crushed oyster shells-voles & bulbs

hi folks,
i've used crushed oyster shells in the past couple of years, when i plant my lilies. i surround the bulb with them. i had a major problem with voles and my bulbs and have had no problems with loosing any of the newly planted lilies. i also use vole prevention, to try and keep there population in my yard down.
has anyone else used this? my concern is they will biodegrade. anyone have knowledge on this?

i've heard here voleblock works well and tried a bag of it with some hostas and lilies too, but it is more expensive than the crushed oyster shells are.

i would appreciate any and all comments regarding this topic.
debi z

Debi, I used more than a pallet of Permatil/volebloc last fall. I'll let you know how it turns out.

stormyla,
i've heard good things. i hope it works well for you. that is a lot of volebloc. can i ask where you got it and the cost? package sizes available?
thanks.

Debi, It either comes in 40lb bags or loose in bulk. I also recall that Agway was selling it in smaller bags. I inquired at most of the online distributors, but their costs to ship it were equal to and sometimes double the product cost. Even if they were willing to freight ship it, yardiac wanted 150% of the product cost just for shipping. Their normal shipping costs were considerably higher.

I went directly to the manufacturer. They were able to provide a list of all bagged and bulk distributors, but there were none who dealt in bulk in less than a 2 hour drive. I did not choose that route also because I did not have any place to store a loose truck load. I called all of the retailers on the list and found considerable price variances among them.

Finally, I was able to persuade a local garden center to order it and have it delivered to them. I then picked it up from them. This garden center is one where I frequently purchase plants and supplies and their prices are generally reasonable. Basically, I gave them a price range that I was willing to pay and they met it. The price that I paid was cheaper than 99% of the online seller's product cost before shipping. It was a lot of homework, but well worth the savings.

Initially I was looking for Espoma Soil Perfector, which comes in 27lb bags for about 40% more cost than Permatil. Ths particular garden center introduced me to Permatil as an alternative. I bought up the remainder of their existing supply and then had them obtain another pallet. It is considerably cheaper in bulk if you can accomodate that.

Also, I was ordering it in the fall, so there was less retail supply available, and I believe that the Garden Center was more able to negotiate a better price from the distributor because of dwindling demand.

As far as the crushed oyster shells they might be the shape and size to act as a barrier to bulbs but I wonder about the mineral content and the effect on the bulbs. A marine aquarium was a hobby of mine at one time and crushed oyster shells was used to buffer the sea water to the alkaline side of the PH meter. The shells provide calcium and magnesium which the water needs to keep it hard and alkaline. Dolomite was used as well. I guess the question I would have regarding the shells is since (most) lilies would prefer soil on the acid side, could the shells be defeating your purpose if the mineral content leaches into the soil. Sorry, not trying to introduce a problem that does not exist.

fleur-guy, The mineral content of the two products that I considered was one of the factors that helped me decide to go with the Permatil. Espoma described their Soil Perfector as being kiln dried ceramic material. The Permatil is 100% chipped kiln dried shale.

Sorry to have just noticed this thread. I have been using Volblcok/Permatil for several years since I lost over 50 lily bulbs to the voles. Works like a charm, and I planted with about a third of the amount they suggested. I have hundreds of bulbs and lose none. If you leave your bulbs in place you never even have to replace it. It even improved the texture of my clay soil. I could not fine it locally so I ordered it from Yardiac.

Donna

Hi all, I am hearing that the voles ate your lillies. But my voles ate only my hosta, every hosta, and I had lost and losts of them. They started on one side of my yard and hit the other by this spring. All my beds have to be replanted. They did not eat my day lillies either.
What I am doing this year is planting some roses. I plan on putting them in a 12 inch across and 12 down wire cage. What hosta bulb that is left and trying to live I dug up and want to put them in a cage also.
I like the idea of planting the lillies along with the rose's.
Thsi pic shows my redone bed and the baskets where I want to put the roses. I am getting 3 carpet roses and 6 knockout. Should I put some rocks on top and bottom of the cage also to keep out the voles?
This pic was taken at 7:30 in the morning.

Greetings, all.

Just wanted to let you know that despite the evidence of voles (tunnels through the grass) all of my lilies are appearing, including the ones in beds that were decimated before I used Permatil/Volblok. I did not add any more to beds I had done the previous years.

Stormyla, did it work for you?

Dona

Marie, if your hardware cloth has small holes, the critters shouldn't be able to get through them. No need for any form of rocks on the bottoms. The creatures have dug down into the tops of a few of my cages. I have about 250 plants planted in cages, so 4 or 5 that have been dug into is nothing big, compared to previous losses.

I left 1 to 2" of the cage above ground. For the shrubs, I also made Permatil "Moats" around the outside drip line. it is recommended that mulch and ground covers not be used on top of the permatil or in any beds with vole presence. Some folks mix chicken grit or some other form of gravel into the top 2" of soil. I have seen a couple of spots around the shrubs where they dug through the Permatil. I don't put anything on ythe top of the dirt in the cage, mostly because I like to apply different products onto the soil there and don't want anything to interfere with the absorption. Good Luck!

