on dogs. I will have to look for that book.

Bonehead, AWwwwww! What a cutie! People probably think Pit due to the squarish head, as the pits are way more common than the boxers and mastiffs and others with the blocky look.

Sun's coming up and it looks like it is going to be another beautiful day (once it gets over the 34 degrees part)! Time to play garden cleanup!

Susybell that is interesting info from that book. I want to read it! My dog, An American Indian dog, is a descendant of the dogs from the Chinook tribes, which were dogs that came Russia, over the Bering Strait to Alaska and interbred with coyotes and maybe wolves. She is smart, loyal, and interacts with other dogs in such a sweet way. If another dog at the dog park seems dominant or aggressive, she immediately rolls over on her back. She also avoids looking another dog in the eyes until she gets to know them, and occasionally she avoids looking a person in the eyes so she must sense something threatening in that person. I think I'm too trusting with people I don't know so I am learning to pay attention to Koka's signals. AND she loves my two cats. Koka was fine at the dog park, and it was great to see her having fun. However, she did not let any other dog get close to her face, I guess because it must still be a little sore.

I have heard that there are more human bites from German shepherds than any other dog, but the difference is the type of attack from pit bulls. I have no idea if that's true or not. I like German shepherds - the ones I know are very sweet and mellow - but then there are not many dogs I don't like!

Bonehead, what a sweet pooch!

I'm a big fan of Temple Grandin and have read several of her books. Animals in Translation is her first one. She's a high-functioning autistic who made her name working with the cattle industry to make their facilities more humane. She believes that autistic people and animals think much in the same way with their inability to filter out external stimulae.

I'm in total agreement with what she says about natural pack behavior, though the idea of breeding out instinctively submissive behaviors is one I struggle with. I believe that socialization is as much taught as it is instinctive. Else why would we see so many dogs raised in single dog homes who don't understand how to interact with other dogs? Well-balanced and well-socialized dogs will go out of their way to avoid a full-blown fight. Pack order, once established, doesn't change much (as opposed to cats). There is a saying that a dog who knows his place in the pack is always happier than a dog who doesn't. Even the lower pack dogs get to eat and mate. They just have to wait longer. And pack hierarchy is definitely determined both by chemical and personality characteristics.

I would still say that the problem is still more with the people who AREN'T culling dogs out of breeding programs - they're just breeding for pretty colors or the new style. GSDs are becoming more and more obsessive compulsive, by my observation. I have a friend who paid $5000 for a GSD. She got this dog after researching and going to a very fancy-pants breeder. They had just lost their wonderful GSD to degenerative myelopathy and degenerative disk disease, both known issues with GSDs and had spent time and money on spinal surgery and rehab for him to no avail. I told her to check with the very nice (but still "back yard") breeders from whom they had gotten him and it turns out that both parents and grandparents had been affected. They were actually breeding "for" these conditions without even thinking about it and perpetuating expense and heartbreak to all the people who took their dogs. That's not to mention what they were doing to the breed. The best gene pools for GSDs now come from Europe because Americans have basically "ruined" ours (meaning that it's hard to find a dog that isn't a carrier for a multitude of problems) . . .

Anyway, the $5,000 dog can't interact with humans for very long and paces the perimeter of the yard unless he is physically stopped. These poor people have had two bad experiences with issues in this particular breed.

My point is that this has happened to some extent with EVERY breed because it's too easy to breed dogs. Most well-meaning breeders aren't tracking genetic history and testing for genetically-transmitted problems and I would say that most people don't really even understand their own dogs' motivation. Border collies are "nippers" because that's how they've been bred to work. They are notorious face biters and the biting is unpredictable, but it doesn't mean they're bad dogs, it means that kids shouldn't have their faces down by the Border Collies. They can also be obsessive compulsive and developing bad fear-biting tendencies when the wrong training methods are used with them. Borzoi aren't known for biting humans, but many cannot ever be around cats, even cats they are raised with because their drive for prey is just too high. Some can't even be around small dogs, which is weird (i.e. pretty extreme) because dogs generally have different bit inhibitions for prey, other dogs (their own species) and humans. Some dogs exhibition great discretion - my dogs hate coyotes, but do great with other domestic dogs. That's a trait I'd like to have, but some people just want dogs who hate coyotes . . .

Interesting point about fighting pitbulls. I think that fighting pit bulls couldn't be used if they had no bite inhibition for people. They couldn't be handled by the humans who are using and training them. The bite inhibition that is being bred out of them is bite inhibition against other dogs. Terriers are a perfect example of dogs that were bred to kill. They were bred solely for the purpose of exterminating vermin for the humans. They are insanely brave, even against unbelievable odds, which you'd have to be if you were going down a badger hole. And yet, nobody is talking about banning terriers (though, to be specific, pit bulls are terriers).

