Please, can someone offer help for my few garden dilemmas?

Hello guys and gals,
We have our choice between aged sheep manure and horse manure which will have been aged over the winter by the time tilling and cultivating begins. What is the differend between the two and if I understand correctly from some sources, the main drawback for many is the myriad grass/feed seeds which have the potential to turn your raised vegetable beds into raised grass beds. The garden depends on donations since the sole purpose of the farm is to growl produce and herbs for clients of the region's largest food pantries. Last year, our soil tested as being in awesome condition except needing some iron so we used dried blood and for the fertilizer, we didn't go organic, we used liquid and crystalized Miracle Gro(c) Vegetable and Flower Fertilizer as well as some Plant-Tone and Tomato-Tone for the respective plant types. I don't know how the garden's health with test this year...we also protected the soil by using black mulch fabric. I would love to go in a more organic way with even more companion planting than last year; but since we were able to produce and donate 2200-2300 lb of fresh vegetables, fruit, and a wide variety of herbs, I hope to not cut back on the amount but to actually improve the quality and size of the crops we had.. If anybody has the pros and cons from personal experience or a way to make it simpler to promote the bio-intensive method of gardening based on "How to Grow More Vegetables, Fruits...than you Ever Thought Possible" and the other book "Great Garden Companions" I would be most grateful since my role on our committee this year, is planning the garden, giving a seed list to a friend with a greenhouse who will plant and nurture the seeds until ready to plan, andwith a donated subscription to Plangarden, plot the 1/8th of an acre space. I am a bit scare about getting the spacing right, since last year, our biggest problem was overgrown plants from the rainiest summer in decades. I hope to learn more about in reading from these two books, but we have a planning meeting on the 15th of this month, and I want to sound intelligent about the manure issue, especially, at this point. FEEL FREE TO PERSONALLY DMAILME and I can give you a more direct route so we can converse.

I welcome any help here too as we are going into year two, but we need to use a minimal number of people by maximizing the space, and using a great deal of the area for root crops, including potatoes! Thanks very much. We can always use donations of seeds and of standard or non-standard gardening tools, etc. We are a non-profit organization, but...since I'm not making a pitch for financial donations, I can reserve giving our Tax Exempt ID #, but ask, and I can provide that for a tax deduction later!! Oh, and we plan on growing veggetable companion flowers too. :-)


Peace and a bountiful New Years to you all! I hope I haven't rambled too long! :-) The picture here is of the garden at it's peak last year, but don't be fooled, a good portion of it is the big greenery around squash, cabbage, Kale, etc.

Sincerest Thanks,
Thor

I've tilled in many loads of horse apples and never had a weed problem. Don't know about sheep stuff.

Frank

Thanks, Frank...how old were them apples? :-) [Bit of lame garden humor!] Some say that, since the horse doesn't posess more than one stomach, their isn't enough time to break down all the wonderful grain that the horses eat, that the horse manure must not only be a season old, but have a chance to grow and then be re-piled so the roots become exposed, solving the problem. I know we have a horse farm which offered "old" horse manure but, given last year's very small group of volunteers, we don't want to find out that all of the tilling, mulching, etc. only leads to a bed of great-looking vegetables instead of one of weeds. Yes, we are going to reach out to as many parts of our community as possible for new recruits who enjoy or need to do service in the community--like H.. School students that need to fufill their mandated community service hours, but we need to plan as though we have the same number of people working as we did last year. Below is a picture of a young volunteer gobbling up one of the baby carrots! Her Mom and her worked so very, very hard in this effort!!

