Too late to start seeds in zone 6?

I'm about to start seeds indoors for the first time and from what I'm reading around the web, it looks like I've 'missed the boat' for this year.

Ideally I want to plant cleome, pansies, zinnia, bee balm, and Phlox - I've heard these are easy seeds for beginners. But as it's mid-March, maybe I should just plant the late-summer-bloomers (Zinnia, cleome) ASAP - and wait until next February to plant the others...?

I also have wisteria seeds gathered from our backyard but it sounds like wisteria are difficult, or at least very slow, to start from seeds?

As for equipment,I'm thinking of buying some fluorescent tubes and fixtures from Home Depot rather than spending the $$ to buy a setup from some place like Gardeners Supply. But I need the right type of light, so if I have to spend a little $ to get results it may be worth it, seeds are still cheaper in the long run.

I'm getting a lot of good info from this forum, but the one thing I still don't know is - what can I start indoors, in Zone 6, in mid-March?

Any advice from you experienced gardeners? Thanks in advance.

I would say you're fine. Get a planting. I use straight up cheap flurescent bulbs and they work fine. Cheap HD shop light will work.

I think you're still fine on starting things, you're still getting a head start over trying to start them outdoors. I would guess you're still 4-6 wks away from your last frost date depending on exactly where in NJ you are, and that's still a fine time to be starting a lot of things.

For the wisteria--the trouble growing it from seed is it can take many, many years before you see blooms. So unless you want to wait 10 yrs or so you're better off starting cuttings instead. This is assuming it's the more common Chinese or Japanese wisteria (W. sinensis and W. floribunda) and not American wisteria (W. frutescens). The American kind I believe will bloom more quickly from seed than the others, plus it's not as aggressive of a grower, but it's not as widespread in cultivation as the Asian ones.

Read the seed packet.It will tell how long it takes the seed to germinate.You want to have established plants to plant out after your frost date.My last frost date is at the end of May. For example;Tomatoes take about 6 weeks to get established plants,so I will start them the middle of April.I am starting my cleome this coming weekend.Zinnia,I always direct sow the first week of June,but don't get flowers till August.Pansey likes cooler weather they bloom in the spring and again in the fall.Never grown bee balm from seed.Phlox I have never grown.I have started very few seeds indoors,so far.Petunias,lisanthus,pentas take a real long time and should be started in febuary.The larger problem is starting too early.The plants grow too quickly.They out grow their containers,they are hitting the lights and it is still too cold to plant out.Keep notes,when planted,when they germinate etc.I think for the most part you are not too late.The cool part is you will have some success and the other part will be a learning experience.You will also not be out all that much money.So take a leap of faith,and go for it.Every year I grow castor bean.These plants grow super fast.Every year I start them later and later.I have still not found the ideal time to start these.LOL,maybe this year.Edge

Wow, what a bunch of great tips you folks have already given me - and I only posted my question a few hours ago. Thanks!!!

Go for it Jasper! I'm starting more cleome this week.

you actually have good timing... the pansy will bloom later... but they will be fine... I winter sow some outside to sprout in spring... to bloom towards the end of summer into fall

Our last frost date here (according to the county Master Gardener's office) is May 4.

I've heard some seeds don't get to the 'bloom' stage for over a year. What can I plant that will bloom this year?

I have some cleome seeds a neighbor gave me. As for the other seeds, I need to buy some ASAP.

Annuals should bloom this year. Perennials some of them will but you're generally better off getting them started in the fall if you want to guarantee that they'll bloom their first year.

Best of luck with your growing efforts. It's fun ! Your seed packets should tell you if the plants you have are annual, perennial or biennial. Biennials typically only grow greens the first year and bloom and set seed the second year, but some will bloom in the first year if sown quite early, indoors. The packets often tell you if what you have will work that way. Perennials basically are plants that come up every year on their own, usually from roots that have wintered over, even if the plant top dies back to the ground.When grown from seed, it can take a season or two before you see much in the way of flowers. Again, some will bloom the first year if started early. I think perennial carnations will do this. Annuals, strictly, flower and set seed in one season, but many plants sold as annuals in colder climates are actually perennials where they come from. Petunias, for example, are often perennial in their native Mexico, but it's too cold in most of North America for them to get through winter. The sites of companies that sell seeds usually have good information for what they sell, like Stokes, Thompson and Morgan, or Johnny's. There are lots of them, and many of the small specialty ones will have specific seeds, like short season vegetables for northern gardeners.

