Discussion threads for Classifieds Ads, please!

This has come up several times on threads discussing the new guidelines for the co-op forum, so I thought maybe we could ask about it on its own thread.

One of the drawbacks (for both vendor and participants) in placing a Classified Ad for a "group buy" opportunity rather than supplying a DG co-op is the lack of discussion opportunity in the Classifeds forum, where "threads" consist on single advertisement posts.

A lot of the "fun" of some co-ops comes from the chat threads, where people talk about what they might order or recommend particular varieties to each other, etc. That discussion is fun for participants, and it may also drive up sales for the vendor... which in turn can mean bigger discounts for the participants.

I do understand that Classified Ads can't be like regular forum threads, because it wouldn't make sense to allow the ads to be edited (possibly changing the "deal" being offered) or added to willy-nilly by the vendor.

However, maybe there is some other way to link to a thread for questions & answers (answers from the vendor or from fellow DGers, both of which can be very valuable when it comes to culture issues), as well as for more general discussion of the products being offered.

Would it work to create a sister-forum for the Classifieds, maybe "Classified Chat" or "Classified Q&A?" Vendors could start threads on that forum and put links to them in their Classified Ad. Like the Classifieds, it would be a "commercial" forum, lifting the self-promotion restriction (eg, vendors could answer questions publicly in posts rather than only privately via Dmail).

There may be other ways to accomplish this, also.

What do you think?

I love the idea. It would be especially helpful to newbies, or anyone trying something different. For instance, I bought a ginger tuber, planted it, nothing ever "happened". It would be great to discuss this with someone who is knowledgeable.

Yep... and in the case of a sale on tropicals and gingers, getting good advice on how to grow them might encourage you to purchase & try them again. While you could always call/email the vendor with culture questions, sometimes you get better answers from other DGers (especially those growing under similar conditions).

Thanks for your input!

Actually, there have been quite a few times I've seen an interesting classified ad and wanted to ask something or have something clarified. Would be nice if we could do it right there on the thread, might help others with the same question. Save the vendor getting a dozen d-mails all asking the same thing. And when the ad is expired they all just go away with it.

I would hate to see them go away, though, when the ad expires. Good reference source. I look back at threads all of the time.

Great idea Jill ... Love the idea of a Classified's "Chat" or Classified "Q&A" thread, separate from the Classified Ad itself. It sure would be helpful to have something like that!

I agree with LynnWeidman. I also like to go back for reference purposes...and this is not possible with the Classified Ads.

I have only participated in one coop at Dave's, (Rosy Dawn Coleus) and it was great. The initial contact was between the hostess and the vendor. A flat discount of $1 /plant was offered to Dave's members in the form of a discount code. All communications after that could be between me (a coop participant) and the vendor. I entered my order and discount code, and the vendor shipped the plants to me at the discounted price. Great plants, great service, great coop. If ANYTHING went wrong, nobody could be blamed but me or the vendor, no middle-man (host/hostess).

Is there any way for this sort of thing to happen now? Is there anywhere where a vendor could just offer a discount to Dave's members? Can vendors place an ad in the classified section, or is it only open to DG members to sell their wares?

I don't participate in coops now because of the new rules.
1. I don't want another party (the hostess) to order for me. My order is nobody's business. In other words, too much room for error, and nobody's responsible
2. I won't give my money, financial information (credit card #, paypal,) to anyone other than a vendor.
3. I want any purchace mailed from vendor directly to me.

Karen

It would also be helpful in the case where a vendor is considering offering an item via group buy, but needs an idea of how many items might be sold before ordering the item or establishing a price.

Could this type of thread also be used by the purchasing membership to determine interest in a group buy? If so, how would that work for seeking a vendor to supply the buy? Would only vendors be starting these threads?

Karen, the sort of "co-op" you describe is now defined by admin & the committee as a "sale" or a "group buy" -- it can be offered as a Classified Ad (or via Marketplace), but it can't be a co-op.

I think only subscribing members can place Classified Ads, but the subscription price probably isn't a big stumbling block for most vendors.

