General Discussions - 2010 - Chapter 29

Jim and Lee;
I went back a few forums and found one of Kents posts.
I think it may be helpful in preparing your bales and a couple methods possible.
Don't shoot me Kent,,,,,,, Just trying to be helpful! lol

Russ

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Kent's post

Sorry I forgot to check the date on this one



I've been a traditional gardener all my life, but tried straw bale gardening last year as well.

I tried several varieties of tomatoes, peppers, cukes, squash, and zucchini in the bales and they all did outstanding.

You can start your garden with seeds if you use some topsoil on top of the bales, but I transplanted all of my vegetables from flats and trays purchased from local nurseries.

I initially used 20 bales of wheat straw. The plants in the wheat straw were doing so well that I got 10 more bales of oat straw to see how that would do. (Pine straw won’t work.)

I recommend getting bales that have been tightly baled. The oat straw bales I bought were lighter and baled looser than the wheat straw, and I learned that they don’t hold as much water. I paid about $2.50 for each bale.

Use bales that have synthetic twine if you can find them. The twine won’t rot and it will hold the bales together longer. If the bales use regular twine, that’s no problem. You may have to put a stake at the end of the bales. The bales I used had regular twine, and they started to rot and break, but I arranged 10 in each row, so the bales tend to hold each other together.

I oriented my bales with the strings off the ground. You can do it either way, but I like the twine off the ground. The transplanting seemed easier with the bales oriented with the strings off the ground. You can decide which way to orient yours.

If you make more than one row of bales, put them wide enough apart so your lawnmower can get between them. And because you’ll be watering them, I recommend placing the bales where the water will drain away from your house or away from where you’ll be walking.

How many plants per bale? Try two tomato plants per bale, three peppers, two squash, two sets of cucumbers.

Be prepared to stake the tomatoes, peppers and any tall growing plants. I recommend 6-foot stakes for the tomatoes. I used tobacco sticks last year, but they are too short. My tomatoes grew way over the tobacco sticks. This year I'll be using stakes and a horizontal trellis and arch way-type trellis.

I didn’t plant any okra last year, but they will probably do well. You’ll definitely have to stake them. I don’t think corn will work too well. The plants will be too top-heavy. I water the bales in the morning and after sunset. You can’t over-water because any excess will just run out of the bales. Soaker hoses will work. The main thing is not to let the bales get dried out between watering.

I started out using some Miracle Grow once a week for a couple of weeks. Then I sprinkled in some 10-10-10. You don’t want to over fertilize.

The bales will start to sprout wheat or oat straw, but that is no problem. If the grass gets too much for you, just whack it off with a knife. I give my bales a “haircut” every so often with a steak knife. It takes no time at all.

One thing I’ve noticed—and this could be just a fluke—is I have not had to spray my plants with any pesticides such as Liquid Sevin. I haven’t had any worms, bugs or other pest bother my straw bale garden. Maybe it has something to do with the plants being off the ground.

Be prepared to use new bales each year. I don’t think they will be suitable for two years in a row. You can burn them, use them for mulch or bust them up and set new bales on them next year.

Preparing Your Bales

It takes 10 days to prepare your bales.

Days 1–3: Water the bales thoroughly and keep them wet.
Days 4–6: Sprinkle the bales with 1/2 cup of ammonium nitrate (34-0-0) per bale per day, and water it well into the bales. I didn’t have any trouble finding ammonium nitrate from my local ag-supply store. They sold it in 50-pound bags. I have heard, however, that some people have had difficulty finding it in more urban settings. Ask around. (See more about ammonium nitrate at the bottom of this page.)
Days 7–9: Cut back to 1/4 cup of ammonium nitrate per bale per day and continue to water it in well.
Day 10: No more ammonium nitrate, but do add 1 cup of 10-10-10 fertilizer per bale and water it in well.
Day 11: Transplant your plants into the bales. I used a spatula to make a crack in the bale for each plant. Place the plant down to its first leaf and close the crack back together as best you can.

