Where did I go wrong?

I planted petunia seedlings (4 flats -- 36 2x2 cells per flat). Seedlings were looking great, getting their second set of TRUE leaves and capoot! Dead. Fell over like telephone poles, so I assume a fungus attacking the stem. I thought I did all the right things:

1) Removed dome when noticed first germinations
2) Ran floor fan in room 12 hours or more a day. Room stayed very warm (75 + ).
3) Bottom watered when necessary and removed cell pack from water source when noticing top soil getting damp to touch.
4) Waited until cells were very dry before watering again -- became a "feel thing" of how dry top layer was and the weight of the cell pack while also monitoring the leaves of the seedling to ensure it wasn't drying out...
5) did not apply fertilizer until 1st set of true leaves appeared...and gave it 1/4 rate.

I'm wondering if bottom watering should be the solution for such a small seedling? You have all that volume of soil getting soaked and a very small root from a seedling not taking up much of that volume. Perhaps I should be misting for a period of time until the plant gets larger (3 - 4 leaves) before starting the bottom water?

Trying to understand what I did wrong so my not-yet-planted seeds (cosmos, gallardia, etc) do not fail as well.

I have 3 flats of vinca that are getting to their 2nd set of leaves and was concerned they would be hit with the same problem, so your information will be very timely :). As a anti-fungal preventative, I did mist the top of the vinca's soil heavily with a water / hydrogen peroxide combo (1 qt water : 1 tbsp h2o2). I'm not sure if I should continue this or should change my methods altogether.

So sad to see 4 flats of beautifully started petunias suddenly die! =( Please help me become a better, highly successful seeder :)

I should mention that my seed starting medium was the Jiffy-Mix seed starting mix in the several quart bags (Home Depot purchase).

Petunias are quite susceptible to damping off & your description sounds like that's what happened. I always use a product called "Damp-Off" in my water during germination and when the seedlings are tiny. Once they get a little bigger with a couple of leaves, I water and mist the damp-off solution once a week. Chamomile tea also works well. The soil mix probably is the same for your vinca, so you may want to do the tea or buy some damp-off.

Thanks Joanna. I've seen lots of your posts in the past, so I highly respect your opinion. I was hoping that someone would be able to tell maybe where I went wrong in my methods and answer some of my outstanding questions. I'm not sold on the fact that I must add a preventative chemical to make things work out. There has to be a way to do it with some light, water, air circulation, and no chemicals other than the doses of fertilizer...

lancestorm...I agree with Joanna it sounds like damp off. It's caused by a fungus that is inherent in most soils. Transfer can be airborn and seems to be triggered by cool, moist conditions, though other facters can set it off.

The easiest way I've found to prevent damp off is to just throw a chamomile teabag or two in my watering receptical, whether it is a spray bottle or a plastic watering can. I water with this from the minute they are planted until the point at which I start fertilizing. I've never bothered brewing and cooling the tea. Just replace the teabag (the cheapest brand I can find) every couple days or so.
Sprinkling cinnamon on the surface of the soil will also help against damping off...So no chemicals...Your plants will be soothed and calm is you use the chamomile or will smell great with the cinnamon...^_^

Any signs of pests such as fungus gnats?

I absolutely agree that it is damp off. The stem looks like a telephone pole after a truck hits it :).

Chocolatemoose you say to use chamomile tea (I've read about this anti-fungal method in other posts), but how you apply to your seedlings was not mentioned. Do you mist for a period of time until you reach 3 pair true leaves? Or do you always use Bottom soak method regardless of seedling size? Other? I'm not sure if I should have been bottom watering the cells as they are rather deep and the seedlings are so small to start....would take forever to dry out I think. Maybe this is the cause of my problem.

