How do I say it?

I'm not positive crinums are lilies, but can you please help? Lily people have been so wonderful to me here on Daves. It's my favorite thread.

I love crinum and have been collecting a bit. (Just found out though that they are a bit snooty and mostly don't bloom until they've settled down for a couple of years and I'm probably moving in 2 years so, add it all up and it'll be about 4-6 years before I see blooms!)

Anyway, I'm wandering.

Do you pronouce the "i" sounding like the "i" in indian (as I have)

or as I was corrected

like a long "i" as the "i" in: "I" was so embarassed.

Thanks y'all.

Crinums aren't lilies. They are in the amaryllis family. But who cares? They are so prettiful ^_^

OK. Thanks. I'll post over there. (Another mistake about them ^_^ )

LOL 3G ~ no worries. It's cry-num.

learn something new everyday here at DG. I have always pronounced them The "i" in Indian way. Moby set me straight. Lol!

3gardeners, even when we don't have the answers, we still are happy that you're here ^_^

Thanks all! I was informed of the correct pronunciation in the Amaryllis forum as well.

Have a good weekend!

i dug some of mine up early this spring because they were in a bad spot and had never bloomed. so far this year i've had three flushes of beautiful blooms! i had heard too that they don't like being moved, but in this case, they loved it. hopefully yours will too!

Actually, Crinums are members of the Lily family (Liliaceae). But they are not a true lily, which are members of the genus Lilium.
See the taxonomy chain at zipcode zoo: http://zipcodezoo.com/Key/Plantae/Crinum_Genus.asp

If you search for a completed species name, say, Crinum giganteum, you will be able to click on the speaker next to "crinum" and hear how it is supposedly supposed to be said. (Moby is correct.)

what an interesting link. when i listened to the speaker voice, i thought i heard crinum with a short i. i listened again and i believe the speaker is saying cri as in indian. i checked dg's pronounciation and they say cry or cree is correct.

i checked my Dictionary of Plant Names by Allen J. Coombes and he says it's pronounced kree num and that an i is always pronounced short, as in indian.

I love conversations like this!

As this site mentions, pronunciation rules are rarely hard-and-fast. For expamle, the British say KLEM-a-tis and we say kla-MAT-is, but either way it's still Clematis. :)
Click here for written and audible help http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pguide/pronunciation-guide-to-botanical-latin.aspx

that's so funny about the klem a tis. my sister corrected me a couple of years ago. she is a stickler for correct nomenclature. then, not too long ago, a neighbor and fellow dg'er was saying kla mat tis and i corrected her. she didn't believe me and looked it up. she was mortified that she was wrong! lol

i think the important thing is that we all love plants and love learning. i've butchered more than my share of names, but i just keep trying.........

Botanical Latin pronunciation has its rules, and broken rules, like any language does. It does seem a bit complicated though See here http://www.saltspring.com/capewest/pron.htm

Once we had Dr. John Page, from Middle England University (or something like that), come to a Rock Garden Society meeting and speak on alpine plants in Ireland. We had a reception for him the day before, where I took the opportunity to query him on this very subject. You see, he is head of linguistics at the University.

Among my questions was: how do you say: "Veni, vidi, vici". He responded with three distinct and correct pronunciations, depending on the Latin dialect used. He added however, that no one could know with absolute certainty how anything was spoken 2000 years ago. Herein lies some of the confusion.

Note the link above is for Botanical Latin, not spoken Latin. They are not necessarily treated the same, nor were they ever meant to be. While spoken Latin has its grammatical rules (term used loosely), Botanical Latin does not. For instance, you cannot say " The cat jumped onto the table." in Botanical Latin, anymore than you could say it using a mathematical language. Although Botanical Latin does modify root words to reflect gender, verb, adjective, etc. classifications like a spoken language, the purpose of such modifications are different, and so is not comparable to spoken Latin. So the confusion lies in people trying to apply the rules of varying dialects of spoken Latin to Botanical Latin, which is not very effective.

Botanical Latin is a written language, not a spoken one, and the question of pronunciation is only valid to the point of mutual comprehension.. Being a language nut myself, I have often brought up the subject with learned people, and they have all said the same thing: the best pronunciation is the one that people understand.

Now if you can wrap you mind around that, you are to be commended. But for the rest of us, lets just have some fun: http://www.write101.com/venividivici.htm

LOL! Leftwood!! I shoulda had more coffee before I went there;-)

I've got my head wrapped around it but it's not that I'm to be commended, but you and your succinct explanation. :)

Love that site! I'm partial to
Veni, Vidi, Va Va Voom -- I Came, I Saw, I wore a feather boa

just spit coffee! LOL

Sorry *snicker*

Thanks for the kudos, Moby. I purposely try to be as explicit as possible.

That fun link is a favorite of mine (no wonder). I just love any plays on words.

dang it! so is it crynum or cri (as in cricket) num ??

BTW, I went ahead and bought the American Nurseryman pronounciation dictionary for $10 delivered. Ardesia told us about it. However, all this discussion is strongly suggesting to me that I should abstain from correcting anybody and simply give them a very, very, very puzzled look, until they pronounce it the way I say it. Sneaky, huh?

Sneaky;) I like it!

"Correcting" pronunciation is a subjective thing for me. I will never correct anyone outright. But there are people I will correct by casually repeating the name in a related sentence of my own. They may catch the different pronunciation or not. I'll just let it be. Usually once I pronounce it differently than what was said, a statement arises like: "Oh that's how you say it!"