Other straw bale references:

http://www.nicholsgardennursery.com/strawbales.htm
http://www.county.ces.uga.edu/chatham/hay_bales.htm
http://www.co.clay.mn.us/Depts/Extensio/ExAPHydr.htm


For those of you who may have physical problems doing tradtional gardening, you may want to try this method. Even wheel chair-bound folks could garden with this method.

I didn't invent this method, but I have become an avid proponent of it.

I'm adding a photo of a portion of my garden.

Regards and have a blessed day,

Kent Rogers
Deputy Sheriff
Wake County, NC
kent.rogers@earthlink.net

P.S. - the recipe for preparing your straw bales calls for a little Ammonium Nitrate (34-0-0). Because of some Homeland Security concerns, you will probably have to give your name and phone #/address to the Seller. Ammonium Nitrate is just a fertilizer-type catalyst that acts like vitamins for the microbes that help decompose the straw bale to make it a great host for the vegetables you're going to plant. Farmers/gardeners have been using this product for years. However, if you can't find any Ammonium Nitrate or don't want to purchase a 50 lb bag, just add a week or so weathering process to your bales before you add your transplants. Be sure to wait until all danger of frost is over for your area.


This message was edited Mar 20, 2006 3:30 PM

This message was edited Mar 20, 2006 3:40 PM

This message was edited Mar 20, 2006 3:44 PM

You did good Russ. LOL

Russ,
Thanks for bringing in all that information. It will be helpful.
Lee

Thanks Russ, that was a very thorough description of the process. I look forward to becoming a strawbaler! Is urea the same as amonium nitrate? I wonder if our local dairy where I plan onbuying the hay has some of that. Maybe the place that sells sod and has a small nursery.

NEW FOLKS: Welcome aboard.

Hope this helps.

Here's a link to a thread that has links to 2 of my articles on the basics:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/854417/

Note: I don't "pre-treat" my bales any more with any type of nitrate. Last year, I set the bales out a lot earlier and just kept them moist until my normal plant date around May 1st.

I call this the "slow-cooking" process or the "crock-pot" method. :-)

Using the nitrogen additives is like the "pressure-cooker" method.

And, this year I'm going to enclose my bales so I can recycle them and just add new straw as needed.

- - - - -

Russ: thanks for the help.


This message was edited Jan 31, 2010 8:28 AM

Kent, I'm going to use some straw bales that set out in late fall. I use these as a windbreak for my bee hives, so I figured by spring that they should be about right for planting?

Here in Inland Southern California I should be able to start planting in February even though official last frost date isn't till April. We had our first 100 degree day in April last year. I have tomato plants (started from seeds) that I planted black pots against a southwest wall that are full and flowering right now, even though we have nights in the 30's and 40's. Just planted some broccoli and brussels sprouts plants hoping I am not too late. Days in the 60's, but got close to 80 first week of Jan. (sorry, that was when so many of you were freezing yourselves).

So, if I put the bales out next week, do I water them daily? And they would be ready when? It would be great not to have to buy any chemicals.

qg, If I were you and could plan on planting in February, I would use the chemicals, as much as it is tempting not to, because it sounds like you should get your plants in the bales before they get root bound (pot bound) stunted, or leggy. (Also, it is too hard to get large enough holes for bigger plants if your bales are not decomposed enough). Been there, done that. Then, if it looks like you might get a cold night put something over them. a sheet, Remay, or something.

Next year, you will know which way to go. That way if you can count on the weather you won't need to use the chemicals. Make notes.

Jeanette

Quilty; Urea isn't quite the same, though it will work. It may be a little slower but it is a source of nitrogen, which you need to speed up the (cooking) I had to laugh when I was looking for ammonium nitrate. They had a surprised look, and said that was "bomb" making material, so I shared an article with them of straw bale gardening. They assured me that urea would do the job and it was much cheaper too.