Stormy, I like the idea of being able to do "interest" threads also for group buys... but I'm not sure how you could open a forum like I described for posting by the general membership (or subscribership) without opening the floodgate for all sorts of commercial postings... any ideas on how threads could be limited?

One possibility is that aspect of the AUP could simply be suspended for a commercial forum, but I'm not sure how we keep out "interest" threads for male enhancement products, etc... as has been said elsewhere, it's sort of a slippery slope.

Critter, maybe all interest threads would have to start out in the co-op forum. If the hosts can find a suitable vendor to do it within the rules of a co-op fine, it would stay in that forum. If not, it could then move over to the Classifieds. What do you think?

That sounds to me like it could work... but it leaves out vendors who want to offer great deals (and who might want to check first to see what sort of thing people are most interested in) and who are not first contacted by a prospective co-op host.

How would it leave out any vendors if the vendors are able to open an interest/chat thread in the classified forum? People would have to get used to checking both forums to look for new opportunities.

an interest thread determines interest. what is decided on the interest thread.........co-op or sale.......is just what happens on an interest thread. a group of people decide together the best way to go about what they are trying to do. if we're on an interest thread and we decide to do a co-op but still won't pass as a co-op thru the committee then we just take it to the classifieds. seems to me that even if we move to the classifieds WE STILL HAVE THE INTEREST THREAD and it could remain open for discussion even if we buy from the classifieds. what say you admin?

and on buying a classified............only members can buy an ad? is that right? can the host then (without being considered a vendor) BUY THE AD instead of the company buying it? somebody mentioned that before but i would have thought that that wouldn't work. if the host would be considered a vendor then could she ask a vendor member to buy the ad for her? maybe there is a vendor member who wants to buy from the proposed co-op/sale. what if there isn't? would that mean that the sale would have to go directly to the vendor...offsite altogether?

I'm sorry, Stormy, I thought you were suggesting that all interest threads start in the co-op forum (rather than in the CA forum).

I do see potential problems if vendors can post interest threads in a CA discussion forum before purchasing an ad... some may use that as a way to do free marketing and never "get around to" paying for & posting an ad. Limiting thread starters to those who have a current paid ad in the CA forum seems pretty strict but might avoid some issues.

I don't think purchasing a classifieds ad would make you a "vendor," in and of itself.

I think most vendors would be willing to pony up the cost of a classifieds ad and even of a subscription also if they're not already a member-vendor (it's pretty cheap as marketing goes).

critter i think it would. hehehe i think i was already told that. for the pnw i was going to buy an ad for denise so that i could help her. if i did i would have been called a vendor forevermore...quoth the raven. and i ain't no vendor. i just want what i want.

it's not the cost of an ad. that is minimal. who would mind paying 5.00 if it meant they could make thousands? and the benefit to us........not having viagra ads.........is immense. i love the classifieds myself.

to me........if you determine from an interest thread that you have to go to the classifieds then fine. you still have the interest thread. is that cheating? i don't see why you can't keep your interest thread open so everyone can ooh and aah on that thread while the group is buying from the classifieds. no need for dave to change a thing.

I wasn't sure if it was OK to chat about a "group buy" sale in the co-op forum or if we'd need a separate place for that sort of discussion (that is, a commercial forum). Then again, people do chat about some of the big iris sales in the iris forum -- what they're planning to order, what they'd recommend, etc.

So maybe you're right and we don't need another place to chat about classified ads... but still, the way it is now, a vendor couldn't start an interest/chat thread in the co-op forum, so if a vendor took the initiative in offering a group buy their ability to spread the word wouldn't be the same as for a group buy that was initiated by a DGer approaching a vendor as a coordinator or co-op host would do.

If I understand the rules correctly, the vendors aren't supposed to be the ones initiating a group buy (co-op) in the first place, so they really don't need to gauge interest if they are offering a sale via a classified ad.

Joan, I think we're talking about "group buys" as "sales" rather than as "co-ops."

And I can see how it would be helpful to a vendor to gauge interest before deciding what varieties or types of plants to include in a group buy, in order to focus or streamline the offer.

Okay, but since one of the criteria for a co-op under the new rules is that it be a "group buy" where it requires a *group* of participants to purchase a certain number, or dollar amount in order for anyone to receive the discounted product, using that term for vendor sales is going to confuse this issue more than it already is.

