I have my first casualty in the baby koi pond. They are now the "Fabulous Three plus one barely hanging on." Yesterday I came home from work, took the turkey out of the freezer to thaw in the fridge, went to feed the baby koi and SCREAMED. Katrina was floating, dead, on the top. Hubby came running down the stairs into the basement and I was already getting the netting off the pond so I could get the deceased out. I read everywhere that a net is one of those crucial things and I actually ordered a good one when I ordered all my filtration equipment, so this was its first use. For the past few days, Katrina and Piggy spent most of their time at the surface, skimming around with their heads up, but I did not notice them eating much at meal times. Andy said that he did see Katrina acting weird yesterday but didn't tell me - he was pretty sure there was nothing we could do.
I bought them on November 7 or thereabouts. Some of the books I've read suggest that mortalities from stress can come a month or more after the stressful event(s). All my water results showed up as being fine - Nitrites and Nitrates at 0, pH at 7.5, salt at .06%. One thing that I did notice was that a large amount of solid fish waste had accumulated under the koi castle, which I removed, washed off and stored elsewhere - it is not going back into the baby pond because I think it messed up the water flow. There was fish waste no where else in the pond, the Laguna filter and pump do an amazing job of removing everything...except what was under the koi castle. I hand-siphoned out more than 90% of the fish waste, then used the backwash feature on the filter to remove about 50% of the water. I turned the hose on barely a trickle and over the next 3 hours most of the water was replaced in the pond - I did add dechlor at the site where the water was entering the pond from the hose and tested every 1/2 hour to make sure nitrates/nitrites were not building up.
I removed Piggy into a five gallon bucket with an aerator for a few hours (before doing the siphoning and water change). I added Piggy back to the 270 gallon pond before we went to bed because s/he looked okay. I inspected Piggy and did not see any visual indication of infection or illness. Parasites cannot (at least in theory) be a problem - I used Prazi nine- days ago on the whole system and everyone was fine. After the Prazi I gave them antibiotic sinking food twice a day for five days.
I fed very lightly this morning and will not feed again today. I was feeding them 2-3 times a day, all food would be consumed within 10 minutes. The temperature in the basement varies from 67-70 degrees and I do not have a thermometer in the water but I assume it stays around 62+ degrees. The pond is in contact with the concrete floor, so I think it stays a few degrees cooler than the air around it.
There were no growths or anything like that on Katrina and Piggy looked fine, just not acting right. This morning, s/he was still alive but doing that hanging out at the surface thing, head up, did not eat when the others did. The three healthy-acting fish ate then went back to hiding under the fake lily pads. On Sunday and Monday Piggy and Katrina were showing fearlessness, I foolishly thought they were just now "used to me."
What went wrong? My hubby insists that I didn't do anything wrong - that sometimes fish, especially small fish bought inexpensively from a big-box store, just don't thrive. If I had to pinpoint something, I think I may have overfed and the koi castle was too big for the pond, thus messing up the flow of water and providing a space for waste to accumulate. Piggy was a very enthusiastic eater for the first week, then not as much. I have not seen him/her eat in a few days, same for Katrina, whereas all the others are eating and having normal flight tendencies. Maybe something congenital or maybe they suffered trauma before I got them and it took awhile to show?
Sorry for the very long post; I wanted to provide as much background information as possible.
Elizabeth
High Drama and Heartache in the Baby Koi Pond
What's the ammonia reading? At 62 degrees they don't need a large amount of food. Are you feeding high carbohydrate spring/fall formula or high protein summer staple formula? Water temperature dictates which one you use. Around sixty degrees is the bubble for choosing which you use. Your DH is right. Koi can have endured all kinds of trauma before they landed in your pond, but you're the unfortunate beneficiary. Can you slip a large piece of the pink sheet insulation under the pond to create a barrier between the cement floor and the pond bottom? It will definitely help keep the water warmer. The warmer the water the better the immune system functions to battle disease.
The pH reading is 7.0 - latest one taken a few minutes ago. (EDITED: replaced "ammonia" with "pH")
I'm feeding summer food (first ingredient fishmeal) and will go to one feeding a day and stay there until I can either get some foam under the pond or a heater in there to bring temperatures up.
I thought of slipping a piece of the pink insulation under there yesterday when I was doing the water change, but I let that thought go. I would have had to take out all of the fish and completely empty the pond, because my DH CANNOT (and I will not let him) lift anything heavier than 25 pounds until 2009, because he had hernia surgery at the beginning of November. I can't lift the pond at all by myself with any water in it.
