The temp here has been just awful, nearly 0 at night for the past couple days.
I think it surely warm up LOL maybe into the 20 or 30 by the weekend?
Well my question is this.
I have a pond that is 450 gallons.
I have 1- 6" fish, 1- 3" fish and 8- 1 1/2 " fish.
So not very many fish really.
Keep in mind I totally filled the pond just a week or two ago (see my last thread)
So today it is totally frozen over. How long can I leave it like that? When I make a hole in the top, It will freeze back over in no time, it is so cold. The pond is 3 1/2 feet deep.
If I make a hole every other day will that be efficient for it to freeze back over? Just how open do I have to keep it?
Never had a pond like this over the winter. ??? Don't know what I am doing LOL
frozen over...... for how long?
Frilly
you really need a heater - especially with another "Storm of the Century" coming in. I have read along about fish freezing, etc and even if live through it - I cannot believe it is very good for them. You can get a heater at your local Tractor Supply store for about $30.
They say the best way to put a hole in the ice is to boil a pot of water on the stove and then take the pot with the boiling water and set it on top of the ice - do not dump it, and let the hot pot of boiling water melt a hole in the ice. To pound on the ice in an effort to put a hole in it is bad for the fish. The shock waves that are sent when one does that is what hurts them.
Let us know what you end up doing.
Please do not break the ice, it will indeed harm your fish. There is a wide variety of deicers and heaters made if you want to go that route. Have to tell you though that I have never done that with my goldfish pond and never have had a problem. The original pond was less than two feet deep (actual depth depended on where you stood LOL) Replaced that one with a stock tank this past summer that is about 18" deep and the fish seem to be doing well with no deicer.
I do have one on the other little pond which is also a stock tank because I did not want to take a chance on losing any koi. They seem to be happy as can be as well. Last year I had the heater fail about midwinter and never replaced it and everybody was accounted for and alive come spring.
so do you just let it freeze over and leave it that way?
I am going out in the morning with a pan of water. I have just been using a hammer and making a hole about a foot square. But it is usually just frozen over kind of on the 'surface' and is not deep at all. you know? But this time it is frozen REAL solid. So I think the hammer is a bad idea lol. It is ok for a 'thin' ice, but not this.
I do know cold water holds oxygen better than warm water. And of course the fish are hibernating. IF they are even alive. You know my little 'accident' a week or so ago, they are down in the bottom and I haven't' had a good look at them since then. so I hope they are ok. Hoping the snow cover will sort of keep them insulated and not be so cold at the bottom or change temps too quick as it warms back up (crossing my fingers that it will eventually warm back up LOL)
Frilly, In the winter the fish go to the bottom where the water is a little warmer. They do not hibernate. They go into suspended animation. That means all thier functions slows down and they just sit on the bottom and don't move much. I quit feeding mine the last of Oct and start in middle of April. I have to check mine today because I think mine is frozen over and the stock heater is about four yrs old. Never had one last that long. BEV
My 480 gal goldfish 2' pond temp with a 1000 watt deicer is 43 degree and the goldfish are swimming around looking for food, but I've not fed them since about Nov.1. The warm water evaporates pretty fast in the cold dry air and I might have to add water this week. I hate that because we have to haul 5 gal buckets from the house. It hasnt' been above freezing here for more than five minutes since the week before Christmas. There is about 18" snow on the ground.
The back yard koi pond, 2500 gal 3 -1/2' is a chilly 36.7 degrees! It has a 1500 watt deicer that has managed to keep a hole open in the ice about 2' across even through -17 temperatures. I havn't seen the koi for weeks. This is the first winter in eight years that I couldn't see the koi. They are in the deep part of the pond, the water is murky and the hole is too small for a good view. The water is murky because it's a screaming full sun pond and until it froze over the sun was still growing algae. I'm really nervous. I like it much better when I can at least see the koi down there occaisionally adjusting their resting position. March seems such a long time to wait.
Well I don't feed mine at all during the winter. Maybe an occasional 'snack' if it warms up good for several days and they ask for it. But sometimes it will just warm up for a day or two and supposed to drop again quickly -I don't feed them.
I wonder how much oxygen the open area really adds to the water anyway, because unless there is something agitating the water surface, I cannot see a big change in that.?