Kent ; using an enclosure sounds like a great idea. I wonder how many years you can stack on new bales. Or were you meaning to take the bales apart and lay the slabs down on the old hay, and go from there?
Russ

After several years of stacking new bales on top of old ones, the bottom layer will just be plain compost that you could use in the rest of your garden, seems like.

Lynda

Yes, and I really doubt it is going to add much to the height. But, he can always add another board. Sounds like he got lots.

Russ: my plan is to always take the old straw and just pack it on top of other old straw. Then add new bales in the remaining spaces.

I also want to get some sawdust, let it leech out for a year and then use some of it to add to the old straw and let it all work itself out over time, adding both as I go over the next few years.

Kent, are you going to plant potatoes or anything in this pile? Guess it wouldn't take much to plant it, just toss them in while you are putting forkfulls on.

hi jenette-randbponder-irn39 snow is gone. i am looking for matt`s wild cheery &mexican flame vine. if you see any let me know. jlmcv45. jim

Found wheat straw at the local Ace Hardware.... $6.99 a bale. Seems high to me. Is this the norm in everyone's experience?
Thanks,
Mike

Hi Kent; Okay, if you keep that up you will wind up with a very good compost soil that you could use for starting seed on top of your bales.
No need for buying potting soil.
Around 30 years ago I had a small garden plow and an antique garden tractor. Plowed up the back yard an started a garden. Didn't do too bad but I could tell it needed improving. I used wood ashes, grass clippings, horse manure, chicken manure, saw dust, all the leaves I could gather and even put some lime on it one year. Now it is great for gardening, however it also grows great weeds too. lol
That and getting the work up higher was my reason for trying the bales.
I did discover I needed to leave room between the rows for my mower. "ha ha ha" I'm not sure what I will do this year though. I would like to be able to take more time away from the garden and do some traveling. I have to think on that a little more before I decide.
A happy straw bale garden to ya and a nice warm spring.
I'm still under a lot of snow and it don't look like we are going to loose the snow until late March. If we get any more snow storms like have been getting we will have to start hauling it out. I have several piles that I'm sure won't be totally gone even in May. Sure glad Al Gore invented global warming.

Yeah, Mike that's what I'm finding too. I may have to come up with a different plan of attack. Not sure what that will be yet.
Russ

Mike,
If you've got a Lowes nearby, check with them. Here in central Alabama they've got it year-round for $4.50 a bale.

randponder- We have a lot of horses around here, but they do not use straw, generally, for them. Bales of hay are needed as there are no 'fields of green' for horses around here and I do mean none. That probably makes the hay more $$. I found straw at the local dairy for 4.95. Never thought about Lowes.

If it's just time away you want to travel and not necessarily time away from the garden, you could travel when you have all that white stuff around there, at least if your want to go somewhere warm. If you're wanting to go to Europe, maybe not.

Hi all,
Yesterday I got in my pickumup and went over to the local horse stable and
came home with a small load of wood shavings and horse poo. Hey i'm retired,
and besides, the number of horses they have over there, an endless supply.
If I were younger, it would have been a bigger load. As it is I think the neighbors
are going to complain about the stink.
I was out in the back yard and I have about 6 old straw bales that are dead, for planting
as bales but would be great for old straw.
I am planning to mix the horse poo shavings with the straw in some bins for
planting. I will pack the mixture in some tubs the same as you would the grow boxes
you see advertised. I also have been collecting these plastic buckets you
see all over, easy to find behind most restaurants. I am going to try the same
thing in some of them.
Any Ideas.
Paul.

Paul; I am toying with an idea of using corn stalks. The farmers, some of them that is; bale them up in big round bales and use them for roughage.
A big bale like that is around $40.00 and that is about a ton. If I run that through my shredder and pack it in a raised bed I would think that may decompose as well, by adding just a little more nitrogen than you would hay bales. I will give that a try as I have some laying in the goat pen that they promptly trampled on and fertilized as well. Will have to let you know later, as I am still thinking on that issue.
As for buckets, I didn't ask how they done but a friend 5 miles from here hung a bunch of buckets on an old pipe and used them as topsy turvy tomato planters. Will have to check with him as to how well it worked.
I know that a 5 gal bucket is sufficient for patio toms. Not too sure about an heirloom tomato though.