Piggy is holding on, still swimming at the top with his/her head up, a little wobbly when I lean down to look at him and not exhibiting a normal flight response. I wish I knew what was going on.
This message was edited Nov 27, 2008 11:52 AM
Are you sure? That's way, way too high.
http://koiclubsandiego.org/library/ammonia.php
EEEEEkkkkkkkkk on the Ammonia-get an ammonia lock and get the fish into new water-yes it's stressful but your ammonia reading is killing them (I know this-I killed a bunch this past summer). Do you remember me telling you that those little tanks and pumps can't keep up (especially in the beginning with new filters/bacteria)? I found it incredibly difficult to keep my tank clean and changed out the water 80% or more every 2-4 days. I ended up transferring all the fish into many different rubbermaid tanks with my bubblers going until the stock tank was emptied and refilled and treated and it warmed up to the little holding containers. No fished died from me doing this (stress wise). I did have them die from high ammonia levels and not enough knowledge to know what was going on until it was too late. It killed me that I did this and wasn't even aware of what was going on.
When you see your fish gasping on the water surface for air know that this is an urgent situation. The fish cannot breathe-something is wrong with the water and the oxygen levels. Do you have a good air pump? Whenever the koi get sick and you have to add medicines you need to add more air so that they survive. I killed a bunch of fish this way because I didn't add additional air with a medical treatment (please learn from my mistakes).
Now the fish that died-were they the larger fish? Usually with oxygen issues the biggest die first. Get the new water in the tank, treat it, add the aeration and I personally would add salt. The lack of oxygen put a lot of stress on the fish and the salt will speed up their recovery and possibly halt an outbreak of a parasite that is dormant in their system.
Regarding food. Feed them only one time each day in a tank for only 5 minutes. They don't need that much food and too much food causes high waste levels thus high ammonia levels.
I hope that you already started acting on the water changes and that your fish are feeling better. Don't hesitate to post more questions here for help. I had sooooooo many problems this summer and learned the hard way but had so much great support and hand holding and advice on this site. I don't know how I would have made it through the summer. I hope you feel as comfortable here as I did. . . crying my eyes out!
Linda
Happy Thanksgiving! I am worried about your fish-please update me!
SORRY - pH yesterday was 7, I edited the post to correct! I just retested and it is 6.5. My koi diseases book said that pH between 5.5 - 8.0 is an acceptable range. The bottom range of my test kit is 6.0. I don't have an ammonia specific test - I do have Ammo Lock in the water, though, so ammonia should not be a problem?
Only one fish died so far - two days ago, Katrina. Piggy is still holding on, just swimming at the surface, but s/he is able to dive. No visible anything wrong - no spots, nothing like that. Just swimming in place at the surface in the quiet corner of the pond.
MM - they are not gasping at the surface at all, Piggy is just hanging around at the surface not doing much of anything - upright, though! Claire comes up to beg when she sees me checking on Piggy, then goes back to hiding under the lily pads with Poppy and Lil Bit when she realizes I'm not there to feed them. All of the fish look well except for Piggy, who is just swimming at the surface in one corner of the pond, as s/he has been since Sunday. The largest fish is Poppy, who is only about 3/4 of an inch longer than Piggy but much broader/wider. The pump's capacity is 900 gph, the water appears to be very well aerated.
I ordered a titanium 1,000 watt heater with control pad yesterday night, after I ran out to buy a water thermometer. The heater has a range of 65-95 degrees in up to 400 gallons. My pond is only 270 gallons. The water temperature this morning was only 60 degrees, so it is cooler than I thought. This morning, the temperature was only 58 degrees. I am going to try to get the water up to 75 degrees to make things easier on the baby koi. Unfortunately, the heater won't arrive until probably the end of next week. I also added more of the biological filter starter yesterday afternoon.
We have relatives coming over later for Thanksgiving dinner, one of my husband's uncles kept aquarium fish for a very long time (20+ years) so I'm going to make sure to pick his brain to see what he thinks is going on.
I'll update tonight after everyone leaves. Gotta run now and get to cleaning up the house!
Thanks everyone,
Elizabeth
Linda, just also wanted to add that I did do a 50% water change on Tuesday night after I found Katrina dead. I have just enough dechlor left (Petco is out) for one more 50% change so I'm hesitant at this point to do another change until I have more on hand.
Elizabeth
Snapple, after reading the San Diego Koi Club page you posted, I can see why the response was "eek!" when I mixed up pH and ammonia. Tomorrow I will pick up an ammonia test - no place is open today.
DH made a run to Walmart today to get napkins and...bless his heart...the fish section of the store carries ammonia tests and dechlor. He picked up a bottle of dechlor for me and an ammonia test.
