I used the PP tonight - put the tabs in at around 6:15 p.m. Everyone looked fine through the treatment, although the water did not stay pink/purple for more than about an hour. At 10:00 p.m. I turned my filter and pump back on because there was no color in the water at all.
Lil Bit was flashing quite a bit, so when I got home from work I tested the salt, it was at .08 and I thought "I don't have much to lose by PP'ing the pond." Lil Bit was also starting to isolate himself, not keeping up with the other three. I make an "emergency" bucket of dechlorinated clean water, in case I overdid it with the PP and needed to pull out the fish, but after the PP I decided to put Lil Bit in the bucket with a bubbler and added prazi to the water. I will do PP again on Saturday, probably put in a bit more so the water stays colored for longer. It never even turned entirely purple today, just a few areas around where the PP tablets were.
Lil Bit was HARD to catch - each time I got near him with the net he jumped clear across to the other end of the pond. I felt bad taking him out, he fought so hard to stay in the tank with the other fish, but I wanted to get him away from the other fish. The other three are just so vibrant, and Lil Bit now looks like he might be on the same road Piggy and Claire went down. His weight still looks good, proportionate to his size, so I am hoping that if I can get him clear of whatever parasite is bothering him, he stands a good chance.
So, Saturday I will PP the pond again. I used 5 tablets today, which should have been plenty (each tablet treats 50 gallons and my indoor pond is 270 gallons filled to the top, but it was only filled to about 4" from the top), but as I said it never got a uniform purple color. I just hope I can save Poppy the sanke, I really like that fish. So far he has not shown ANY sign of slowing down, knock on wood, and I would like to keep it that way!
Thanks everyone for all the support, it means a lot to me.
High Drama and Heartache in the Baby Koi Pond
I spoke to a few chemists about the PP - they said I probably still have dechlor in the pond or there area lot more organics in the pond than I anticipated, so I need to add more tap water (which will bind the Ammo-Lock) and up the PP dosage when I redo it in a few days.
Lil Bit looked about the same this morning. Swimming in the quarantine bucket.
PP effectiveness is reduced by the "organic" load in the pond. It's common to have to add more PP. The last time I did my pond it took a heck of a lot. I would dose, watch the water turn purple, then quickly go amber, dose again to get purple, watch it turn amber, dose again etc. etc. This went on all day until finally I got enough PP in the pond to stay pink/purple to work on the problem I had, saprolegnia, for the right amount of time. My pond had a big organic load that kept using up the PP. That's why, I guess, you start early in the morning,cause you're there all darn day!
I got frustrated with that regime. I figured IC would have it easier being that she has a small pond. Again I'm wrong.
I had to do this so many times over the summer. I eventually drained the pond nearly to the bottom and overdosed the pond (fish were out) majorly and after the water stayed the color for about 8 hours I felt secure in putting my pond and fish back together.
IC: After using PP, you will notice a lot of what I call "pond fluff" on the bottom. It's the left over organic matter. It took me a while to clean that crap out but the water was sparkling afterwards.
I hope your fish recover soon!
Snapple: What is saprolegnia? Prepare me for my 2nd summer with the pond.
IC: I saw you wrote on Snapple's post regarding Momma that you and your husband were considering getting rid of these fish and starting over with a quality breeder. I went to "quality breeders" for my fish and paid a heck of a lot more than you to have them die. I think your attitude is on the money-you can learn a lot from these fish and not waste a lot. I bought fish from three sources all highly recomended. The last lot I bought though I will tell you, were very different than the first two. This was from a Japanese importer of Koi. These fish are vigorous, hardy and spunky unlike any of my domestic koi fish. They all cost in the same market. I will return to that dealer in the future for any other additions to my pond family. As I read your posts I am hoping that my next season is much better than my last season. Your troubles and Snapples troubles make me worry about what might be lurking under the surface of my pond waiting until Spring time to expose itself to me . . .
There is one place in Iowa that sells Nishikigoi: http://iakoi.com/
I don't think that website is updated regularly, but the place itself looks to have nice stuff. I'm going to throw out the food I have come February (it will be a year old then) and buy new food, maybe hubby and I will take a trip to Des Moines to the store and check it out. They seemed to have pretty decent prices and are "only" two hours from our house. They also have smaller koi - So, we were thinking about getting fish from there when the big pond is set up. We are supposed to get some warm weather this weekend - if it is warm enough to melt the snow & ice I might see if I can pull the hose from the area I had outlined as Plan B and move it to the Plan C area, then call the utility company to have them check that area before I get all excited about putting the pond there.