IMO it's more that there are so many pit bulls because they're popular right now, there are those that are being bred to be more aggressive (ie bite first, ask questions later), they're more popular with people who use violence for training and so are being trained by fear, and finally that the damage done when they do bite is much greater than what would be done by a Jack Russell or single bite dog. It's not so much that other dogs don't bite - there are just more of these and they do more damage when they do.

Judi, I'd recommend that true story Bringing Light to Shadow as a great way to learn about dog calming signals that you describe Koka using. Turid Rugaas has been talking about this for years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj7BWxC6iVs

Okay, now I'm going out to garden.

Your love of dogs shines through katie.

My back hurts, my fingernails are trashed, my hands and arms are full of rose thorn wounds, I look like hell............ but I smell like dirt and sunshine, and I am as content as I have been in a long time!

What a beautiful day! Time to eat something and rest for a bit!

"One of those people was a woman who was in the hallway of her apartment building and simply going home when two pit bulls belonging to her neighbor mauled her to death."

I remember that. It was very famous. It was horrible.

I lost a beagle once to a pit. In the process he saved a friend's life. She is a dwarf and was out in her front yard when the pit attacked her. The beagle jumped in and gave her time to get away.

That being said...I had a beagle once that was a problem. We found him as a stray so knew nothing of his history. He was a biter. We were making "the" decision on him when he got away from my son and ran out in the street and God made the decision. I read a while back that the #3 dog on the list for facial bites are Cockers. Not surprising.

Dogs are a product of many things. Some breeds are predisposed to aggressive protection and/or inbreeding for the same and some are treated so badly they are not fit for society. You have to be careful and no mater how cute use common sense in approaching.

Linda.... I love dogs very very much.....but I would have shot them.....and I would consider at least putting a baseball bat in that garden somewhere you can get at it fast. If you have doubts about that, get a carriage whip and practice a little. They can cover a good 10ft and give you a safety zone. I had to use one on a stray dog once. It grabbed my cat and the whip happened to be right there. That dog dropped Jewel like a hot potato.

Now if I can my old lab who's recent diet is now allowing her to get on the COUNTER..to quit stealing tomatoes and eggs....grrrrrrrrr......I liked her better FAT.

Ginget

What a beautiful day!! After doing my "dog chores" - picking up food, picking up a couple of dog beds at Costco, picking upd dog meds from the vet, petting all the dogs who were out today with their owners - I was able to get some good time in the yard today. Yippee!! And there's more dirt in my future tomorrow.

Okay, so I put the dog beds down, covered them with clean fleece blankets right in from of the fire - and Topaz (my little disabled cat) has claimed the center of one of them for himself. He's so cute I can hardly make him move . . .

A carriage whip, I wouldn't have thought of that but it is an interesting idea! It would definitely take anyone by surprise.

Portland, Koka sounds like a very even tempered dog if she can go through being attacked and less than a week later be at the dog park enjoying the company of other dogs. That is very impressive.

There is no way I would make that cutie move! I'm sure the dogs and the cat can work this out...

This message was edited Feb 20, 2010 8:17 PM

IMO dog behavior is a combination of natural instinct and behavior training - kind of like people. And you must know the characteristics of the dog you are choosing. If you want a dog that is social and likes to play with other dogs, then don't get a dog for it's looks - get one that is social by nature. If you want a dog that will maul another animal or a human to death, then take responsibility and keep that dog confined. And if you choose a breed that is known for being unpredictable, don't think that you can change that. My Koka is a wonderful, smart, gentle, and social dog, but I've seen how she reacts to chickens, and I will never let her get close to chickens because she will consider them prey. I knew that when I got her, and I accept that. It amazes me that some people do more research when they buy a washing machine than when they choose a dog.

Beadmom - good advice for Linda. But I wonder if hitting a pit bull with a bat would only make it more agitated? You would have to swing to kill!

I had a wonderful cocktail in a restaurant tonight. A martini made with lemonade, vodka, and pureed raspberries. Oh so good and everyone kept taking sips so I had to order another. :)

That sounds entirely yummy! Actually, it sounds like summer!

Katie59 what a cute kitty. Clearly he owns that spot!

Thank you. He's an awesome cat. I'm so glad I took him and his sister in.

My dogs may be sighthounds, but clearly they are pushovers when it comes to cats . . .

What are they so intently observing on the other side of the fence?