I tested the water and ammonia level is 0.25.
Piggy is still hanging on.
Elizabeth
That ammonia level is waaaayyyyyyyy better. Good for you (and Piggy). There is a chance that Piggy might have suffered brain damage from a lack of oxygen and this may be why he kinda hangs around. I adopted a fish this summer that was gorgeous but was exposed to a lack of oxygen due to a shipping mishap and an additional 24 hours in a bag designed for a max of 24 hours. He was kinda goofy-he would just hang around in the same place and stare up at me. He lacked any socialization skills and eventually he died about a month later. As you know I had a lot of sickness in my pond this summer and when you have a weak link in the pond they tend to be the first to get seriously sick/die. I knew he was exposed to this oxygen deprivation situation when I adopted him and thought it was like a special needs child and no problem but now I know better and won't do that again-no matter how cute the fish is.
What do you think made the ammonia level go down-the water change? Did you add salt into the tank for safekeeping? Seriously consider that to lessen their stress.
I don't know what the ammonia level was before today, because I did not have an ammonia test kit (big mistake I won't make again!) - it was probably high before I did the water change on Tuesday. I had salt in the tank already and re-added after the water change.
Linda, it sounds like Piggy is doing what the fish you adopted did...I don't have the heart to euthanize Piggy as long as he doesn't show any signs of disease. I hope he will either recover or quietly pass on. Andy (my hubby) thinks that Piggy is getting better, but I don't think so. I think he is about the same. Uncle Mark, who kept freshwater fish for 20+ years, looked at Piggy and thought it is probably some sort of brain damage as well. He sternly warned me not to add any more fish until the biological filtration is completely ramped up, at least a month. He also told me I need to raise the water temps (I told him about the heater I ordered) and feed only once a day when the water temp is below 70 degrees. So, lots of things I need to get right, probably no one thing that I will be able to point to.
Don't euthanize Piggy, just love him and enjoy him. He may live a long life if your pond levels can stay healthy.
BTW: Do you know how to humanely euthanize a koi? You can get oil of cloves at a healthfood store and you would add it into a bag of water that holds the fish. I knew this prior to getting fish in my pond and thought I would get it when I needed it. Unfortunately, I had an injured fish that needed to be put down on a holiday weekend on a Sunday and nothing was open. It killed me to have to wait and watch a fish suffer.
Things should improve once you monitor and manage the ammonia levels. There will be a big improvement when the water gets warmed up too.
Ammonia levels usually peak in the first two weeks than begin to drop when the nitrosomonas bacteria convert it to nitrite. You're out of the ammonia woods but in the nitrite woods. Nitrite is toxic. You can prevent the fish from taking it up ( through osmosis) by keeping a salt level of .01 to .02, which has me curious about your salt level reading of .06. That's an OK level for a very short term salt bath dip but too high as a maintenance level. How are you measuring the salt level?
The last stage in cycling the pond filter is the conversion of nitrite to nitrate by nitrobacter bacteria. Nitrates are not nearly as big a problem killer as the deadly ammonia and nitrite. You manage nitrates with water changes and just general good pond housekeeping.
As you've learned already water changes are good for everything. In the early cycling period when the ammonia starts to roar it might be daily. Even if you use AmmoLock sometimes ammonia can still get out of chemical control if the fish load is high and there is any overfeeding.
You've got about a month to go. Maybe less once you get the water temp up. If you do decide to empty the pond and slide insulation underneath do it as quick as you can. Don't let the filter sit idle too long or the bacteria will die off and then you'll be starting all over again. Put the koi in big buckets with air stones. You can pick up a small aquarium air pump pretty cheap and get a multi-gang outlet. One air pump can be connected to three to as many as five air stones. They'll be fine for a short period in a bucket with the air bubbler. When refilling the pond try to get the water temp the same as it was.
Do not mess with the pH. As you know koi can tolerate a wide pH range. What they don't tolerate is a rapid change in pH.
Now, isn't ponding fun?
Snapple: "Isn't ponding fun" ????? Had I known that I would be getting a chemical engineering degree and an advanced biology course with the pond plus a veterinary license I doubt I would have added the fish!!! It is so overwhelming in the beginning but it does get better some how. Before I knew it I was getting very knowledgeable in the fish, koi and pond arena.
I think you're way more knowledgable than me about some koi diseases. I'm the "if in doubt dip in PP" gal. Because it treats nearly every ill I probably rely it on too much. Luckily I have had only saprolegnia to deal with the last few years and it's easy to take of if you catch it right away. Odd that only one fish ever gets it and it's the same fish every spring. Other than that I'm good, knock on wood. But having just one koi too many in a crowded pond can throw off the whole thing and I'm close to the tipping point. I may be D-mailing you for advice! I also might be looking for koi adopters.