I don't have any visible organic matter in the pond (I only feed enough that the fish eat everything in five minutes), but I apparently have more than I thought I did. I have ten PP tablets left, the dosage is supposed to be five tablets for that size, but not much color happened from five tablets. I hope ten tablets will be enough to have the desired results. We'll see - tomorrow is Round 2. I do like the idea of removing some of the water, I will probably do that. I can siphon around the bottom and remove any koi poopies so the PP doesn't waste its energy oxidizing it.
Lil Bit is still alive, amazingly, in his bucket. I dare say he looked improved this morning. His bucket is a little cloudy from the Prazi. More good news is that NO ONE has flashed in two days. MM, I'm not considering getting rid of any of these fishies - it was just something hubby suggested. Who is your dealer for the two spunky koi? My hubby has family in Kenosha and we visit there several times a year, Chicago is right on the way.
Should I add Lil Bit back to the big pond tomorrow before I PP it or keep him separated?
If Lil Bit is getting better with the bucket Prazi treatment, I'd finish the Prazi , then put him in the pond after the PP pond treatment. MM has more experience with Prazi. I don't know how long you have to use that to clear the parasite.
Saprolengina is a common koi fungus that comes on in cold water. This link has the best discussion.
http://www.koivet.com/koivet/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:saprolegnia--water-fungus&catid=40:fungal-infections-koi&Itemid=60
PP is considered by most authorities the best treatment to clear it and the underlying cause. I've had it three years in a row on the same fish, none of the others. The first year I used fungus eliminator and the fish cleared up perfectly. The next spring it was back on the same fish. I used the PP treatment. That knocked it right out in a hurry and the fish cleared up. It came back again on the same fish the following spring. I used Microbelift fungus treatment. I had to increase the dose ( per label instructions) for a second round but the fungus cleared. That was the year I then climbed in the pond and took out all the rocks and gravel. ( Dreadful, nasty and disgusting experiecnce.) I've been fungus free ever since.
Now there is a three year trial and error ( mostly error) learning experiecnce I sincerely hope everyone who reads this takes away from it.
You Do Not Want Rocks Or Gravel In Your Pond! They are beautiful, but they are a breeding ground for parasites, bad bacteria and fungus.
I'm going to Deb the dealer this afternoon to pay Momma's tab and remind her about the pictures. I havn't gotton them yet.
We will have ZERO rocks and gravel in our outdoor pond! We ARE going to have at least one, probably two, bottom drains. I know that will mean more work for installation, and I need to figure out how to keep water in the pvc from freezing in winter after I disconnect the pump and filter, but it should make keeping the whole pond a lot more sanitary.
From what I read, the Prazi is a seven day treatment, so that would mean Lil Bit has to stay in the bucket through next Tuesday.
Prazi is pretty straight forward-follow the directions and you will be good. I hope this clears up the fish and the pp does the pond. If you feel the prazi helped the most I would treat all the fish otherwise they will be passing the "bug" from one koi to the next it will get expensive treating them one at a time.
Regarding my Japanese importer. He is in Marengo, IL This is a "real" koi dealer. Nothing fancy like a store or anything. He was working with a carpenter last summer so maybe there are plans for expansion. He lives on site in a country setting and his Koi are in a greenhouse type of structure in deep retention tanks.
This is his website:
http://www.koipondjapan.com/
I just looked at his website-it has improved a lot since I looked at it last time. This man is very knowledgable but his english is a little poor. I had seen posting on the Midwest Koi Society site regarding this man's fish and had a peek two times. Once before my pond was ready and later in the summer when I replaced some fish. I found his import fish to be very, very spunky whereas my domestics seemed tired and drab in personality. All of the fish look beautiful imported or domestic but for some reason his seem so much more hardier. They also did not get affected by any disease this summer but were treated with the rest of the school. They did not change in their behavior at any point of treatment and were VERY difficult to catch which tells me that they are stronger/healthier than my other fish. Something to note: This dealer discounted for me which I appreciated. I bought from him late in the season and he did not have as many to chose from but what I did get was beautiful. He also taught me a lot about sexing the fish and I had him also teach me to write "death to herons" in Japanese which I painted onto a red hot colored gardening stool that I keep by my pond for plantings. He is a nice man.
Treat all the fish at the same time.