I'm still not getting why a vendor needs to have an interest thread for a sale in the classified ads. They post the ad and either customers come or they don't. Don't most of the vendors already have the sale posted on their own website also? The classified ad on DG is just another way for them to get the word out about the sale. I don't think they are trying to reach the DG members exclusively when they post the sales.

Sorry, I didn't remember how that rule was worded. I can't think of another term for vendor sales that require a group of participants to purchase a certain dollar amount in order to get a discount.

Some vendors are using Classifieds basically as a way of offering group buy type sales to DG members, similar to a co-op but without the need for a non-vendor host (and the vendor is permitted to make a profit).

The currently forming Summer Hill thing is an example. There's an interest thread in the co-op forum right now, but the way they handled it last year (orders & payment/shipping from their site) would be more of a "sale" under the new rules and not a "co-op." It is, however, a "group buy," as the discount depends on the volume of sales, and as far as I know it would be open only to DG members.

I have purchased classified ads before as just an interest thread for a particular group buy. If ther e enough response, then ya just purchase another ad, runnign the group buy. Soome time s the two weeks enough, and soem time s it not, then ya have to purchase anothe r interest thread.

It would be nice to have a chat thread. Personally, I don't see Dave makign one on the classified ads. They are what they are. An ad that runs two weeks and then it over, just like ya purchase from a newspaper. Dave allow s ya to us e dmail to correspond with folks, which is great and somethign he doesn't have to do. It keeps the classifieds neat and clean and all those ads are approved before they get launched.

Can appreciate him not puttign one there cuz who wants to go to classifieds and maybe find all kind s of weir d ads and a bunch of chit chat and usually group buys do take longer than the ad is up for for , so a chat thread would onyl be good for a coupel of weeks.

I thought and thought and trie d to do some mroe thoughting ( LOL). Now I don't knwo if Dave would consider this or not. It would put extra work on him and the mods. Which he/they might even have time for.

The thought was that if ya were say a group buy, you coudl purchase your itnerest thread, purchase your selling ad thread, and then purchase a chat thread section.

But the chat thread section, mayeb could be something where like ok you got your customers. You purchase a chat thread, and you are given say a link to the chat thread area. This would be a link that only lets your customers onto to that particular chat thread. Not any othe r vendors or classified ad selling people could see it. Kind a liek invisible chat threads for each vendor that wanted to purchase a whole group buy ad package.

The main problem I see with having a chat thread is this. If folks can't conduct themselves with courtesy on the co-op forums, and Dave, Terry and the rest of the mods have to keep comign in and tryign to monitor it and then not onyl have complaint s comign infrom the coop forum, but off a classifie d chat threa d too, they don't have the time, nor I sur e they don't want the additional headaches.

Even if they put it so that the chat thread rule was it not part of admid to monitor, they stil have too because it part of Dave's place. Folks will still associate it with Dg and if somebody ha s a complaint or such they gonna go running right to admid and Dave and he not gonan be ahappy person and I just don't see any way aroudn that aspect of it.

I don't knwo if Dave could maybe create and sell seperate vendor store s or not with a special chat link are a to each one or not. Ya buy yoru interest threa d on classified, ya post your interest thread on classified and ya buy a seperate store page with a chat thread. The designign of such a site to me would be mind blowing. I know Dave a wiz and a half with computers, but that talkign some major puter works undertaking. Ya knwo how like ya go to some sites and they have the live chat link on them.

Then again yoru runnign into the problem of some body possibly not playign nice, and Admid not gonan be tryign to solv e issues with vendors and customers again. With the classifeid people read it, buy if they want and either leave none, good or bad feedback. No Admid havign to step in or monitor.

Whatver it would have to be something , somehow that dave and mod s don't have to be constantly lookign ove the puter screens to see if thinsg going ok and it woudl have to be somethign that doesn't put responsibility on Daves repuation with Dg a s a whole if things didn't work out.

As much as I woudl liek to see an extra chat, cuz it is fun to see what folsk gettign and how they liek things. It as much fun for vendors as it is for participants, but I just don't see it happening . Dave has things set now so the complaints more or less in one area alone.