Thanks again!
Thor

I use horse manure a lot. It is full of seeds, so I compost it. I don't get all that fancy about composting. I put the horse manure in a pile with some grass clippings, fall leaves, or whatever I can get my hands on. I wet it down very well -- and it usually starts to heat up within a few days. Getting it thoroughly soaked is the secret to the heat. The heat kills the weed seeds. It is good to turn it once, get some air into the mix, and wet it again layer by layer as you turn it. It usually heats again. When the heat has subsided, the compost is ready.
Now there are lots of ways to make even better compost, but what I describe works pretty well. You can even simplify it down to putting the manure all in a pile and wetting it down. That will work as well.
It isn't necessary to do any of this. You can spread manure on your garden area in the fall and turn it under and many of the weed seeds will freeze. Or you can put it on after the plants come up in the spring. I have never succeeded in burning anything with horse manure. There are more weeds if you use uncomposted horse manure, but most of them come from the horse's dinner -- oats. They are easily pulled up, but it is easier yet to let the manure's actual heat kill the weed seed.
Count your blessings! Having a good source of horse manure will guarantee you lots of yummy veggies! Not sure how to add iron. Where I live with alkaline soil all I have to do is add organic matter and iron is released from the soil. In MA I am not sure how one adds iron, but blood meal sounds like a good source.
Veggies with weeds are better than sickly veggies. If you are forced to use uncomposted horse manure, maybe you could mulch it with plastic or newspapers or whatever you can get your hands on. That will keep the weeds down.

I use horse manure. It has a lot of sawdust in it as well. I just use it from my manure pile. No fancy composting. I clean my stalls and empty it on the long narrow pile. It sits out in the weather for a year and I use it from the oldest end to the newest. I haven't had any problem with weeds. Maybe a few oats but they never get big even if I don't pull them. My veggies all love it. Your garden looks great in that pic and what a worthy cause. Thank you for doing that.

Probably in KY you get enough rain to keep your manure pile damp. Here in New Mexico we have to water the compost considerably or it just sits there mummified. In a dry climate weed seeds will last forever if they aren't composted. But I agree that the oats, even if the come up aren't much of a problem. Pull out easily.

Glad other people beleive in the virtues of horsey poo. I used to take alot of veggies to work to share with friends and got many compliments. I told them I used composted horse manure as an additive and really turned some people off. Its not like you're just eating horse manure! And we wash the veggies when we pick them. Plus, why waste all that good stuff? Too bad my dogs can't produce manure that is in any way beneficial, lol.

I don't know why people get so upset about horse poo. Where do they think organic veggies come from? Half of them get cooked anyhow. The other half rarely touch the soil. How silly these people are! Next time ask them, if they cook their food or eat it raw. No doubt they cook lots of it.

thorinator, the age of the horse manure is all over the lot (so to speak). Last spring in a 3' wide x 15' long X 12" deep raised bed I tilled in a tractor scoop, maybe 100 pounds, of horse droppings that were dry but recent. We planted pole beans not long after & they did fine.

Frank

Yeah, I find the age of the horse manure isn't a big problem. I have never succeeded in burning anything with horse manure. The only reason I compost is to keep the weeds down, but it isn't that important. Sometimes I don't have time to compost it.

Dear Friendly Folk,
Thank you so very much for all the great feedback! I find that the input on DG is A-M-A-Z-I-N-G and I just love to find somewhere where I can provide a short answer or two. Wow, my hands are very numb this morning from my neuropathy, so I've got to keep this short as I'm typing more wrong characters and repeats than right ones. Does anyone know about SHEEP MANURE perhaps because one of the guys on our committee knows someone else who can--if our source of horse manure dries up this year--who can provide us with a bunch of sheep manure so I would love to sound intelligent about the difference? [Personally, I'm starting to like horse manure the best, but there's nothing but a good come-back! LOL] :-) ] Again, thanks for the horse manure information and, if all else fails, I will print this page to take to the meeting at the end of the month.

And thanks for the compliment, we are really working to produce not just the prettiest-looking fruits & veggies but the most nutritious so I will see if I can find the information about the horse farm down the road from the garden and see what technique they use to keep the horse manure after it is cleaned out of the stalls.