IC: I just looked at your koi place in Iowa's website. I bought something within a minute-interactive koi and pond for my iphone and ipod. For .99 cents I can feed the koi and poke at the screen and the koi interact! I love it! Thanks for the link-I'm such a nut!
BTW: Those koi are VERY expensive at that place. The prices and quality at my Japanese man's place at are about 50% less and excellent quality.
I stand corrected, IC the fish prices are in line with most koi shops. I WAS WRONG! I saw two fish on their site that were 10 inches long and one was $400.00. These two must be a different quality. Their regular stock and prices seemed fine. They actually have a nice website.
Do they ship?
I think they do ship, although it says on the site to call to order, so it might not be something they do a lot of.
They had a few expensive fish on the site, but many under $100.
Those are some good looking koi ic.
I'm trying to convince hubby that we need to visit there the weekend after New Year's.
: )
How is lil bit doing? Any change?
He's not looking good. Today when I got home, he was kind of doing that wobbling thing. I'm glad his is not in with the other fish.
Sorry to hear that. Don't venture near that fancy koi shop until you get these fish back on their feet (fins?). Otherwise you will be bringing a future victim into the school. Do you have quaranteen facilities to keep a new fish for a few weeks?
I am definitely not going to add any new fish until this pond is cleared up. I just need a road trip and Des Moines is always a fun one day destination, so if we can add this pond shop to just look at stuff, I can buy some new food for the fish and also look at filters, etc.
The original idea was that this little indoor pond is going to be my quarantine tank. Lil Bit has been living in a five gallon bucket since Wednesday in hopes that the other fish will not catch whatever he had/has - I am treating him individually in the bucket as well as treating the whole pond. He is still alive but whether he is doing better or worse is anyone's guess.
The ground was thawed enough today that I was able to move the hose that I outlined in outdoor pond location #2 to location #3. Now I need to call the utilities company to get them to check to see what is under the soil there. Location #3 looks really great, I'm hoping that the area will be utility free.
Elizabeth
Your dealer is very nice. He has emailed me a few times since yesterday and offered to bring my koi into Chicago personally because he travels there often. I like his utsuri fish online.
Does he get as far as NW Ohio? LOL
I liked the utsuri too! He emailed me back and told me that if I spend over $1,000 in his shop for supplies for my pond, he will deliver it for free from Des Moines to Iowa City. He sells everything, even liner, so I'll probably be buying all my supplies from him. His retail store is closed for the winter but he said we'll figure something out (weather permitting) if I wanted to visit.
Lil Bit died overnight. He was in his isolation bucket and seemed to be doing well in the day, but this morning my hubby told me Lil Bit passed away (he had to feed the cats and went to check on Lil Bit while he was doing that).
I have three koi left - Poppy from the original five purchased at the beginning of November and the two "new" ones we've now had for two weeks. I PP'd the whole pond yesterday and it did stay darkened for about five hours, then I did a partial water change and used dechlor to deactivate the PP because the fish were starting to look uncomfortable.
We're going to visit Iowa Koi on January 3 - weather permitting! Just got an email from Rick and 3:00 p.m. works for him. I'll let everyone know how it goes! He did say he has about 50 small koi left in stock - anyone want me to look for anything in particular?
I'm sorry about your Lil Bit dying. I feel you are doing an indoor version of my past summer.
Regarding your visit in January. Even if I wanted something I can't do anything with a koi until the "Big Thaw". My quaranteen tank is outside but I am considering a small kids swimming pool for my basement for next year. I am worried about one fish that is in the pond that was one of my first three fish (only survivor). She had an ulcer that wasn't healing that quickly in September and still had it in November. If I could have, I would have pulled her indoors and worked on her health over the winter. I'm doing major "clean-ups" in all parts of my home this winter. My kids are aging up and a lot of toys and "stuff' NEEDS TO BE REHOMED!!! A lot of my stuff needs to be rehomed and cleaned up and reorganized. I have this great little space in my basement that is like a large plant growing room, storage room, craft room. It's right next to a bathroom and I could see running water into a pool from there and also draining my pool into the shower drain. My little brain is working and thing . . .
Elizabeth,
I am sorry to hear about Lil Bit. Seems like your luck should be turning around soon.