As for building a light garden, I did that, and it's not hard. I suspended two four foot shop lights, with hoods,side by side as close as possible, on chains from hooks in the ceiling, over a shelf I built. The shelf is over an apartment size dryer on a stand. Big enough for about four standard flats and I grow cacti under it too. You can raise or lower the lights by the chain links, even slant them for different height plants if need be. I wired them for plugs, with long cords, plugged them into a power bar, and the bar is plugged into a cheap timer that turns them on and off for me, cause I'd forget, for sure ! Regular flourescent bulbs work fine, but if they are on sale I get the plant specific ones if I can, because I think they are better for the cactus flowers. I replace them roughly every six months, though they last much longer than that, because I read that the light output decreases with age, and plants do best with the maximum they can get. I donate the used ones to the local Value Village, but they'd be fine for a garage. Human eyes don't register the drop in output like the plants do. Incidentally, the bit about replacing every six months was from a site that sold bulbs, so maybe they were just trying to sell more bulbs, but the cheap ones are so cheap I figure better safe than sorry. If I use the plain ones, I pair one cool white with one warm white, in each fixture. It is said to be a better mix of light for plants.. I don't know for sure, but only a tiny difference in cost.

Once you've sown the seeds, be sure to watch the flats closely. Be very observant. Once the shoots show green, you can cook them under the domes if they are in direct sun, so you have to take the domes off or raise them up, or shade them somehow. Ask how I know :-). Also watch for damping off , which can happen very fast. Damping off is a fungal infection that kills seedlings.. they just topple over at the soil line and die, sometimes it seems, almost overnight. The fungal spores are everywhere, impossible to avoid, so make sure you use clean, fresh seeding mix each time. Washing flats, domes, pots etc. in a weak bleach/water solution helps too,and is especially important if you are reusing anything that had soil or plants in it before. Most important of all, provide lots of VENTILATION. Run an oscillating fan in the room or area all the time, because moving air is the very best preventive for fungal problems, especially if it's too cold to have a window open. Btw, you can get a fungicidal product to treat and prevent damping off too, you mix it with water. Any garden center and HD will have it too. Don't forget to harden off the new plants, before you plant them out in the garden, they will need some time in the shade outside to develop resistance to sunlight.

I would definitely keep notes on what works, and what doesn't, for next year. Send away for seed catalogues for next year, before the New Year and you can drool over the pictures !

that says it all

Jasperj
If you want instant blooms this year I have two that I recommed that are perennials. One is Gaillardia grandiflora (Blanket Flower). Easy to grow, is drought resistant and sprouts in 10 to 15 days in room temp. It is a daisy like flower and a package of seeds will give you a mix of flower colors, unless you buy the one marked "Burgundy". That one is the color of its name. Grows 3ft tall and bushy. Most stores carry it.

Another is Datura inoxia (White Moon Flower/Trumpet Flower) Not the vine with the same name. This one grows 3ft and as wide. Beautiful huge white blooms that have a heavenly night scent. Sturdy growth with heart-shaped leaves. Flowers open in the evening and stays until hit by the sun, all day when it's cloudy.

This one is grown as an annual in the North, but can be carried over for next year. I have stored the roots in a plastic bag filled with damp peatmoss and placed in my refrigerator over winter. Or you can trim it and pot it up.

The photo shows what colors I got with a package of seeds.

Here is Datura inoxia.

And a closeup of Datura bloom. This one you can find in Dave's Marketplace. Stores don't carry it. Only carry the vine.

This message was edited Mar 18, 2009 1:36 AM

Blomma have you ever grown razzle dazzle?... an annual blanket flower... the photos on TM show a much nicer flower than plantfiles... doctored photo maybe... just wondering if they are worth growing

http://www.tmseeds.com/product/4511.html

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/162398/

I think I have seed for Datura inoxia, I grew some last year. Only blooms at night for me but the smell is great.

onewish1
No, I have never grown Razzle Dazzle simply because it is an annual. I grow only perennials during the last 15 or so years. Can't say one way or the other if it is worth it. I do know that it is a hybrid so open-pollinated seed won't come true.

ok thanks

Thanks to all for the great advice.
I'd never thought of running a fan to improve ventilation to prevent damping off.