Sincerely,
Thor

Thor, if producing veggies that are the most nutritious, you need to look into Brix and getting a small refractometer. Nutrient-rich foods can be hard to grow, and looks are deceiving... as I discovered this past growing season. Here's an article I wrote on Brix which can give you an overview.
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1670/
One remark comes to mind... you cannot feed a horse 12ºBx alfalfa and expect to get 20ºBx manure. So, it's not just a choice of which animal manure, but more importantly, what the animals are fed to make the namure.

If you've got access to sheep manure, I might use both. Variety is a good thing in garden additives, just so the plants don't get all of one thing or another. And as others said, the sheep manure is pretty much guaranteed not to have any weed seeds.

Wish I had access to such quantities. ;)

Thor, go for the sheep manure, you'll be fine. Remember though, sheep manure contains about twice as much nitrogen, twice as much phosphorus (a good thing!) and umpteen times as much potassium as horse manure does so use accordingly.
(And, as darius mentioned, it is a given that all ratios and breakdowns of NPK and trace minerals vary depending on the animals diet.)

Congrats on your success with your project! Hope you have another bumper crop year!

Shoe

Great info about sheep manure, thanks, Shoe! Feldon I wistfully share that wish, I am not yet connected to a good source of amendments locally but I am still hopeful. ;-)

Kyla

Shoe,
Does that mean it's easier to burn your plants with the sheep manure? I have used horse manure and rabbit manure fresh and not had any problem with burning. Chicken manure is a whole 'nother ball game.

Not necessarily, Cajun. Usually "fresh" manure high in N is what will burn plants. If the sheep manure is well-composted I wouldn't worry about it at all. I was hoping to point out mainly that because sheep manure is higher in NPK than horse manure then you can get by using a lesser amount, just as you would use a lesser amount of chicken manure vs horse or rabbit doo.

When I raised rabbits I would put it directly in the garden as it was RTU ("ready to use"!). Same for goat, also. My source for horse (usually stable sweepings) and cow manures are normally already aged so I can't comment on my experience using either of those fresh. However, methinks if I did use them fresh I'd incorporate them either in the Fall of the year and let them over-winter in the ground or add them to the soil 3 months before planting, tilling it under so as not to lose nutrients as well as to trap the CO2 in the soil (keeping it from being released into the atmosphere).

Hope that makes sense.

Best!
Shoe

Makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Check out this guy's use of the various kinds of manure:

http://desertification.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/the-many-benefits-of-sheep-manure-gardening-tips-n-ideas

After this, I may have to go find a sheep to follow around with a bucket!

My horses would never forgive me. And what else would I do with all the byproduct? LOL

I'll bet you could find a good home for it LOL - I would certainly take it and put it to good use. :)

Folks will take all I will haul for them but nobody will come get it. Typical.

I go get my own but the horse owner helps load my truck. At my end, I empty it. I would never expect the donor to haul it for me. If I hauled it for anyone there would be a price attached.
Well, CajuninKy, just pile it all up and plant stuff on top -- after it cools down. Remember that Golden Gate Park in San Francisco was entirely built to cover up the huge pile of horse manure that was hauled out of the city and it surely is a lovely park.

Is there another park in the making now? LOL

We hauled 2 loads for one guy's garden and he brought us fresh veggies. That was nice.

I wouldn't haul that for the folks that want it - not for free anyway. I send my daughters over several times a year to clean out my neighbors corral; they do all the work and he gets the benefit of having it cleaned up. I sure wouldn't expect him to haul it for me.

Lots of folks are lazy. If they want my poop they have to come get it. I took it to the one guy because he has lots of room to garden and raises stuff I have no room for. That way I got veggies I could not grow myself. Anyone else will have to haul their own poop.

Well, veggies for poop is a pretty good deal. I do that with the donor of my poop, but it wasn't a spoken agreement. I just always have excess to give away and she is always happy to get what I have. And she bought another horse! I tell you, my garden is going to look good. And so will her in law's garden. She easily supplies all of us and they are thinking of getting a fourth horse for her husband! Hers are to short. He wants a tall horse. Okay -- I can live with yet more poop!