That is why I thought I should leave the pump running,, but lol we all know what happened with that dumb idea :(
It is supposed to be almost 50 by saturday, so hoping for some thaw and maybe then I can start up the pump again for a few hours and move some water.
If your water temeprature is below 48 you have no worry about low oxygen. The fish don't need much oxygen when they are in this reduced metabolic state and cold water holds much more oxygen than warm water. What you do need tobe mindful of is "gas exchange". Decaying organic debris gives off harmful gasses. If the pond is frozen over for a long period, and if the pond has a lot of decaying organic matter, those harmful gasses can get trapped in the water and kill the fish. Open water allows those gasses to vent.
You are correct that agitation oxygenates warm water and is essential for koi in the summer.
Hmm Ok that makes sense.
But if the water is that cold, how could anything actually be decaying?
There is nothing in my pond at present time to decay anyway. I netted out all the leaves, and of course there are no plants yet in it.
But in the future.......
So it is probably ok to let it freeze over for 2 or 3 days?
I tried the boil water method,and that did not work.
It thinned it some, but basically just so cold, it didn't do anything. I did shovel some loose snow off the top, so it will hopefully thaw faster when it warms up.
This is from The Ohio State University Extension web site on ponds and winter:
Below is a partial excerpt. You can read the whole article here.
http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0008.html
Winterkill
The Winter Oxygen Cycle
During winter, contribution of oxygen from photosynthesis by green plants and algae is greatly reduced. This is caused by the normal fall die-off of plants and algae due to cold water. Additionally, those green plants that remain produce less oxygen because their metabolism slows in cold water. This does not mean that oxygen levels are much lower in winter. In fact, the reverse is true. In unfrozen ponds, high oxygen levels will occur during winter because the oxygen needs are less in cold water. Aquatic animal (primarily fish) metabolism and oxygen-consuming decomposition processes are greatly reduced in cold water. Also, cold water contains more oxygen than does the warm water of summer. The strong winter winds also keep the pond water circulating and continually add oxygen during winter. These factors combine to prevent winterkill in unfrozen ponds even though plants are contributing little oxygen during winter. Problems, if they are to occur, will happen once ice forms on the pond.
How Winterkill Occurs Figure 1. Oxygen depletion scenario during winter ice cover. Oxygen levels are expressed as parts per million (ppm) and show generalized levels and trends.
Winterkill is the result of a significant decline in oxygen during a long period of ice cover. Figure 1 illustrates the sequence of events that can lead to winterkill. As long as the pond is open or partially open, oxygen levels remain high. This is because diffusion of oxygen from the air and wind agitation add more oxygen to the water than is used for animal metabolism and plant decomposition. This is even true for those very sheltered ponds that receive very little exposure to wind.
When ice forms, neither wind nor diffusion from the air contribute oxygen to the water. The sole source of oxygen becomes the small amount produced by the few remaining algae and plants. If the ice remains thin and clear, oxygen production by plants and algae can continue as enough sunlight can filter through the ice to allow photosynthesis to occur. This production can nearly compensate for that which is used by respiration and decomposition that is continually ongoing. If the ice remains into mid-winter or thickens slightly, oxygen levels will begin to decline by 1-2 parts per million. This is because each day the pond plants and animals use slightly more oxygen than is produced. At this point, however, the pond still has sufficient oxygen.
A serious problem develops when ice persists into late winter and thickens considerably or worse yet, is covered by snow. This reduces the amount of sunlight reaching the plants and algae, thereby substantially reducing the amount of oxygen produced. Since metabolism and decomposition continue unabated, oxygen levels begin to drop and can approach levels that threaten fish survival. In cold water, oxygen levels less than 2-3 ppm for an extended time will begin to kill fish. If levels drop to 1-2 ppm or lower throughout the pond, a complete fish kill will result.
This message was edited Jan 29, 2009 4:54 PM
well, there are no plants or algae in the pond, I just put it together in like Aug or September.
Also with the snow cover on it, there is no light reaching anything, but with no plants, it sounds like that is ok.
It has just been three days, and there are not very many fish in the pond, plus all the water is very fresh.
So I don't think I will worry about it.
But for future winters, I probably need another plan.