First time I tried growing my own bedding plants,I had loads of enthusiasm and almost no knowledge :-). I lost so many new sprouts to damping off, it was quite depressing, after the joy of seeing them come up. I had them in a south window, in a small, hot room in my apartment, with no ventilation at all. It was far too cold outside to keep the window open. Of those that survived the damping off, most were then cooked by the first really sunny day that came along and that was end of that year's efforts. The next year, I built the light garden shelf, and I set up a fan. Nearly everything I tried was successful, to one degree or another. So I think a fan can be a pretty important addition to any indoor setup, and I find it helps keep just about all my plants happier. I run a ceiling fan year round in two of my three rooms and an oscillating one in the third. It seems to make a noticeable difference and no problems with any sort of fungi or rots, except for the odd one I might overwater. Usually though, if I lose one it's from lack of water :-), often when I'm away. I'm constantly experimenting with ways to keep things watered for long periods. Btw, I just discovered that Soil Moist, one of the companies that makes those water absorbing crystals, is now making mats, for under pots or flats, that have the crystals incorporated. They won a best new idea award at some show or other. Thompson and Morgan are the only seller, and are out of stock today, sadly. Two sizes available, 7 x 7 inches and one that is a bit smaller than a standard flat. If anyone is interested, I'd be letting T&M know about it, because it's a very new product and the more inquiries they get, the more likely they are to order a decent amount of stock for the future, and the more likely Soil Moist is to make lots of them. Just though I'd mention that.I also found a neat new watering gadget, Plantwatcher, made in the USA, sadly not available in Canada anywhere, that works via a sensor that triggers a water reservoir to drip water whenever the soil starts to dry. I think these things are utterly amazing, and wish at least one Canadian company would make the effort to acquire them. Seems we have a bunch of picky retailers up here, according to the company - they sent a very nice email to let me know that when I wrote them. So check them out, if you're looking for a great way to keep the plants happy while you're away. Check these URLs.
http://www.tmseeds.com/search.html?sterm=Soil+Moist
www.plantwatcher.com

Germination of Datura inoxia and Datura meteloides seeds

The germination of seeds of these two different desert plants is frequently a failure with amateurs, though skilled persons can germinate the seeds within 7 days. Seeds collected from the desert are less keen to germinate, while seeds from commercially cultivated plants of selective breeding are more easy to germinate. The seeds from desert plants needs a wetter soil than seeds from commercially cultivated plants. Another reason for failure is that the seeds may have been forced out of immature green seed capsules. A further reason is that the seed may be too old. The seeds can be stored in an amber glass jar with a black screw cap for up to 5 years and still germinate 100%, but seeds stored for 10 years are more likely to have a 1% germination rate and such germinating seeds are likely to die from weakness before they become seedlings unless special treatment is used to prevent loss, such as watering with seaweed solution of 1 cap full of garden commercial liquid seaweed stirred into 10 litres of water. Some varieties of 10-year-old desert glossy hard seed may still germinate 100%. I prefer desert seed because there is more variation in the plants for different climates such as very dry and hot to very humid and hot, or even temperate such as England where I live, which is what I am trying to breed by selective breeding.

Datura inoxia seeds and Datura meteloides seeds from the desert are easily germinated by scattering on top of wet top soil, or better still on top of wet leaf mold or wet peat that has been pressed down into a 4.5 litre clear polythene lunch box having a clasp-on polythene lid. The wet leaf mold or wet peat should fill the container half way up. Make up a solution of Chestnut Compound by dissolving 3 grams of the ammonia-smelling blue powder into 1 litre of cold tap water and stirr with a tablespoon to dissolve it. Apply the blue solution onto the seeds using the tablespoon until every seed has been wet with with it. Then clasp on lid and put into a temperature of 90 F to 100 F for 12 hours, and then apply the blue solution onto all of the seeds again and put back into the heat again for 12 hours with lid back on again. Keep doing this every 12 hours for 48 hours. You should have done this watering with the blue solution five times when you have completed it. You are now on your way to germination successfully.

When 48 hours are up, bring the polythene container with lid still on into daylight such as by the window and leave to cool off for 12 hours and then bring container back into heat for 12 hour, and then bring back to daylight for 12 hours. Keep doing this procedure and by the seventh day 20% to 90% of the seeds or more will have germinated and showing their white root. When the roots are about a quarter of an inch long grip the seed casing with tweezers and put the germinating seed a quarter of and inch under moist sandy soil of a 4-inch plant pot and cover with polythene clear sheet held together around the top of the plant pot with a rubber band. This is to keep moisture in. put plant pot into heat of anywhere between 80 F to 100 F and in about 2 to 4 days the first two leaves should be seen. Remove polythene clear sheet and put plant pot in daylight for seedling to grow.