Regarding salt, I'm using a salt measuring test kit - the one where you add the drops of reagent B and agitate until the water turns purple. According to the kit, salt level is optimal at .1 % if plants are present in the water and .2% if there are no plants.
I took Piggy out today and put him in his own five gallon bucket with an aerator - he looked horrible this afternoon. He looked "filmy". His eyelids looked puffy. He is still alive, but I don't know for how long. He was barely moving. I'm not going to add him back with the other fish unless he completely recovers. Hubby looked at Piggy in the bucket about an hour ago and said "That fish is a goner." He seemed to be making a comeback last night, but today he looks really terrible.
After I took Piggy out, I did another partial water change (about 30%).
Describe filmy. Do you mean he has a white cottony coating on him? Or a slimy boogery coating? If it's slimey-it's too much salt-his slime coat is over produced. Cottony is a disease that can be treated. Can you take a picture and post it for us to see if we can help you?
Also, I don't know what you are referring to with the reagent quote-what brand of kit are you using? What level do you have your salt at?
I have a test kit from this summer that I don't need/use because I went with a digital kit-do you want it? I try not to expose myself to all the chemicals in those test kits and have gone digital in most ways (when I can find the right testing equipment). In the long run the digital will be more cost effective because I won't have to repurchase supplies and it is faster and more convenient and I won't be exposed to all the harmful chemicals in a lot of the kits.
What books have you read regarding the koi and their health/diseases? There are a lot of them out there but not all of them are worth the money. Do you have a library near you where you can check some books out? Look for books with pictures of the various disease so you can determine what is wrong with Piggy. It was smart to remove Piggy from the rest until you can figure out what is wrong with him. Do you have a bubbler in with Piggy for oxygen assistance?
MM
You're right ic. .06 is not .6. Darn those pesky decimal points. You can increase the salt level to .2 for the tank.
Excessive production of the slime coat is probably a sign you're going to lose the fish. Is there any way you can get the water warmer now and maintain it ? I know you're waiting for a pond heater but warmer water would really help this fish. Maybe even moving it upstairs where the ambient temperature would assist? Keep a second bucket with warm clean conditioned water ready for changes. Their immune system just doesn't function as well at lower body temperatures.
Piggy passed away today somewhere around 11:00 a.m. I checked on him before we went to bring a few old computers to the recycling center and he was on the bottom of his bucket, but still alive. When we got back, he had passed away. He looked very peaceful. Piggy did have a bubbler for oxygen and I had elevated his bucket, the temperature in his water since yesterday was around 65 degrees, so it was warmer than his companions. After he passed away and I buried him, I soaked the 5 gallon bucket with a bleach solution and soaked the net for a few minutes as well, then washed both items very thoroughly with warm clean water and am letting them air dry. I cut off the ends of the bubbler that were in the quarantine pond because I can't think of any good way to disinfect those.
The books I own are Koi Appreciation, Koi Health & Diseases (the "Koi Vet" book - which I've read cover to cover), Koi for Dummies, and two more whose names escape me. One is the Tetra book on koi, which is a bit dated (I purchased it used) - so dated in fact that it does not advocate quarantine for new fish! I'm not putting too much weight in that book. I still have not found anything that really describes what Piggy had and his symptoms for the past six days. He didn't have any white cottony coating or anything else that looked bacterial or fungal, just excessive slime coat that began yesterday afternoon, which is when I moved him to the quarantine bucket. The other three fish in the tank are doing well and I'm in the process of doing another partial water change today (that siphon is slooooow).
I have been religious about not feeding more than once a day, no mater how much I want to! I didn't feed Piggy yesterday or today because he was not interested in food anyway.
I'll build the temperature up slowly in the 270 gallon pond once I have the heater, probably 2 or 3 degrees a day over a week until I have it around 75 degrees. Unfortunately it will probably be the middle or end of next week when it arrives. This is the one I purchased: http://www.fishtanksdirect.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=216
This is the salt level test kit that I have: https://www.pondrx.com/products/16179.html
I was going to bring the bucket upstairs today if Piggy survived, but yesterday after my hubby told me that the fish looked like a goner, I really lost hope. He really did deteriorate rapidly beginning around noon yesterday, he really looked like he was rallying, which I've heard can happen in both people and animals before they die. I am glad that he is no longer suffering.
Elizabeth
Elizabeth,
I am so sorry. It's always heartbreaking when we lose a pet.