Going to the pond store sounds like fun. Every year, my husband and I used to pick a day in May and go and see our pond dealer. The trip was 1 1/2 hours one way. We would stop and have a nice lunch on the way up. We always had a good time and looked forward to that trip throughout the winter. We don't do that anymore, because we are maxed out with the number of koi - but we always had a good time. You will have to let us know how your trip goes. I know you can't buy koi yet, but I do hope you have fun.
Carolyn
Our trip should be a lot of fun - Rick is going to show us the different kinds of filters that he stocks so I will get to ask the pros and cons of each. I'm going to bring a sketch of the pond as I want to do it with and we can talk about that too. I plan on buying some koi food (to get rid of the stuff I have which was just big box store bought). We're going to go to lunch first at the Cheesecake Factory so that should be tasty : )
I really hope my luck will start turning around, we'll see. I did a big water change today again.
So sorry about Lil Bit. No matter how small they are or how little time you've had 'em it smarts. They don't all get sick and die. It just seems that way sometimes. Enjoy your trip and learn all you can.
IC-How goes it with your little finny friends? Are the other fish showing any health signs or issues to be concerned about? I hope whatever was ailing them has now been knocked out and they are all doing great.
The remaining three look okay, but it is so hard to tell. Two of them are now determined to hide under the fake lily pads, but they are not floating at the surface or anything and when I move the lily pads to check on them (about twice a day), they do swim right off and don't show any signs of illness. Not one of the three are interested in eating in front of me, but when I give them a little bit of food and check back in half an hour, it is gone. I guess their appetites can be messed up from the PP or the Melafix I added the day after the PP. I'm toying with the idea of giving them the medicated food again in a week or so, they seemed to really like to eat that.
One of them really likes to swim in the current from the filtered water, the other two for the most part just sit under those lily pads. I don't know how long they stay under there - we have a rickety wooden staircase going into the basement that announces my arrival so maybe they just head for the lily pads as soon as they hear the stairs or feel the vibration? The stairs are only about ten feet from the pond and I've been trying to tread more lightly.
I don't really know what they are supposed to act like when they are this little and young, if they live they have a long ways to go before they will resemble the temperments described in the koi books.
The one swimming in the current is probably quite healthy. Koi like a current. Some of mine will swim right up to the waterfall outflow and ride through it over and over again. The seem to use it like an amuzement ride at Cedar Point. Hiding or hanging around under vegetation is normal behaviour too. When you hang over the pond they can mistake you for a large bird of prey. It's instinctive. I bought a teeny little 5" Gin Rin Ki Utsuri late last August. I very rarely see the fish. He (?) hides all the time. I did see it yesterday down with the big ones when I netted out some stray leaves. I hadn't seen it for well over a week. This fish has a ton of growing to do to be able to hangout with 2's. I'm so used to the whale sized koi I forgot how small the youngs one are. Your fish sound normal to me.
She also only has a few fish-not nearly a school to feel the comfort of safety. My fish are always hiding too and they are young. This makes them very vulnerable because if they were sick you might not even notice it until it's too late. Don't feed them as often skip a day or two and they will get bolder . . . Also, they hear very well and they do quickly recognize footsteps. The fish always hid when my husband came near the pond whereas they would only retreat halfway for me. Next year I hope they are even more bold. My two boldest fish died this past summer . . . They really encouraged the whole school to feed in front of me.
I am learning more about my pond dynamics! Thankfully, no one died from this mistake.
Yesterday I siphoned out the koi poopies on the bottom and did about a 15% water change, then tested the water and SHOCK the ammonia was at 3 - NOT GOOD - that high after a partial water change!!! I did a 20% water change Sunday and the ammonia reading was zero after that - how could it raise so quickly??? Probably whatever good bacteria I had was knocked out by the PP when I doused the pond Saturday.
I added about twice as much ammo-lock as was given as dosage for the amount of water I changed last night. This morning the ammonia was still around 1 so I added twice as much as I did last night. We're expecting an ice storm combined with snow later today and will probably lose power if the weather is as bad as is predicted, so I do NOT want the poor koi to try to have to weather the storm with no filtration or aeration in an ammonia filled pond. Plus, the ammonia reading should be ZERO, right?