Marie, The little buggers surely dug right up to many of the cages, but fortunately were stupid and mostly turned went foraging for easier food.

Donna, I'm still evaluating the effects of planting the bulbs in Permatil. It certainly did not prevent squirrels from digging up the bulbs. Some of my Hyacinths are chewed on the top. This could have happened after they broke through the ground.

Donna, Some of the tulip foliage looks really chewed up. I'm not sure if this is caused by the critters or if this is caused by the plant shoots breaking through the Permatil. There is a fair amount of this scarred tulip foliage in several of my beds.

The lilies that are showing so far look pretty good.

I made my cages 12 inches tall. I put it down in the ground about 8-9 inches. I hope this works. I dug up what was left of the hosta bulbs from them eating them. I am going to replant them in these in cages and hope that they can recover from the damage.

I had lots of voles in the yard but all of my lilies have appeared. I also spray thiram (in the form of Shogun Deer and Rabbit Repellent) for rabbits once the foliage appears. They did nibble the tops of my tulips before I stopped them.

We made hardware cages for rabbits (several virtually live in our yard) and they chewed above the top, but we didn't even put them underground.

I know of absolutely nothing that works on squirrels. And we don't have them here, because our community is built on former farmland and the trees are not plentiful or mature enough for them. They drove me nuts in the city. But I am puzzled - Permatil never damaged my bulbs. I am sorry that you are disappointed by the results.

Donna

Donna, So far it's only the tulips that are scarred. The blossums were gorgeous, but the foliage had some knicks and tiny tears or was knarled. There was a good amount of frost heave this year, so that may have contributed to it. There were 2 long freezes, one in January and the last was in March.The second long freeze did a lot of damage to shrubs too. The lilies look great so far. Except for this one! Darned critters!

I would gently pull that one back together and splint it. I have had partially broken off lilies recover from that kind of damage. Of course it won't prevent the critters from coming back and finishing it off though!

Thanks, Pardalinum. I'm afraid that I picked it off already. Gee, I wish I had known. It's outside, do you think I could still put it back together? Thanks.

Probably not. Your stem should return next year though.

YEAH!!!

Once the lilies are up (and I have a ton) I spray them with Thiram and toss on some milorganite. Rabbits dislike each but if my observations are correct they really detest the combination. I also grew some miniature tulips (WP Milner) around some of my more vulnerable plants. I realize that I am actually doing multiple things (hardware cloth, Thiram, Milrganite and daffs) but I'm a belt and suspenders kind of gal. The year I lost more than 50 lilies to the blasted voles made me willing to do more. It's working here.

Donna

I have not seen any voles in the garden I redid this year, but they have moved to my other hosta bed Picture shown here) and are eating eveything in site. I am digging up what hosta are left and moving them to cage's in another garden. I am sure as I redo a bed they are going to keep moving onto the next one. I need more cage material...lol

I was thinking of making this bed more of a sitting bed. Meaning a bench and a path to it. Almost all my plants that were here are gone. I do not see much coming up.

Wow, Marie, that's a lovely tranquil spot. I hope it's not totally ruined. The voles were only visibly noticeable in 3 spots until about 2 years ago. Last year the population exploded and there were visible trails to all of the beds. Then destruction was noticable everywhere with certain conscentrated areas.

The migration of the critters to the other beds might have been due to all of the treatments I used in the affected areas, or might have happened anyway. As their population grew, the localized beds may not have contained enough food supply and sent them in search of more.

Many of my neighbors are also infested. This is an older suburban development with lots of mature trees and shrubs with background woods. Everyone here has been busy clearing out years of overgrown shrubs and thickets gone wild. We've been sending our groundhogs to one another, probably voles too. I've read that there are years of unexplained population growth in voles that eventually self correct. Hopefully our gardens will survive until then.

Donna, I always use Milorganite and have had Shogun on my next list of treatments to try. Thanks for the reminder. I remember reading that Shogun is effective for 3 months. Do you apply it more than once a season?

I am also concerned with those tree's. They are digging all around the roots eating the lady slipper and hosta. Can vole's damage large tree's too?

Debi-z, if you're still reading, I realized that no one addressed your concern re the Permatil decomposing. I read that the greatest usage of Permatil was by municipalities for large scale land management projects and soil improvement. One would hope it implies positive findings in that area had been researched.

Marie, Yes they will eat the roots, lower branches and bark from the bottom. Ouch! to lose Lady Slippers would really hurt.

I don't want to hijack Deb_Z's thread. There are lots of threads about voles, try searching for some, or DMail me & I'll point you to some good ones!

Stormyla,

What you say about the "migration" of creatures is very interesting. We were one of the early houses out here 11 years ago. I was able to plant whatever I liked for the first years. Suddenly, about four years ago I started seeing the vole trails and started getting not only lots of damage to the grass but great loss of bulbs.

