Need help with germinating I. obscura's

Hello,

This will be my 3rd attempt in germinating these seeds. I both have the 2 variants of obscuras, from 3 different sources. I am really having trouble germinating them. I followed 2 of the instructions already which required soaking for a couple of hours and germinating with heat and I still get nothing. I house them in a tupperware (like Colin's way) and put it on a heated area like on my register or my dvd player (because I use it alot hehheheehehehe the top gets pretty warm). Still nothing and I risk getting molds.

Are there any other ways of germinating them?

Eliz

Eliz - I would have to agree with you. I have tried to germinate at least 8 seeds, and have had NO LUCK! :-(

Do you scarify the seed then soak in water? I had pretty good luck and with some fairly old seeds too along with my own Ethiopia seeds. I would back off the incubation heat. I nicked my seeds, soaked them in water for an hour or so, then modified the baggie method by using no ziploc baggie and let the moistened paper towel sit at room temperature, not in direct sunlight or even close to the window. The only one I have not had success with is Bone Yellow, but I haven't given up on it yet. I have a recent publication on how some researchers wake up certain species of Ipomoea by plunking the seed down into boiling (yes boiling temperature!) water for 5 or 10 seconds, fishing the seeds out and placing them on moistened sand in a vented plastic container, and this action seems to remove the physical barrier there is on the seed coat. Once the barrier is removed then the embryo can imbibe water, which we can see by how the seed increases in size.

I'm just happy to finally know I wasn't the only one who couldn't get these to germinate. I'll try the boiling water method next.

Eliz - Joseph has had relatively good success with germinating the I.obscura,so I would be inclined to follow his advice with the exception of the boiling water because although coastal species having larger seeds with very thick and hard seedcoats often survive the 'boiling water' treatment,smaller seeds with relatively thin coats often do not survive the boiling water treatment...

I would suggest carefully nicking the seedcoat distal to the hilium...

I am a firm believer in the metabolic / chemical dormancy of many Ipomoea seeds,despite publications to the contrary...I've seen it 1st hand for many years to believe anything anyone publishes that says that Ipomoea seeds do not have various types of metabolic dormancy...

There are many healthy (!) seeds that will not imbibe water even if the seedcoat is breached due to the main germination inhibitor which is abscisic acid...

You can try temperature fluctuations,especially lowering the temperature at night by 5 to 10 degrees...

You could also try smoke products to break dormancy...
http://www.jlhudsonseeds.net/Germination.htm
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5617496

What is the ph of the medium that you are using (?)...you could also try raising or lowering the ph...


TTY,...


Ron

P.S. - sometimes I will use a peroxide soak... or even isopropyl or ethyl alcohol for 12 hrs in the paper towel...these can help to remove germination inhibitors...just keep adjusting different things until something (eventually) works (!)...magnetic field fluctuations with electro-magnets...et al infinitum...

This message was edited Mar 31, 2009 6:26 PM

Count me among the unsuccessful - I have some in peat pellets, in a covered heat chamber, right now - they've been there for about 7 days and zip, nada, nil and NOTHING!

I've had the same problem trying to germinate Ipomoea ochracea too. I am going to try the nicking and soaking next. Something's got to work sooner or later. Are these consider wild MGs?

This message was edited Mar 31, 2009 9:57 PM

Mine has awakened... it has a tiny little white thing on it.. there are three in the same pot.. planted since december I believe..

Three months, huh? Sheesh! I hope they are worth the wait!!!

aww of course! I have learned patience is fruitful.. beleah!!! been waiting for this one for a longgg time

OK you guys, who is going to send me a few obscura seeds. This is the specie I have been waiting for. I was just about to start a thread on dormancy. When do we start calling it real dormancy? This sounds like it. I am now going to go through my seeds again.
This specie never really appealed to me in any other way, but now I have the scent. Frank

I wouldn't use the whole kielbasa lot of seeds when trying out a radical seed starting method like boiling water. All the ideas Ron mentioned are less drastic measures and work well on many species. I know that some salvia species are "fire followers" that won't germinate unless they've been exposed to smoke residue treatment.

This message was edited Apr 1, 2009 8:07 AM

Frank, I only had three seeds, and all are in peat pots - no extras here, and no idea where to get more. I think they are rather difficult to find.

Frank - I used up all but the next 3 I am going to try growing - using the nick and soak method. If it works and I get vines, I will share any seeds I collect with you!

I ought to have some of the Ethiopia I. obscura seeds left, Frank, do you want that strain?

I found some, but am only using three. Need to save a few for back up.

I think I will do a boiling experiment with beans. Who would miss them. It might give us some insight as to whether a dormant embryo is very tolerant to heat or not. Frank

Frank - Using MG seeds of any species in question might be more relevant than beans...

Just a thought to consider...

TTY,...

Ron

The bean experiment Ron is just to ascertain the relative heat tolerance of a low moisture dormant embryo. This might shed light on how long a seed might endure the high temps that are toxic to those soluable sormancy inducing chemicals. You mentioned abscisic acid. I believe they are numerous.