Quiltygirl; No my traveling would be limited to a couple weeks at a time and just here in the USA. maybe to NC or TX. Then We also have a granddaughter and two great great grand babies, in WA and a trip like that would have to take in some fishing and camping, not to mention sight seeing. We are fortunate that all the rest of the grand children and families are within a couple hours drive. Of course I would like to spend a whole week fishing a good lake or stream. Or a canoe trip down a small stream and spend some time at each fishing hole along the way. I'm almost too much out a shape for that but I would still enjoy it.
Russ

Russ, you be careful.; You know those corn stalk roots could probably have rocks inside of them and a shredder would throw them at you!!! Get your other eye. Put a plate in the other side of your head.

Lonejack, maybe you ought to cover all that horse poo with the straw to keep the smell in so the neighbors don't complain.; LOL

We used one of those buckets for tomatoes. I really felt sorry for the plant. They just naturally want to grow upward. Didn't have many tomatoes. Think it used most of it's strength trying to grow up. LOL

Russ, if you find some reasonable straw in WA please let me know where. I didn't know you had grandbabies in WA. Where abouts?

They live about 40 miles up from Seattle, Goldbar is close by. Never been there but would like to make the trip. Their youngest, named after my mother and our daughter. haven't seen her yet. Right now I can't remember if she is number 19 or number 20 on the great granddaughters. Her mom is our first granddaughter. I'm not sure if there would be any hay or straw in that area or not. I may try have her hubby check around a little.
Oh these cornstalks have been cut off haven't seen any with roots still attached. How ever we have very few rocks near the surface here. but I am pretty doggone careful around that machine anyway.
Well guess I better go get some shut eye. Take care.
Russ

LOL Russ, that is a long way to go for hay or straw. Believe me, that stuff would cost you a lot more than you would save by hauling it back. Just the hassle to save a dollar or 2 a bale would not be worth it to me. If you want a trip, just go. Don't make excuses. However, it seems to me, that this time of year you are heading the wrong direction.

Yes, shredders are dangerous machines, and you are a dangerous worker bee.

I see Kent's Iowa article said 2-3 plants per bale. Seems like with the size of the bale and the recommended spacing for some of the veggies on the packets (or Mel Bartholomew's Square Foot Gardening) that more plants could go in one bale. Has anyone done this?

What about root veggies? I've seen potatoes addressed, but what about beets, carrots, onions, garlic? I am guessing radishes are too shallow.

I didn't see Kent's article about this, but I would put no more than 2 tomato plants, or 3 peppers, possible 3 cukes or squash but I personally wouldnt do roots. I would say, you do whatever you want. Everyone is not the same. What works for you may not work for me. probably be your opinion of what works vs my opinion. Just whatever we are satisfied with. So, to each his own.


I doubt very much if Kent is going to argue with you about it, or send out the plant police with a tape measure.

Plant police would use their whole ticket pad at my place!

Hmmmm, Wonder if I would qualify for that position? I have around a half dozen tape measures. Course I'm lucky if I find one when I need it!

Har Har Har

hi. jenette don!t know about (windows live mail) you can take what i dont know about a puter and write a best seller. jlmcv45 jim.

quiltygirl: I've never put less than 3 tomato plants/bale. I did put 4 one year but that's too much. 2 plants/bale is perfectly fine, also.

Plant police are not hard-core on this statute. They have bigger fish to fry.

I know, they just can't find their tape measure qg.