So what's the difference between "Classified Ads" and "DG Marketplace"? Again, can vendors post ads there? It looks to be members selling their wares.

When I say vendor, I mean a real company, a commercial operation that accepts credit cards. Most of the ads on both classified and marketplace seem to be members selling stuff, accepting only paypal. Is there any place that a vendor could do that? If I owned Park Seed, could I offer a 20% discount to DG members (and only DG members) anywhere?

I'm sorry to be so dense. I have belonged to Daves's for several years but have never understood these things, and I've essentially ignored these features. (I don't like Paypal either, so rarely use it)

Karen

Vendors and non-vendors can both use the marketplace or the classifieds, they're just different ways of offering things for sale. The marketplace is set up so you have an individual marketplace entry for each type of plant that you're selling (you can offer more than one of the same plant, but if you have two different types of plants you'd need to create 2 different entries). Classifieds can be anything you want--could be just one plant (although in that case it would be cheaper to use the marketplace), or it could be a discount on everything on a vendor's website, or something in between. A classified makes more sense if you've got a website you want to drive people to and don't want to recreate all your website offerings individually on the marketplace, or if you've got enough items to sell that the $5 for the classified ad would be cheaper than the marketplace fees for selling each item individually.

Also--there are "real" vendors who only accept Paypal and don't take credit cards directly--I've bought from several smaller mail order nurseries who offer that as their only way of payment (you can set up Paypal to charge things to your credit card if you'd rather use it than a bank account, and you can use Paypal for a one-time transaction, you don't have to register there if you don't want to so really it can work just like your credit card)

A classified ad is just like its print-on-paper counterpart: it's an ad that runs for 2 weeks. It costs a flat $5. You can add a photo and as much text as you want, but you can't change it during the two weeks. (As admins, we can make minor modifications to it as a courtesy, especially if there's an oopsie.)

The DG Marketplace is more like eBay's "buy-it-now" - not an auction, but an instant purchase. Sellers pay a percentage of the net sales price for each item sold.

As to what constitutes a vendor, you might be surprised at how small some "BIG" companies really are..a lot of them that have big catalogs, really professional-looking seed packets or a huge online presence are really just a few people working frantically to fill orders.

So I'm not sure you can really make a distinction between sellers based on sales volume or methods of payment accepted. (Accepting major credit cards can be accomplished with nothing more than your computer, internet connection, and a few bucks to sign up for an online banking service.)

Can Park Seed take out a classified ad? Sure.

They could also sell in the Marketplace, if they so chose. Right next to a start-up company, managed singlehandedly by a determined individual trying to make a go of it with his/her plant or seed sales.

I thought I had read somewhere that anyone that sells a garden related item on either the classifieds or marketplace is henceforth regarded as a vendor. True? I wanted to stick extra Atlas gloves, if I have any, in the marketplace once I see which size I and my giftees wear. I was thinking I'd have to go to eBay if I didn't then want to be considered a vendor on DG.

I've been under the impression that somebody who sells an occasional item isn't a "vendor"... there's a difference between once in a while having extra seeds or an extra plant and making a business of it. I think Terry has said in the past that if you wonder whether or not you're a vendor, you probably are.

I split up some bulk packs of seeds last year and made them available pretty cheaply on Marketplace... sent out maybe a dozen orders. I don't think I'm a vendor now. :-)

It's a bit of a sticky wicket.

What differentiates a casual seller from a serious one? The number of sales? The amount of profit? (There are a lot of serious plant and seed sellers who work at it full time and are not making a decent living at it, so I don't think that's a fair standard to apply.)

Gauging someone's intent is not just hard, it's impossible. We can't possibly know what someone really intends, and if it matches up to what they tell us.

And while it would be nice to take people's word on the subject, we've had a few "leaps of faith" blow up in our faces. Like when we defended a member against others' claims they were really a vendor and should not be organizing co-ops. We asked the member, they maintained their innocence, so we stood by them. And then we found out they were maintaining a permanent website with a nice long list of plants offered for sale, at fair-market prices.