I also believe that at higher temps, these become dissasociated and fall apart. For example, enzymes are catalysts, and under normal conditions, they are neither used up or consumed by the work that they do. but if you pasturize them, they die off completely.
For instance a small amount of Malt will convert a large amount of starch to sugar, if proper conditions are maintained, over a long period. The enzyme is not consumed like fuel is, it is a catalyst. That is different. So if we boil the goopy enzymes the second day, the conversion stops, contamination comes in through the air, and the starch gets converted into acetone instead of sugar. The controlling compounds are vulnerable to heat, therefore it is relevant to discover something about dormant embryos, and their heat tolerance, in order to employ heat as a dormancy inducing chemical, destroyer.
How much boiling can a bean endure, and still germinate????? I believe the moisture content of the embryo, is it's protection from the heat.

Now, the real question is, how long can we boil a bean to kill the dormancy chemical, without also killing the enzymes that are active in the cotyledons during germination.

The kitchen is quiet, I hear that bag of beans, and the egg carton calling my name.
Frank

i have used the hotwater treatment on 3 different Stctocardia species... following some advice i found on DG, the Net and from some instuctions that came with some I costata seeds... I costata have very thick seed coats too.

i put the Stictocardia in water that had just stopped boiling... left them over night and all except one so far have imbibed (is that the right word?) and they have all sprouted except for the S.tiliifoilia and the 1 S.macolusoi that didn't swell up... and i think thats down to after care.... as i had put the swollen S.bereviensis and S macolusoi seeds on top of the central heating radiator, which goes of at night and so cools down... however i put the S tiliifolia into a heated propogator which obviously stays warm constantly...
i'm going to try again using the hot water treatment with the S tiliifolia and using bottom heat afterwards, but allowing them to cool at night as Ron suggested...

i put four I obscura seeds into warm (not hot) water over night... they where softened but not swollen by the morning... i gave them all a little nicking and put them back into soak and by the time i came in from work they had swollen... i prefer to see if they swell up on their own before nicking as i find many seeds do not need it... esp the nils, and i'm beggining to suspect that fresh seeds need less help too....

ceej, that is very interesting. This year I did not nick a single seed, just soaked them and almost all of them have germinated. The prior years, I nicked every type of seed and they also germinated only a little quicker. Now the germination on mine are at different rates, but still, it saved me a ton of time by not nicking. I was afraid to not nick them since I was so used to doing it. This thread is very informative.

I also had trouble germinating Ethiopia 2004/5, the first year all the seeds germinated, then the third year nothing. I didn't have trouble with Bone Yellow, but only had one seed, probably just lucked out. I do use bottom heat and domes on all the seeds, not just MGs.
A.


Edited to add: After checking the seedlings, it looks like without nicking them, I'm only getting about 75% germination, when I nicked them I did get between 90-100 % germination. The time savings for me is worth it, except with rare seeds, I think I'd do my best with those..and nick, then soak and keep an eye on them.

This message was edited Apr 2, 2009 8:39 AM

I did my bean experiment last night and got some shocking results. I put 50 pinto beans into water at a rolling boil. It continued the rolling boil the entire time. Every minute, I took out 5 beans and kept them separate, at one minute intervals, until the final five seeds had been boiling for 10 minutes. I set these groups aside and treated them like this was a pregermination treatment. The amazing thing is that overnight, every group, including the ones boiled for 10 minutes in a rolling boil, all swelled up, and were alive, and imbibing water. Its true that these are not mgs, but they are cured dormant embryos, and I might ad, with a paper thin seed coat. That was a little over 12 hours ago, and all the seeds look equal, in that they are showing cleaveage between the cotyledons, after being boiled up to 10 minutes

As it turns out, the trick for obscura is a one hour soak in sulfuric acid.

I guess we can all get new turkey basters, and get some battery acid out of some old clunker's battery.

I only scarrified one of the tilliafolia seeds you sent me, I glued it to a popsicle stick so I could handle it well, using a cutting disc in my dremel tool. I had to go deep, like I did with maculosoi last year. I went down down down til I hit a black layer. When I went through that, I turned white, and that was far enough. I soaked it with GA3, and it germinated in 2 days. JL hudson seeds has GA3.

Did I mention that pinto beans, after boiling for 10 minutes, still imbibed water and swelled up? lol Frank

You are an inspiration, Frank. I would have thought you would have had 3 bean dip after boiling beans for 10 minutes!

2 days ago I put GA on my mg seeds, too - one is showing a white 'tail' this afternoon!

This message was edited Apr 2, 2009 5:54 PM

Kay, you need that dremel for the sea beans I sent you...

A.

Joseph, I almost tossed the rest of the bag of beans into the pot. But I thought I might need the rest for back up if something went wrong. lol What the heck, I need to use that hambone up anyway. I can toss in the rest of the bag, I have my information.

germinating obscura (University of Georgia Experiment Station) 90 minute soak in acid, followed by potting/incubation (15 degrees C to 35 degrees C for incubation showed no significant difference).

Kay, I just betya that white thing coming out is right next to the hilum? Frank

LOL, Frank - if you say so, then that's what's happening!

the obscura seedlings this morning are showing their little white tails... :-)

thats' cool!

Colin - Excellent!!!!!! I am jealousssssssss ....