QG wrote;'I see Kent's Iowa article said 2-3 plants per bale. Seems like with the size of the bale and the recommended spacing for some of the veggies on the packets (or Mel Bartholomew's Square Foot Gardening) that more plants could go in one bale"

Some of that may depend on the varieties you plant. I plant the big 'ol heirloom tomatoes, which are indeterminate. I tried 3 plants per bale last year, and it was too much. They got all tangled up (they were trellised), and I suspect there was not enough air circulation, as I had more trouble with disease. My bush type squash plants were huge, and again, two was enough but the vining type I think I planted 3-4, with no problems, as they ran away from the bales.

lonejack wrote;"I am planning to mix the horse poo shavings with the straw in some bins for
planting. I will pack the mixture in some tubs the same as you would the grow boxes
you see advertised"

Lonejack, I've been told the fresh manure is too "hot" to use immediately. Do you know if mixing it with the straw would make it useable now? I have pet cows and chickens, and sure would be happy if they could pay their way even a little but. Well, the chickens do, but the cows???

Kent wrote;"my plan is to always take the old straw and just pack it on top of other old straw. Then add new bales in the remaining spaces."

I had a pretty unsuccessful garden last year, and I've blamed some of that on leaving the old bales in place, and re-using some, and putting new straw bales on top if some of the old more decomposed hay ones. I had a lot of insect problems that I hadn't had the year before. I had blamed it on the bugs/eggs overwintering comfortably in the nice warm hay :((. Maybe it was not from that? We had a wetter summer than previously, so maybe that was part of it. Even more diseases, which I also wondered about, as in the advice never to plant the same thing consecutively. I pretty much have tomatoes in the bales, and a few lesser veggies (sorry) like squash and beans. Not much way to rotate.
This winter has been much colder, so maybe that will help, but I basically scraped off the old bales (and that were'nt no picnic) and have begun again.
I guess time will tell *G*

The way I use manure, is to put it down in the fall. Then in the spring it is decomposed enough, Or at least I haven't had any problems with doing it that way. If I can, I like to mix it in when I put it down.
I just go by what the weather here allows. I have already put the manure on top of the snow, not thick enough to keep the snow from melting when the sun finally starts to warm us up. This being a difficult year for me, I haven't done anything toward prepping the garden. What manure I get this year from the goat pen I will just have to compost.
Hopefully I can really go after the garden this up coming season. Though I don't think I will have more than 1/2 doz bales this year. Lack of energy and funds.
So I will have more in the ground but I have a good source of grass clippings for mulching between the rows. With that I think I will get along for this year. Reserve the right to be wrong though. LOL
As far as manures go I have found chicken M - to be very hot,
Horse M considerably milder, pig a little hot and more smelly, Rabbit M, safe to use anytime. Although some plants should never use manure around, always use caution. Try to use only well rotted or composted manures.
Russ

Catmad's got a point. Better do some re-thinking.

The remains of last years bales, got spread over the rest of my garden, along with all the leaves I raked up. I was able to till most of them under.
This year, My plan is going to be experimental. I will have about 6 or 7 bales, and a raised bed and of course dirt. The sweet potatoes will go in dirt, I will have tomatoes in bales and in dirt. Watermelon will be in dirt.
Squash will go in dirt. If I can come up with a few more bales, I would like to try cabbage in bales. Yes I plan to be more diligent this year and keep ahead of all the bugs, rabbits and weeds. Also want to install a watering system for at least the raised bed. I will also get several pickup loads of sand, for one of the raised beds. Will go into more detail as the year progresses, will also have pictures. I'm hoping for decent weather when spring finally arrives.
R

I don't think horse poo would be too hot if used in small amounts.
The shavings I picked up was mostly shavings with some poo mixed in.
The stable changes their shavings almost daily so their horses stay
clean. I plan to leave this pile set for a while before beginning to use it.
I am going to get into my pickumup and go to a home truss manufacturer
and get some sawdust.
I will mix it with some garden soil and perlite for my mixture in my grow buckets
and my sharecrows. The straw bales will be bales or packed into boxes.
I am sure glad for this forum and the helpful hints. Thanks all.
Paul.