I also discovered this morning that I think the koi HATE the Tetra food I bought at the pet store when I bought the first koi. The just will not come out to feed, I waited fifteen minutes and nothing, so I took that food out and gave them some sinking MediKoi and they all came out and immediately started looking for the food (then they saw me and got scared and hid again). But, that tells me that they do not like the regular food. I'm going to throw it out and just feed them MediKoi until I buy new high-quality food from the Iowa Koi guy in two weeks. They must have been eating, because the food disappears and they are pooping mightily, but I bet the food sits in there longer than I thought until they cave in and eat it. I wonder if there is something wrong with it? It has no smell, as opposed to the very stinky MediKoi, but maybe it is old and there is a bacterial issue??? There is no expiration date on the food, which is suspicious. EVERYTHING expires eventually, right? I'm throwing it out when I get home today.
The fish did look much happier this morning. I told hubby about the ammonia spike and he told me that I need to check the water every day to make sure I catch it sooner again. We didn't lose anyone this time but the matsuba was respirating heavily near the surface yesterday before I siphoned the poopies out so it must have been uncomfortable in there. About a half hour after I added the ammo-lock this morning, the matsuba was looking a lot happier, swimming in the current again. He also was not visibly respirating heavily (since he is a light color it is easiest to tell with him how much his gills are flaring).
The water temperature is around 78 degrees. Should I lower it so they don't need to eat every day?
Thanks Snapple and MM - you guys are the best!!!
Ammonia spikes are quick! Zero is the only tolerable ammonia reading. It sounds like you've done everything you could to mitigate any damage. Your filter should come back up within 10 days or so. It's rare ( but not impossible) to knock out 100% of the filter bacteria. You will have to continue a daily check and water change until the filter is fully functional again. You can lower the temp to 72-74 and feed lightly. This will reduce the load on the filter.
I've found that feeding the more expensive koi food pays off in the long run. Tetra, in my opinion, is not a quality feed. Besides being full of cheap fillers it clouds the water. I feed Hikari, in different formulations for different pond temperature conditions. Microbelift koi foods are also good and a bit more economical. I have to get the 21Lb size. Look for stabilized Vitamin C in any koi food. If I could find my Dr. Johnson koi book I would get the type of stabilized C. One form is preferable to another, but my book is still AWOL. I know that the Hikari and the Microblift both contained it. The color enhancers sounded silly to me at first, but by golly they actually did make a difference.
The links are for reference only. As with anything these days, it pays to shop around.
http://www.pondbiz.com/home/pb1/smartlist_12/hikari_koi_food.html
http://www.microbeliftstore.com/home/ml1/smartlist_58/legacy_big_bites.html
Now, when you get over this last hurdle, don't add any more fish unless you quarantine first. It should be smooth sailing from here on in. Into location #3 maybe?
The weather man here is talking "apocalyps now" for snow and ice tonight and tomorrow. This should be fun.
IC I think we can help you a lot more if we had more details on how you are managing your koi. Do you mind answering the following questions?
1. How often do you test your water?
2. How often do you change out your water and what percentage of water (like a 20% change or a 50% change)?
3. How much do you feed your koi and how often?
4. Are you aware that the ammonia is from the urine and the poop? Don't estimate when to change water out from just the sight of the poop.
Regarding koi food-it should have an expiration date on it. Toss that old food. Would you like the remainder of my koi's food from summer? It might be expired by spring and it is the good expensive brand-Hikari. Do not purchase large quantities of food-Snapple has fish the size of a medium to small dog whereas you have tiny guys like me. Large quantities would go to waste. I also would not continue to feed MediKoi (only if you are in an emergency) because just like humans they can build up an intolerance and when you really need MediKoi to work it may not work because they will have resistance to it.
Don't get discouraged by your little indoor pond. I warned you (a few months ago)that it is very difficult to keep the koi in small containers even if you have the greatest filtration in the world. A lot of water needs to be changed out and often or they ar swimming in their own urine (amongest things). Don't hesitate to have rubbermaid tubs set up around your pond with fresh water ready in case of an emergency. I used to do that to cut down on work and would flip my koi into these with aeration and would completely clean out my holding tank. This would make for less work in the long run for me. The fish can be in a rubbermaid tank 24 hours if it is big enough and only 1-2 fish in each. I used the largest rubbermaid boxes at Target/Wal-Mart. They are 35-45 gallon containers. I put the lids on them to keep them clean until I used them. It made life easier for me with all the medical treatments and dips I had to do with my sick fish. If any of the fish suddenly would respond poorly to the medication I would flip them into a clean container of water and they would quickly respond to the change in a healthy way. I literally had 4-6 containers outside by my quaranteen area. Not a pretty site but it worked for me. and was cost effective and at the end of the summer I stored my pond equipment in these containers and stored them inside my basement. LOL!