I use Shotgun when the bulbs first emerge. I noticed this year that if I have a large group of lilies, for example, together, the rabbit will nip one and stop. I don't know how long Shotgun lasts. I reapply it every few days, which I suspect is unnecessary.

I am certainly no expert but I have not noticed the Permatil decomposing. One of the things I like about it is that I do not need to reapply it to lilies because it doesn't seem to disappear. I've been using it for about five years. There is surely someone who knows more than I do.

One last thing. I had a group of lilies that were repeatedly decimated because they are in a location hidden from view (rabbits love those). I have lost them every year for the past four years or so. So this year's experiment was putting in miniature daffs, along with Permatil. I had not realized, until they had obviously been up for some time, that there were exposed lilies in that location. They haven't been touched. I put 3 WP Milner around them. Interesting.

Because I use more than one method I honestly do not know if a single method works. I just know that I really hated the losses. I have no had vole damage to shrubs. The rabbits left my roses alone until last year, When they started chomping, so I went to hardware cloth wrapped around them. But if I had a rose/vole problem I think that I would grow miniature daffs at their bases.

You probably can tell from my threads that I am a very stubborn person who likes to experiment and problem solve.

Donna

hi yall,
chat away.....i am learning a lot, even though not all permatil related, it is related to keeping my lilies alive and that is important to me.
just last year bunnies discovered my lilies. i see a few little munches out there yesterday when i was spraying/drenching for my lily beetles. nasty red things. anyhooooo.... i'm goin g to search for a homemade rabbit deterrant i can spray on. cheap cheap is my motto right now.
i tried to get voleblock in the two locations that the website says has it. they don't and cant't get it from there wholesalers. sooooooooo one is carrying another brand but this is lava rock. so i'll use this and my oyster shells on my new plantings this year.
oh yes the voles started in on my hostas byt he woods this year. time to dig and salvage what is left.
gott a go.
keep chatting i love learning.
debi z

I looked into a vole product that I was told about, but when I called they said they would have to order it. I asked what this product was and they told me that if you have small children or outside pets you can not use this product. I thought about it and decided not to use it. That just sounded to risky. I will just plant the hosta in wire cages and plant the things they did not eat last year, lilies. roses, shrubs, day lilies.

Marie, I'm sorry, I was trying to find a photo that I'd taken of a totally girdled Maple. I must have deleted it. Anyway, they ate the bark all off of the tree bottom and each year now for 3 years, the bark separates from the tree higher and higher. The bark is now a loose shell encircling the tree up to about 7'. The tree is starting to lose large limbs in every storm.. I have another one with bottom damage and now only the front half of the tree leafs out. It also now loses big limbs in the storms and it overhangs my driveway. Not a good thing!

This was a 5' tall gorgeous "Flame" Deciduous Azalea.

Donna, I had read about the Shotgun and actually bought some at the end of last season, but never ended up using it. Now I remember why I bought it. It is mixed in with a transpirant and forms a seal on the plant so that you only have to apply it every 3 months. However in the case of tall lilies that experience a foot or two of growth monthly, you should probably spray the lower 2 feet monthly. Growth breaks the transpirant seal and the lily would now only have the product on the top foot, not down at the critter's reach. However, if deer are the issue, then you would not have to keep spraying the top, only the lower parts.

I also remember thinking of trying Plantskyyd, but the cost of the Shotgun was much better. Bonide makes good products.

Thanks for the daff tip. I'll order some for the fall. Some creature munched my Sum & Substance Hosta today!!!!!

Stormyla, that is what I am seeing the bark coming away from the tree. It is a 75 ft one too and yes I have had limbs come off in storms and it looks like it is only leafing out on one side. I was told to get a tree expert to come look at it not just a tree trimmer. That is my next project I guess.

Marie, Once a tree is girdled, I don't think it's fixable, but I may be wrong. Try posing that question on the tree forum before spending the money on an arborist. Another thing that can cause the bark to separate from a tree is if there used to be shelter around the tree such as other close by trees, a building, or dense undergrowth thicket, that has been removed. A lot of sudden exposure to wind or sunlight to a previous sheltered tree can cause the bark to separate from the tree. But I'd bet on those nasty rodents. Ugh!!!

Hi Stormyla,

I've stopped spraying, and the rabbits are leaving my lilies alone. Once they get larger and the stems are thicker, I think that they are less enchanted than with the tender initial bits. I (happily) have no experience with deer. Rabbits, voles and chipmunks (they hate milorganite) I can handle. Squirrels are the spawn of satan.

I have been growing the rose Heidesommer the last three years, but they never grew because the rabbits kept chewing them down. I threw milorganite all over them and although I have seen a rabbit repeatedly stand near the plant, for the first time in three years it is not being bitten.

I realize that I did a belt and suspenders deal, as described above, but it is so great to have lilies that were chewed down year after year by rabbits (those that survived the voles) pop up and say "hi there"! I haven't seen some of them in years and had forgotten they existed. It's as though I was given 80-90 new lilies. What a blast!

Donna