I have one friend who adheres strictly to Latin pronunciation rules. Sometimes I have a difficult time understanding him. I have to admit that unlike many other things, I am not a stickler on pronunciation, and say things continually wrong, even though I know it's incorrect. To me, some things just sound better enunciated incorrectly, and are better understood by other plant people.

Vossner, your sneakiness may pay off, or not. Some wouldn't know any other possible way of saying a particular name. If I truly can't figure out what someone is talking about, I will ask them to spell it. That will also give you a clue as to how receptive they are to correction.

i believe i'll be saying cri num instead of cry num from now on but one thing i'll never change is the way i say cit trus. i could never make myself say kit trus, especially around this area of central florida. they'd all think i was from another planet! lol

That's exactly my point, trackinsand.

I make things up if it sounds better. Like 'point-y-setta' Has more of a festive ring to it, don'cha think??

Leftwood,

I like the way you handle gently correcting people by using the word in a sentence. I really appreciated being gently corrected on heuchera (I was putting the accent on the second syllable, not the first) and campanula (I was putting the accent on the third syllable). I was saying them incorrectly - and I had five years of latin!!

Donna

Wish I could have taken Latin in school.

'point-y-setta' sounds like kiddy talk to me.
I guess that could be more festive. LOL

FYI, when Botanical Latin words are taken from names (i.e. the names are latinized), the pronunciation of the original names is preserved. (Poinsettia from Joel Roberts Poinsett) This is probably the rule I break most often. richardii with the first syllable accented is just weird, and was the original name English, French, German, ... They are all pronounce differently to begin with. I am working on those though. Eventually, they will effortlessly role of my tongue with precision. Give me another ten years.

poinsettia is one of those words that can be said any way we want to say it, i think, because it's a common name and is said differently around the country. ew-for-bee-a pul-ker-ri-ma - now that's a different horse altogether.

Oh Goodness . . . see how stupid I can be? No one is immune. But the rule about name pronunciation preservation in real Botanical Latin still holds, And you are absolutely right, it doesn't pertain to poinsettias, as that is a common name.

I'll just go sit in the corner for a while.

One thing I been waiting for an opening to catch my know-it-all brother-in-law on is the plural of cactus. It can be either cac·ti (-tī') or cac·tus·es. Since Botanical Latin is a mixture of Latin and Greek either is correct.

*None of this is my original knowledge as I am horrible at languages! I learned it from a cactus expert on Paul James on HGTV.

Now if he would just give me the opening!!!

Yes, I know it's petty, but sometimes it's the little things that count, ya know. :-)

leftwood, please come out of the corner......and take off that silly dunce cap! i personally wear the dunce cap on a regular basis, but no one puts debi in a corner.....lol

i seem to remember a brewhaha about the cactus forum and whether or not the plural was being used properly.....i probably have that wrong or backwards but there was a stir.

cactus, from the greek, is now used only as a common name according to my book.

And what does he say about cacti? To me, 'cactuses' sounds cumbersome.
On the other hand, to say viri for the plural of virus is just kinda weird so most folks say viruses. (we had this debate when I worked in Virology)

Sometimes letters are added to aid in the ease of pronunciation. For example, take the prefix psych- (meaning mind, mental) and the science of it -logy (study). Awkward to say but throw an 'o' in the middle and it's much easier.

The point of the written and spoken word is to convey an idea or information. Anything to facilitate that process is a good thing. :)

Eschew obfuscation!!

PS. By the way, when it comes to fungus it drives my nuts when people change the 'g' to a 'j' when making it plural. Rhymes with sponge... grrr. Right or wrong, give me a fun-guy any day!

Lefty, are you out of the corner yet?

Yes, out of the corner. Way to much still to do. Today I finally got my potted materials completely put to bed for the winter. Would have been a few days ago, but discovered I didn't have enough sheet plastic. It had been enough to keep the snow from penetrating, until today.

Obfuscation. My word for the day.

True about the word "cactus" not being used in Botanical Latin. However the root of the word is still used in Botanical Latin, but in the ranks of family (Cactaceae), subfamily (Cactoideae) and tribe (Cacteae).

Moby, your psych-o-logy analysis is interesting. Seems to me I read something somewhere sometime that Botanical Latin allows for that too. The Slovenian language has something linguist call a flavoring word, sometimes added to a sentence or phrase. The word (pa) has no meaning, and while the origin of it us unknown, perhaps that is why it is used. On the other hand, psycho-logy (the study of psychos) seems sensible to me.

As for the fungi business, Wow Moby, I'm impressed that you read the entire page I linked to, and you too, Debi. And I never realized sponge was pronounced spong-ee. (Just kidding.)

Oh Moby, we might have a fungi fight on our hands here. Lol! Every chemistry and biology prof. I ever had has said it with a j-sound. I say it your way and it just sounds weird. Really weird. Lol!

This message was edited Dec 16, 2008 8:12 PM

Veni-Vidi-Vrai.....if you just know where to look!

here's something to make your head spin (if you're so inclined): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English

That's similar to what was taught when I was in first grade, I.T.A., or initial teaching alphabet.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ita.htm

Y'all are too much!! Imagine teaching decoding to southern children..The difference between pin and pen are difficult enough for my elementary school crowd...latin? whoa...Those sites made my head hurt at this time of the evening, lol!

I swear, I was never formally introduced to a lot of that. (Where have I been?)
But I am partial to this one:

ˈʌʔoʊ = uh oh

Someday I am going to spring it some unsuspecting soul on another forum.

How 'bout letting us know when you do it;>

That ITA gives me a brain cramp!

Veni, Vidi, Owie

This message was edited Dec 17, 2008 7:30 AM

Or

Veni, vidi, Vexing