Commercial cultiver seeds will germinate in about 4 days because the seed casing is more porous to water, while desert seed is glossy, harder and woody-looking and needs extra wetness to germinate. With commercial cultiver seeds you need only use wet top garden soil because the seeds easily absorb water. Leaf mold as well as peat tend to wet the desert Datura seeds very effectively and so germination is insured. The Chestnut Compound prevents damping off of germinating seeds and helps to stimulate germination because of the ammonia. If you did not use it, then the seeds would still germinate but would killed by damping off disease because the seeds are germinating on top of wet leaf mold or wet peat. Ordinary top sandy soil would not cause damping off, but germination would be a bit more difficult and slow. The wet leaf mold or wet peat simulates the desert rains when the sandy soil of the desert is very wet, which brings on germination of Datura seeds near the surface. The 12 hour periods of cooling down and exposure to daylight greatly helps germination of desert Datura seeds when returning back to the heat. Every time it is done more seeds are found germinated by the morning.

The percentage of germination within 7 days will depend on the strain. In some strains it may be only 20%, while in other strains it may be 50% or 90%, but within 14 days mosts seeds out of 100 will have germinated whatever the strain by following the above procedure. Wild desert Datura seed is not meant to germinate evenly in case of losses by night frost or unexpected lack of further rain. The first seeds that germinate within 7 days will have amongst them plants that are fast growing and suitable for outdoors in a temperate climate when there is no further night frost at the start of June. You can put the plants out in the middle of May to accustom them to outdoor conditions and harden the soft leaves, and bring in if night frost is expected. Put some slug pellets on the soil of the plant pot to prevent slugs or snails climbing up the plant pots and eating the leaves, and do the same when you finally plant out in garden soil to prevent loss of plants.

To grow Datura inoxia and Datura meteloides seedlings into healthy plants, first mix 2 volumes of top loose soil with 1 volume of agricultural sand, which is a course quartz sand. Add crushed chalk or crushed limestone powder. For a practical example use a full 12-inch pot of sand and full two 12-inch pots of top loose soil, and then add a full 3-inch pot of crushed chalk or crushed limestone powder and well mix. This is your potting compost.

The best fertilizer for growing Datura plants in the garden is made up by dissolving 10 grams of ammonium sulphate, 5 grams of potassium sulphate and 1 gram of Epsom Salts, which is magnesium sulphate, into 10 litres of cold tap water and striring until all dissolved. Also add 1 capfull of liquid seaweed into the 10 litres of fertilizer solution and stir. This formula will cause speedy growth in temperate climates such as England indoors and outside in the garden. When the seedlings are well established and showing leaf growth after the first two leaves, add about half a level teaspoon of superphosphate on top of the soil in the 4-inch seedling pots and water in with your fertilizer solution. Datura seedlings and plants must never stand in water, and so make sure that the tray of seedlings growing in the 4-inch plant pots are not standing in water. Only water from the top and make sure there is no water in the tray. Do not change the above formula or you will end up with potassium or nitrogen deficiency, which means you will not have healthy fast growth and nice green leaves indoors or outdoors. Do not increase the magnesium sulphate or you will end with potassium deficiency. You do not have to use the seaweed in the fertilizer formula, but in temperate climates it is recomended, and it also has trace elements. Growth is much improved with seaweed when used for Datura plants, as well as with other plants too. This fertilize mix is also good for developing 4-inch potted seedlings in a tray indoors near a window or green house having sun, but can not be used for too long because the seedlings will have too softer leaves because of the lack of strong light. When the seedlings are about 4 inches wide they should be put out in the Sun to harden and darken the green leaves before finally planting out in the garden soil to grow into mature plants as soon as night frost is ended.