It might have been merely a part-time hobby/sideline business for them, but when you hold yourself out as a seller to the public....well, we kind of have to consider you as a seller, too. (You can't have it both ways.)

If a co-op organizer sells extras from a co-op, are they a vendor? Did they sell unexpected overages they got stuck with? Or did they order the 'extras" to re-sell (for a profit?) Yeah, we've had that come up too. And again, we gave the member the benefit of the doubt. Then it was pointed out to us that they were offloading a LOT of "extras" from their co-op on eBay, and had done so more than once (same co-op run multiple times.) So I guess you could color us a little skeptical on this issue ;o)

But critterologist is right about one thing: if you have to ask yourself if you're a vendor, you probably are. If your only sales were a stray plant or a packet of seeds on eBay, and that's the extent of your "vendor" status, you're probably not one.

But please don't put us in the position of defending your non-commercial status if it's only a matter of time before we discover a long trail of plant and seed sales pointing to a brisk little home-based business.

Thanks for the answer. It seems maybe I was not the only one confused by these things.

I realize that some real vendors only accept paypal. I just don't like it. Seems it's security has been breached quite a few times. And again, I don't want my account numbers or anything else floating around to another "middleman". If I deal directly with a credit card company, I know what's what.

Karen

So since I don't have to ask myself if I'm a vendor because i have a few pairs of gloves that don't fit anyone, I'm not. I would just rather give my fees to DG than eBay and give other DGer's a chance to get gloves at the price I paid.

As for the issue of a discussion thread, usually the complaining from the coops was more issues involving the host/ess, wasn't it? Stuff not getting shipped or ordered, etc? There was one I saw I think with a vendor problem, but would it probably still have been a coop under the new rules anyway? I just don't think there's the same potential of problems with what we're talking about. Think of the coops that were done before that would have to go to the classifieds today-Rosy Dawn Coleus, Bulbs from Bleek, etc-have there been any problems resulting in complaints to Dave? This was my first year for coops so I don't know about before, but it seems like those coops go really smoothly. What is the prevailing opinion on that?
Anyway, it should be a rule of the classifieds regardless of chat-you buy thru here, you deal with the vendor directly, you leave Dave out of it. If you have problems with a vendor, you give them a negative review. The classifieds are just a "venue", like Terry said, the equivalent of a paper ad. There are always those members that won't follow the rules, but that's going to happen regardless. Dave and the admins (hey that would make a great band name) must have so much patience to even run this site, I can't even imagine.

Terry said on the Summerhill thread that there are rules but to be a coop it has to have some of those elements "the more the better". So not every single one. For Summerhill, if it has to be a classified, and if we can't have a chat thread of some kind where we can keep track of what we've spent, how will we know our discount? It would be ridiculous to expect Summerhill to take out a classified every few days to update our status, and have to hold a bunch of orders for payment until we know how much to pay, given how many orders we are likely to place and the dollar amount involved. I posted some ideas on the Summerhill thread since we should probably keep this thread more generic. And my hands hurt from typing.

grrr i would assume if we ask summerhill to open a classified for us that it will run for 2 weeks. thus the sale would last for 2 weeks. if they open the classified i am thinking they will just have a link to their site where we would all be able to keep watch on their spreadsheet.......just like last year. but i stand on already having an interest thread for that co-op/sale. if it turns into a sale on the classifieds we still have that thread. so terry..........tell me now. is that against the rules to use our current interest thread for a summerhill co-op for as long as we want? even if the co-op turns into a classified? it's there. seems reasonable to me.

plus terry did you read where dave told us that each participant could pay the company direct. i just want clarification on that now too as it may come up with summerhill esp. if we do do a co-op.

When an "are we interested?" proposal becomes a full-fledged co-op or classified ad, the interest thread is for all intents and purposes done. It no longer serves its original, stated purpose, which was to gauge the interest in a given co-op.

It's not a substitute for a chat thread, and practically speaking, it will probably be too long to load easily for a lot of readers.

I can't tell you that I specifically read where Dave said participants could pay the vendor directly. Did he write something different from my explanation above?

If you read our words to contradict each other, can you please give a link to his post and the wording you aren't clear on?