I'd love to see pictures of her horses. I'm wondering why they are short. Are they a short breed?

She is kind of short and so she chose short horses, I think. She got the horses, all but one, before she got the husband. Now he wants to ride with her so they will probably get him a tall horse. I will take pictures of them when I go up in the spring. We are all buried in snow right now.

It's important to have the horses before the husband. That way he doesn't get the cahin of command mixed up. LOL

Right! My friend is smart. Also she married a cowboy. They are a great couple. They live out in the mountains at 8400 ft. and had to shower at work for years because their well wasn't too good. Now they have a really good well and a bull dozer for clearing their road and their neighbors' roads and they got trained as EMTs so they could help out neighbors and campers in their remote area.

That is so cool. My DH and I are both retired EMTs from the fire service.

Anyone with an EMT nearby is a lucky person.

Especially if the hospital is a long way off.

Yes, and it is from where they live. -- about 1 hour by car.

darius very interesting about the brix in and out--I never would have thought it could equate like that....But I believe it, esp as it gives support to me collecting llama manure from some no doubt very well cared for llamas near here.
Horseshoe-- you mention nitrogen burn,,and rabbit poo is supposed to be higher than horse in N...so why does everybody say rabbit is OK fresh and horse has to age? I am tempted to wonder if there are old (farmer's) wives tales about the N burn.

I have used it both fresh with no problems. (Dug into the wrong end of the pile)

Cajun- if I lived closer i'd be happy to come collect your horse poo.

(well, horse pee and rabbit pee would have to have the same kind of N, right? Urea? or not? hmmm, like how dog pee will make spots in the yard.)

"Horseshoe-- you mention nitrogen burn,,and rabbit poo is supposed to be higher than horse in N...so why does everybody say rabbit is OK fresh and horse has to age? I am tempted to wonder if there are old (farmer's) wives tales about the N burn"

Mornin', Folks. Good question, Sally. The answer(s) doesn't tend to necessarily lie in the amount of N in the poo all the time but also on how fast/slow it dries or stabilizes. Horse poop is considered a wet manure and is quicker to go into fermentation. During fermentation (unless "pit fermented") phosphine gas is given off and it is that gas that has been shown to have negative effects on plants. Add to that the fact that horse plops are much bigger than rabbit pellets they tend to hold moisture much longer, contributing to a heat/breakdown (similar to a nice compost pile heating up). Rabbit pellets, being small and individual tend to dry much faster (meaning no excessive heat buildup per pellet) and also contributing to the fact that they can be more easily spread thinly throughout your garden, not in big clumps (or biscuits) like horse dollops. (Don't ya just love the many different ways of describing poop!?)

As a quick disclaimer, often seen in many articles/books, and now websites, yes it is considered a good thing to compost "all" manures before adding them to your garden as an extra safety precaution, especially the "hot" ones (horse, chicken come to mind). However, for me and apparently quite a few others, rabbit (as well as goat berries) have never shown a negative side-effect when I've used them in the garden for the past several decades.

A quick note on chicken poop, remember that chickens use only one "chute" for both poop and urine (called the cloaca for those of you interested). Urine, (much higher in N than manure regardless of the animal) is mixed in with the poop; this not only increase the N content but increases the amount of moisture in the poop, again causing it to initially heat up faster and at a high temperature. Definitely use aged chicken poop, and use it sparingly for best results.

Back later, off to prepare for this extra cold weather moving in today, tonight, tomorrow.

Shoe

Horseshoe---thank you so much for answering my question, and for saying it was a good one. (Next best thing to being smart = asking smart questions.) That was very interesting!!!!!!!
As I have a llama source and they are berries, or cherries more like in size, I will handle accordingly. I'm actually going to save this in my diary for future ref.
Thanks again!