Datura inoxia and Datura meteloides seedlings and plants grow well at 70 F and rather slowly at 50 F to 60 F. About 80 F is probably the best daytime temperature for the plant, and with night time temperatures of 60 F to 70 F for growth during the night when the leaves will turn upwards until morning. In temperate climates put the plants out in the garden soil when no further night frost are likely, such as in June in England. Make sure the garden soil where the plant is to be transplanted has sand and gravel mixed in with the soil to make it loose for the fibrous roots and tuber to grow deep into the soil, and water with the above fertilizer solution to get the plants established. A little powdered chalk and some superphophate can be added on top of the soil and watered in. Two teaspoons of powdered chalk and one teaspoon of superphophate mixed together and scattered around the soil of a plant near the plant stem and watered in with the fertilizer solution improves healthy growth.

Datura inoxia should produce seed capsules by bees alone, or it self-pollinates because the stigma is in contact with the five pollen anthers, but Datura meteloides has its stigma above the five pollen anthers and so you will have to pollinate the stigma yourself if you want to get seed capsules by bringing the pollen dust from another Datura meteloides onto the stigma. Datura meteloides has a different shaped stigma than Datura inoxia and so it is a different specie.

The desert plants of Datura inoxia and Datura meteloides produce seeds that tend to have variation in that some seedlings are slow growers and small plants, while others are fast growers and large plants. If you germinate about 200 seeds and grow them as seedlings you will soon see that some seedlings are growing fast and larger, and some are slow and are smaller plants. The faster growers tend to have white flowers and greenish stems or very pale purple stems and are best suited for temperate climates where fast growing is needed in the short cool summers of England. Desert varieties of Datura inoxia appear very dusty grey on the leaves. Ofcourse if there has been no rain in the spring then Datura plants are not found growing in the desert

Datura stramonium, which has black seed and Datura ferox which has larger black seed are ideal for growing in England outdoors, but are still frost tender and have to be put out in June. They both grow faster than Datura inoxia and Datura meteloides at a lower temperature. Datura stramonium tends to have even easy germination, but Datura ferox being a wild plant has uneven germination and requires the same germination treatment as Datura inoxia or Datura meteloides. It is a faster grower than Datura stramonium and larger. Datura metel is a cultivated medicinal plant of India, but grows wild in India on good agricultural soil. The plant is devoid of hairs on the stem and leaf and has large white trumpets like Datura inoxia, though garden plants tend to have double flowers that are purple, white or yellow. The tree daturas were at one time thought to be species, but now they are believed to be mutations that were used in ancient Mexico for religous purposes. Datura plants are subject to mutation. Datura inoxia, and especially the more common desert Datura meteloides and the large Hawk moth that pollinates it, was at one time the focus of ancient south west Indian religion of North America and Mexico before such cultures were strategically destroyed by the governments of the day.

Finally, the desert plants Datura meteloides and Datura inoxia gained a lot of interest as a result of the author Carlos Castaneda describing his experience in his first book with the plant that he thought was Datura inoxia, though Datura inoxia is not a very common desert plant in South Arizona, where he was introduced to an Indian sorcerer who instructed him in the use of probably Datura meteloides plants of the desert. Sadly, his books tend to read like emotional fiction rather than a textbook on sorcercy and Datura plants. No photographs of the desert Datura meteloides or Datura inoxia are included in his books. In some years the Datura plants are not found in the desert because there has been no rain in that year, though he fails to mention it. His books are not matter-of-fact books full of interesting knowlewdge, and there is something speculative about them as if it is fiction. This is not to say that there is no spirit of great power over Datura plants, but if I wanted to germinate Datura seeds I would find no help in his books on how to do it. Carlos Castaneda does not come over in his books as an experimental scientific person giving exact weights of seeds and root for such flying ointment that he rubbed on himself and the root infusion he drank. To simply roughly follow his example described in his first book would result in death or serious damage to the body and brain. Children are much more sensitive to Datura poisoning and are likely to die. Simply chewing three Datura inoxia seeds or Datura meteloides seeds and then swallowing is enough to cause tiredness and mild dreamy visions of scenery and people when you close your eyes. Three seeds will not harm you if you are an adult, but why depend on a drug for mystical visions? If the plants have a god over them, then merely growing should be enough to learn about the god.

If you have difficulty in obtaining Chestnut Compound, then you can make a better Chestnut Compound by dissolving 6 grams of ammonium carbonate and 1 gram of Copper sulphate into 1 litre of cold tap water. This solution has better germinating powers for Datura seeds and better powers to prevent damping off disease in germinating Datura seeds. It will even germinate very old Datura seeds.

Best luck in germinating and growing Datura species, Danny.

Wow, that is over kill for Datura inoxia. It simply isn't that hard.