Regarding the Koi Health and Disease book that Snapple wrote about food types. I have this book and looked it up for you.
One thing it states in the book is to never freeze your food-especially high quality food as the product will change. Shrimp or fish should be the first or second ingredient. Brands recommended are : Sho-Koi, Medicarp, Dianchi and Hikari. It also recommends that you alternate between two brands to guarantee that the fish get everything that they need. I hope this helps you. Again this is from Dr. Erik Johnson's (Koi-Vet website) book, called Koi Health and Disease - reloaded-2006 by Dr. Erik Johnson. The book has a lot of information but is very unorganized and not a fancy printed colored book but is my favorite booklet on Koi health.
MM I have the Koi Health and Disease book by Dr. Johnson. I copy and pasted your questions with my answers:
1. How often do you test your water?
-----------------Answer: I was testing twice per week, each time after a water change, but not before.
2. How often do you change out your water and what percentage of water (like a 20% change or a 50% change)?
-----------------Answer: I was changing water twice per week, on Saturday or Sunday and on Wednesday. The weekend changes were larger, around 40%. This past weekend I changed around 50% of the water on Saturday after I PP'd the pond, then on Sunday I changed another 20%. The weekday changes are smaller, around 15-20%.
3. How much do you feed your koi and how often?
-----------------Answer: Until I got my heaters about two weeks ago, I was feeding only once a day. I feed just a tiny pinch of crumbled pellets (I have to chop it up because the smallest size is still too big for these little fish). Since I set up my heaters, I have been feeding twice a day one day, then one day the next. I thought that when temperatures are above 70 degrees I need to feed twice a day. I keep my food refrigerated, which the guy from PondRx said is the best way to store koi food. He also told me that you can feed the medicated food for up to thirty days without worry about resistancy. I bought two different kinds of medicated food (different medicines) but only had MediKoi chopped up this morning so that is what I fed. They are each the smallest bag size, I think it is one pound, and there is no way I'll use it all up before it expires. I will chop up the other kind tonight and feed that once a day until I buy new high quality food. I will also lower my pond heater so they should not need as much food.
4. Are you aware that the ammonia is from the urine and the poop? Don't estimate when to change water out from just the sight of the poop.
--------------Answer: I thought water changes twice a week were enough, and I was not monitoring my ammonia daily, which I now know I need to do. I just read a passage in "Koi for Dummies" last night (that is my evening reading material, LOL) last night that said "monitor ammonia daily for new ponds." I think my biggest blunder was not to read "Koi for Dummies" cover to cover BEFORE beginning this indoor pond exploit.
I would like to get one or two small koi for this indoor pond to keep the others buddies but not until I get things figured out.
On the plus side, we outlined the area for the utilities company to mark and they should be doing that this week - sooooo, we'll see if I need to pick location #4.
More heartache - the matsuba died today. There are now only two koi left in the pond.
At least with him the death is fairly clear - the ammonia spike. When I took him out of the pond with the net, his gills were reddish. That is consistent with the heavy state of respiration I found him in yesterday.
I did another 40% water change tonight and lowered the pond temp to 70% and will go to feeding once every two days until the ammonia stabilizes.
Uhg! Keep your salt level up. Immediately after ammonia comes nitrite. Fish can't take it up if there is sufficient salt in the water. 1 tsp per gal. Remember to maintain that level with the water changes. It's going to be testing, testing, testing, for the next few days. Use that AmmoLock. It's very effective. Keep your chin up.
Seriously don't buy any more fish-you are having troubles keeping up with what you already have. I am so sorry that you lost another fish.
Regarding your answers, The water changes seem frequent enough but not compared to the amount you are feeding them. With the ammonia spikes that you have been having I would only feed I time per day or one time every other day. As you figured out, test your pond everyday so that there isn't a prolonged period of ammonia that goes unnoticed. Test the water for the next 14 days, same time each day for consistency and write down what the levels were for that day. Note if you fed them and number of times fed each day. Also note when the water changes were done and how much water. This way you can post the information here and a couple of other pairs of eyes can see how long it takes for the water to start going bad and then hopefully we can help you a little better. How do the gills of the remaining koi look right now? Are they showing any signs of struggle? Have you ever changed out all the water completely? I found with my small quarenteen tank that I had to do this weekly otherwise I was doing partial water changing everyday plus the fish never looked as good with a partial change versus a full water change. This is why I used the rubbermaid containers. It always made them feel better in freshly treated, same temperature water as their holding tank. The urine from the fish really can do a job on the ammonia levels. Remind me again of the size in gallons that your holding tank is?