No signs of pests nor fuzzy things on the soil....

lancestorm,
I'm so sorry to hear about your damping off. I'm not very experienced. This is my first year growing plants from seed. My petunias that I'm growing are doing well. And, it sounds like you treated yours around the same way that I did. I've always watered from the bottom from the very beginning. The only difference that I can think of, is that when I first sowed my seeds, I did use chamomile tea in the water. But, it sounds like your seedlings were pretty healthy to start off. So, I don't now. Maybe bad luck.

The only other thing that I can think of is maybe the temperature. My soil temp has been around 75 degrees, but my room temperature is 65 degrees. My flourescent lights raise the soil temp a good 10 degrees. From what I've read, high heat and humidity can increase the chances of damping off.

So sorry for your loss!

I initially mist my seeds with the lightest mist from a spray bottle....As for how long?uuuhm...Until I feel they need bottom soaking...No definitive answer as to which way I water. It's all as needed, based on whether they are on heat mats, lower shelves near the floor to be germinated at cooler temps, domed or not domed. Lots of variables. That's why I keep the tea bags in all my spray bottles, along with my plastic watering pots. That way I am covered no matter what I grab. The bags will disintegrate and clog the spray bottles and develop an "off smell" is they sit around too long, So I just replace them before that point or when the bottle is empty...I water this way probably way longer than necessary, but I always have a million things germinating at different stages so it's easier for me and doesn't harm the plants. Once I switch to fertilizing, I back off the teabags...Mine get pretty nice tea because I buy whatever is cheapest at the grocery store, but if you are fortunate enough to have a dollar store around, those teas will work just fine.

I appreciate everyone's responses :). I am now having the floor fan on 24 hours a day to keep air circulation good. That might have been my down fall, not running the fan the first few weeks.... Would it be better to buy those individual small office fans for each rack of 2 flats? AKA I would have 5 fans blowing across the 5 racks.... or is simply providing an oscillating floor fan okay?

I will pick up some of the tea this weekend and use that for the next few weeks until my vinca seedlings get larger.

Any opinion on whether or not I should continue to watch what the petunias do since I drenched their top layer with the hydrogen peroxide + water combo? I'll be watching for signs of life, perhaps I saved them in time? Or is it when their stems collapse the bell should be rung (too late)? Not wanting to give up if there's some hope!

This message was edited Apr 10, 2009 7:55 AM

Well wouldn't you know it... The petunias are growing by leaps 'n bounds. Their stems are still laying on the soil, but they are growing. Is there any reason I should give up on them? Will I have mutant petunias?! :)

Lance, if thy fell over and are growign now, they may have not gotten their roots established enough to hold the weight at the top.

gently try adn pres s you finger at the base to stick a bit more of the petunia down into the soil to try and straighten them up. not much just a touch and kind bank the soil there to hold them upright.

I also wonder what your lighting situation is? If you have the lights more than a couple inches above the tops of the plants, the stems tend to get long and spindly which can cause them to flop over easily.

Starlight, most of the stems are so "curved" now above the soil that trying to push them into the soil I'm afraid of breaking them! They curve coming out of the soil cause the whole stem is laying on the soil. And then again curved at the base of the plant as the plant has adjusted itself to grow towards the light. So a long kind of "s" curve. The biggest problem comes when I mist the leaves .... the plant flops *everywhere* due to this stem issue! I'm concerned how the plants will be in the wind and rain when they are transplanted outdoors in 7 weeks. I guess when I transplant them outdoors I could add garden soil on top of the whole stem up to the true leaves in order to sturdy them up a bit? I could do this now in the cell packs actually if it is a suggestion for my situation. Or could this lead to disease problems with the stem being covered up like that? Argh! One problem and so many questions! :)

Ecrane, seems like I get varying info on how high to place the fluorescent tubes. I saw figures all over the place online and in books. I finally decided I didn't want to "burn them out", so I have them about 4 inches above the leaves, as recommended in a book by a local gardener extraordinare (Denny McKeown -- http://www.bloomingarden.com/meetdenny.html).