So this leads to another question. If the pond freezes and snow covers it, what happens to the plants after several days? Obviously they are not growing right now, like hardy lilies? But will the lack of light over 3 or 4 days cause then to actually die?
It would be impossible to keep snow cover off of the entire pond surface in order for light to reach the bottom? I wouldn't think they would need light during the winter much?
Hardy lilies, as long as the roots don't freeze, are not bothered by ice cover, even if it lasts for months. That holds true for all hardy pond plants. When under the ice they are dormant. Hardy lilies have small leaves held just above the surface of the growing medium or pot soil when they enter dormancy. The purpose of those small leaves is to catch the first rays of the sun when the ice melts and the water begins to warm to signal the plant that it's time to grow.
If the pond should freeze solid to the bottom, all plants will be lost. You can take the marginal plants that grow in shallow water, where they could freeze when winter comes, and put them deeper in the pond where the water doesn't freeze for the winter, then haul them back up to shallow water again in the spring. I move all my stuff to a depth of two feet in November and pull them back up in late March or early April. The only problem is that that water is sooooo cold when you're moving them. I hate that part.
well with the water not moving, still my pond is 3 1/2 feet deep and I think that is near impossible to freeze solid here.
It doesn't stay that cold that long anyway, and then warms back up to 33 lol
Oh how I wish it was that mild here. We have over 1-1/2 feet of snow on the ground and the temperature hasn't been above freezing for weeks. We had a record low of -17 two weeks ago. Enjoy 33!
I'm with you, snapple - it's been arctic cold here in 5a! I have 2 heaters for my 18' diameter pond, and they are straining, but still keep a couple of feet open. I've got 1250 watt and 800 watt heaters. Last year we had a huge ice storm and were without electricity for 5 days. By the time I got it unfrozen, I hoped for the best, but lost all but 3 goldfish to winterkill. All of my koi were gone - the largest was about a foot long. So I'll never let it freeze completely again -- Dax
Oh that's awful! I'm keeping a very close eye on the deicer. It has a hole open about two feet across. I've got my fingers crossed. I'm really nervous this year. I havn't been able to see the koi for weeks and these are the coldest water temperatures that I've experienced. How did you manage without power for all that time? You must have been pretty inconvenienced. We bought a portable generator last fall. It will power our furnace, fridge, hot water tank, the koi pond and my tropical fish tank. Who needs TV and a curling iron? The fish come first.
I just checked - the open area is about 4'. The water temp has gone up a degree to 37. WhooHooo! Still cant see any fish in the koi pond. The goldfish pond is completely ice free and the goldfish are busy swimming around. Lots less water, 480 gal compared to 2500 gal and a 1000 watt deicer compared to a 1500 watt. So it's almost tropical for the little buggers.
This message was edited Jan 30, 2009 6:00 PM
Dax so sorry to hear about your fish!
I guess I have been lucky so far. This year has been the first year I have kept the koi pond ice free and I have never done anything to the goldfish pond and have not had any problems. Hope I have not jinxed it by saying so though!
Yes, it was quite the year - we had to stay at a motel for three days, and came home during the day to make sure it didn't freeze up inside the house! Luckily, we could take our dog and cats to the motel, but, as you can imagine, it was quite a strain. This year hasn't been anywhere near as bad!!
We had 48 degree temps yesterday, and the pond is about 1/2 open now. Excellent!
But, here's a pic of our latest pets - right outside the door - we've heard them since we put in the pond 3 years ago, but this is the first year they've let us see them. I'm sure the water and feeders drew them close this year. Look at each side of the photo -- two barred owls (hoot).
Oh Wow! How special!
I used to hear owls late a night two years ago but didn't hear anything last year. They were nice at first but as the summer went on I started to get annoyed by their noise and waking me up every night. I wish I could've seen them though.
If you have neighbors with small animals you might want to warn them. I used to raise toy poodles, and we have some woods at the edge of our subdivision. Every evening I would let the babies out to potty. Pretty soon some owls caught on and would wait for me every night. So I had to stay out there with them, and bring them right back in. They would surely have taken one in the blink of an eye.
Oh my - Thank goodness we're on 3 acres, and no near neighbors have dogs less than 40 lbs. Don't know if there are any cats around - never see any other than ours, and Miko has been here for 4 years with no problems! Dax