So your probably wondering how my pond differs from my holding tank. Snapple, correct me if I am wrong. My pond is full of plants that help with the water problems. The plants thrive on the bad stuff from the fish. I have a 35 foot stream 70 % full of plants and a lot of different plants in the pond. I also have an automatic refill that is constantly running in the hot weather and it gives them that extra fresh water on a regular basis. I did do major water changes and did two complete water changes in the pond but only because of their health issues and to dig out the rocks from the bottom. I still do not know what state of health my fish will be in come Springtime but I have an appointment with that Japanese Koi dealer to come out and evaluate my pond system (he is doing it for free . . .). I am sure in March 2009 that I will be posting and asking questions on preventative medical treatments in Spring and also on clean up so that I can possible avoid all these health problems that I had last summer. When the Koi dealer comes I am going to have him look at slides of my koi under the microscope because it takes a very trained eye to know what you are looking at and what is typical and what is atypical. I found it exceedingly difficult and I am a biology major . . .LOL!
Anyway, take readings on your pond levels and record them. After about 7-14 days post them here so we can get a better idea about your water and filtration. BTW, I tested my pond nearly everyday this summer. I found I had 0 readings 99% of the time in ammonia and nitrates and nitrites. I am sure my fish problems came in with the fish and infected the other fish. That combined with my rocky bottom and fish spawning and my ignorance and lack of equipment to drain and refresh the water on a regular basis in the first 3 months caused a lot of my heartache. I keep thinking that I want to rent a backhoe/bobcat-whatever and dig deeper into my pond area and add 1-2 bottom drains to help me maintain the pond health. I think 4-5 feet deep would be better for my fish. Definitely the drains would be better for them as well. . .
MM, I had really thought of having rocks in my pond before I read all of your posts and started posting on here (I did lurk for a few weeks before I dove in, LOL). Your experiences alone are enough for me to say "No Rocks!"
My indoor pond is 270 gallons when filled to the brim, it is probably about 250 regularly as I leave an inch and a half at the top.
No, I never noticed the respiratory problems on the other two fish. I read somewhere on Monday that solid colored koi do poorly with potassium permanganate, of course that was two days after I had doused my pond. Since the matsuba was solid colored, I wonder if that was a problem for him? I cannot find the link and it was only one one website that I read that, so I don't know if that is an "aquatic urban legend" or what.
Today the remaining two fish, Poppy the sanke and Blade the showa were doing well. I was not going to name the showa, but decided to anyway by giving him a ridiculous name, you know, to toughen him up : ) I named Poppy the sanke after my husband's cat that I don't like and that fish (I think it is a she) is just tough as nails. Today Poppy and Blade came out from under their fake lily pads and started darting around the pond and went to the middle where I normally give them their food and looked expectant. I told them they have to wait until tomorrow. I'm only going to feed them every other day until the biological filtration gets going. No evidence of any respiratory distress, fins free moving, no jerky movements.
It is true that different types of fish behave differently to different treatments. I have a solid colored fish that I did PP on and it is still alive today. Sometimes the fish are too far gone to recover from illness even with the right treatment. I have one fish that has lived through it all and has been on the verge of death more than a few times and is still alive. She is also solid colored. She has a lot of scaring from ulcers and some of her solid color is changing and fading. It was a rough summer for her. She is one of the remaining first three koi I bought and I believe they were the fish who came into my pond with all the health problems. She is also the fish who I worry about the most right now because she had ulcers that had not completely healed prior to an iced over pond.
IC: Keep in mind that you don't know what happened to the fish prior to buying them. They could have been oxygen deprived in transit to the retailer. This would cause them to struggle and die no matter how hard you work to keep them alive.
Your tank is quite big next to mine and you only have two small fish. I only have 75 gallons and I had a lot more fish and much bigger than your and they needed a lot more fresh water. The only thing I can think is that the ammonia is high because you are feeding them too much and the filters can't keep up. What size tank is your filtration rated for? If it isn't overfeeding and filter not keeping up then it would have to be a fish disease that you have not teated them for. This is when a microscope comes in handy. I treated my fish for everything under the sun and then it turned out to be fish lice and all the medicines I used do not work on the lice except lice specific medicines. I also PP the pond like a mad woman with the fish out to kill everything and anything.