How much is "too long" for seedling stems? I have some vinca that are beginning their 2nd pair of true leaves, and the stems are anywhere from 1 to 2 inches in length. I'm concerned about the same problem with my petunias eventually occurring to the vinca. I did see the topic about transplanting seedlings up to their leaves (aka burying the stems), but since my seedlings were sown directly in the cell packs that I want them to grow up in, I do not have to transplant and thus not an option.

Eventually, hopefully your stems will beef up and will hold the plant somewhat.

I hae put soil up around seedligns i had that weren't rooted in real strogn and leanign and had no problem. try it on a coupel and gi eit aweek ad se ehwo they do. If thos e survive would do the rest.

Wish ya had a pci and we all could se ebetter how to help ya.

The strange thing on petunia's is that the stems are about 1/2 to 1 inch in length, max. So very short stems in my opinion. Maybe it was a rooting issue and they just fell over. I'm just glad they are still growing.

I will get a pic or 3 uploaded in the next day or so.

Thanks!

This message was edited Apr 17, 2009 10:52 AM

lancestorm,here are pics of my petunias under lights,Iam thinking light is your problem,or not close enough,your stems should not be that tall,i know 1/2 -1 inch is not very tall,but its enough to cause problems.My lights sit right on top of the plants,get the lights down on top of them ,no more than an 1-2 inches above them,as long as you are using just flouresent tubes,not grow lights,and Iam not sure how forgiving petunia seedlings are about piling dirt up around them,but I would try to save them too,my heart aches when i lose plants!!!Iam sure you dont want to hear this, it is the first time I have ever started any seeds under lights,things are going really well ,knock on wood!!!

petunias/wave The 3 cells on the front left are pansies or violas,you can see the tiny petuina,and then the larger ones,hope this will help

This message was edited Apr 20, 2009 7:46 AM

lancestorm,
Your petunias sound pretty normal to me. Most petunias I grow all go into individual cells and "lay down" after they get 1-2 true leaves. That's just the way they grow. If you really wanted to you could mound soil around them to make them stand up, but there is no need. As to misting and watering issues, the only time I mist is during germination if the surface seems to dry out. About the worst thing you can do is watering plants by misting after they are up. Once they have germinated, I only water from the bottom. Watering from the top and misting do not adequately wet the whole soil profile and definitely do not help the plant developing a healthy root system. Most people water way too much and don't let the soil profile dry enough between waterings. The surface of your media doesn't have to look "wet" for there to be enough moisture for growth and development.

As too the users of chamomile tea, H2O2 and the many other home remedies - none of these have any curative effects and I question how much preventative help they provide in dealing with plant pathogens. Starting with a sterile media and watering correctly will prevent almost all problems. In over 20 years of growing plants from seed (commercially and privately) I have never had a significant problem with fungi that wasn't caused by human error.

As to the matter of lights. Flourescent lights do need to be close, but they certainly don't need to be within 2 inches of the plant. I keep mine about 6 inches from the flats and never have any problems.

The best thing you can do for your plants is to relax a little. Most people try to micro-manage and usually end up messing up something.

Here was a pic I took about a week after starting this thread, but due to pc issues couldn't get them uploaded to the website. See the stem has fallen over, most of the stems were touching the ground. So I figured it was dead...

and here are my petunias today. I don't know what went wrong with the stem, but they are fighters and coming up strong! Saw the first real side shoots start this week.... I want to yell out the front door, "My petunias are spreading!!!!" ;)

Awesome!!

CONGRADULATIONS !!!!

LOL! : )

I see beautiful babies all ovre the place. You keep shouting and smiling Lance. Ya deserve too.

Hey some of us to the Parade of Dah;lia Dance aroudn the front yard at the first sign of eyes. So if ya feel like yelling out the front door to the neighborhood. Go ahead and do it. Let everybody els e smile just like you are.

Congrats and soon as they start blooming ya gott ashow pics. : )

Parades and Dances of Joy are good for all things ^_^ WHOO HOO lancestorm! Lookin beautious!