Keep us posted on how well the shell comes off. For me last year, this was the dangerous period, where I saw the root and thought all was well. But the seed coat seemed to dry out again and clamp down into cotyledons. I am going to nick mine now and soak for a few more days to see if that makes the coat come off. Frank

thanks Debra and Frank... Becky i don't think i can say thanks for being jealousssssss... so i think i shall just call it part-payback for the snake in the yard thing...lol :-))))

Those look great, good job.
A.

Eliz - Here is a post where I linked to several documents related to Ipomoea obscura germination related factors
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=6360610

Hope that helps...

TTY,...

Ron

question for anyone:
will the I.Obscura be a good candidate for the beach area?

this is one i have yet to try or get my hands on. they seem like they take time to pop up and surprise you from what i have read

Colin - LOL!

I can not even begin to imagine using battery acid to break dormancy in a seed. I am really having a real issue picturing having to do that! So how the heck do these seeds germinate in the wild? There is no battery acid around ...

Becky, it was me with the battery acid. You have to understand dormancy , and the purpose of it. When I was in college studying plant propagation, they did not gloss over dormancy. It is in fact a very large subject. The purpose of it is the survival of the specie.
The longer a seed is dormant in nature, the further it travels before the dormancy wears off.

In a sense it is like cryogenic sleep in space travel. They freeze you, and then you can sleep for 200 years enroute, without aging.

Roses have a seed dormancy of about 6 years, IF YOU LET THE SEEDS COMPLETELY DRY. Rose hybridizers must take the seeds then when they are ripe, but not cured. Once they are cured, or dried, they enter a long dormancy. You can read up on that on the net.

With the three I. obscura seeds I used, I first boiled them at a rolling boil for 15 seconds,
then I put them in a tiny ziplock, and put 2 eyedroppers of battery acid in the ziiplock, and set the oven timer for 90 minutes. When the time was up, I rinsed them good and gave them another soak at 100+ degrees til morning. By evening they were coming out of the shells, so I planted them.
If I had it to do over again, I think the final soak would be at room temp.

I am still in shock, that I could boil pinto beans at a rolling boil, for 10 minutes, and they would still germinate. I would extrapolate from there to find out just how long it does take to kill the embryo with boiling, but my wife put the rest of them in a pot with a ham bone, and now I don't have any back beans to experiment on. A bowl of beans will never look the same to me again. They will all have smiley faces. Frank

Frank - I didn't know you studied plants in college! Is that your field? See, I know so little about some of the folks here on this forum... Thanks for the wonderful explanation of seed survival. :-)

I guess my issue with the battery acid is that I have seen what acid will do to my skin, clothing, metal, plastic, etc. It does MAJOR damage in a short period of time! LOL! I couldn't imagine what it would do to seed coats. I figured the seeds would be dissolved by morning! LOL! Tough little seeds/vines apparently! Is the I. obscura a perennial vine? I know this has been discussed before but since I haven't had any luck growing any, I don't process that knowledge without my own personal experience to remember it by. I am a hands on kinda gal. I was thinking that I. obscura could be kinda of invasive in my climate/zone. Or am I totally wrong?

okay lol.....

I will try Joseph's and Ron's method for 2 seeds
I will try Frank's method with battery acid.... where do you get them though?
I will also try the boiling method

I am thinking of purchasing GA3...could you also use this stuff for merremia species? how about battery acid/sulphuric acid on merremia sp? I'm also having trouble germinating these.

How about using other types of acid aside from sulphuric acid?

Ron - I did not put the obscura seeds in a medium yet...they were on a moist paper towel. And then I got impatient and just threw on the soil hoping that they will sprout. The first set was about 4 months ago and nothing has happened. The second set was placed in a peat pellet and still nothing. I did not check the ph level of the soil...

I will keep you guys up to date with the seeds. I will try germinating them soon after the snow has passed by...

Eliz

Evr, do you remember where you got your seeds. Have you retrieved the seeds that did not germinate? You should if you can.

The most important thing is to get the seed coat so softened up,so that it comes off very easily. If it doesn't come off easily, it will clamp into the cotyledons as they expand. The cotyledons expand like the wings of an emerging butterfly, but if the seed coat hasn't soaked, etc long enough to weaken it, then it damages the cotyledons.

One more thing. My first year, I used popsicle sticks for pot labels. That is a no no.
They seem to come with some kind of gray white mold in them. It germinates and grows out of the popsicle stick. If it is in the same pot as a thick shelled specie, where the seed hull is still too hard to let the cotyledons, this mold will infect those cotyledons, just like damping off. This mold may enter any wounds the rigid seed coat had given the emerging seedling.

Ideally, the hypocotyl, when the seed coat softens, should emerge, through the seed coat, right next to the hypocotyl, and then go down down down.. This anchors the seed, while the cotlyedons emerge from the seed coat, enter the light and expand.
We need to observe whether the seed coat, got anchored or not. This is not so important the the garden section varieties. But to have success with those exotic foreign seeds, it could be a key observation.

O did I mention no popsicle stics for pot lables???

Frank

Just one more question........now what is the next most impossible seed to germinate?