Regards,
Carolyn
I'm truly sorry about Piggy. Welcome to the not so fun side of ponding. The causes of a koi death are quite often impossible to pin down. All you can do is your best and hope. My favorite koi, at the age of 7yrs was fine in the morning for the morning feeding and dead at 6:00pm. There was not a mark on him. He was totally asymptomatic in the days and hours before. I couldn't find anything in his mouth or his gills. All the other koi were fine. That was the wierdest one I've ever encountered. I still miss that koi. I buried him in the back garden. My daughter even came over to say goodby before we buried him.
Except for the Tetra book I've got the same references you do. I also have The Completely Illustrated Guide To Koi For Your Pond by Dr. Herbert R. Axelrod. He's a world class expert on koi breeding who first bred the butterfly koi. If the Tetra book's author is Helen Nash, she's pretty good. She has quite a few books out there and I've found one of them to be quite helpful, but at the moment I can't lay my hands on it.
With koi it's all about water quality first. Master that and diseases have a hard time taking hold. Keep it well filtered and well oygenated in the warm months with no sludge accumulation and do an occaisional partial water change. The schedule to do that depends on your fish load, rainfall and any sludge. Clean the pond filters frequently. I have to clean mine about every other day when it's hot. Keep any and all leaves out as they fall. In the winter salt the pond up to .2 and keep a hole open in the ice at all times. It's really that simple. No magic formula, just maintenance, maintenance, maintenance.
Now algae management is another story. Rather than go into a long dissertation here I'll save it for spring. Just make sure you install a UV sufficient for your pond volume and flow rate. Never mind the expense. This is one place where you definitely don't want to economize.
I am so very sorry to hear that Piggy didn't make it. I found it so heartbreaking when a fish died (or more than one and I started to panic . . .). Don't beat yourself up about it but try to figure out what happened to Piggy. It could have been just a lack of oxygen and it put him over the edge.
Of the books you own, I also own the KoiVet book. I found it to be the most resourceful book on my shelf. it does lack in organizational layout but I figure it was written by a vet and published by a vet and the information is very good. His website is also great with movies to show your various health issues and what different parasite look like under the microscope. I actually copied sections of it for my vet to have on file at his office so that I can obtain the medications I need in a timely manner (and my vet can cross reference the KoiVet book. Another book I like is called Manual of Koi Health by Keith Holmes and Tony Pitham. It has great pictures in the book of various diseases. I may have gotten it from my MIL (who lives in England) and it may not be available here but you can always try Amazon.comuk and order it that way if you feel the need. I always try and get it at my local library first or request that they get it from another library for me to look at before I buy a book. This is an expensive hobby and I don't need a collection of crappy books that add no value to me by identifying koi types when I want to know why my fish are dying at an alarming rate.
Another place besides Dave's garden that I get great "real" information from (not second and third place regurgitated information that is wrong) is Bonnie's plants. (do a google search). The beauty of this sight is that the store owner (Bonnie) actually does all the replying regarding the health and treatment of fish issues. Unlike Koivet's forum which I don't like very much because they have multiple people who can respond to your problem and I found that they often don't give you the answer to your questions but a lot of other questions and they get sidetracked and in the meantime 4 fish have died and your biting your nails wishing that they would get to the real question and answer and stop discussing the pro's and con's of pumps or drains or to do a whole pond redesign when all you really want to know is what to do for your dying fish. There was a lot of arrogance there as well and I don't have the time to kiss up to someone and tell them just how great they are . . . just to get some decent information about helping my poor fish.
Okay, I'm done with my epic novel. I just wanted to share some other qualified good sources for additional opinions regarding medical treatment of your koi.
I hope your fab three continue to be healthy. Keep a close eye on them and watch for any changes in behavior. Have you taken any pictures of the deceased fish that we can look at to see if we notice anything that might give an indication of what happened to them? Take some pictures of the remainder koi and post those as well so we can take a peek and see if anything is amiss.
Good luck and again I am sorry about your fish losses.
One more fish is "not looking right." Claire, the fish that started acting funny when the other two got sick, then seemed to do better after the other two died, is now acting off. The fish does not even have many symptoms per se. When the other two were hanging out at the surface about two weeks ago, this one was near them but did dive if I approached the pond to look at them. After the one fish died, this one went back to hanging out in the middle/bottom with the other two.
I dosed the pond with Prazi the week before the other fish, who died, started to show signs that something was not right so there should not be any parasites in the pond. That was about a month ago that I dosed the pond with Prazi. I still have Prazi in my arsenal, as well as Pond Fizz Tabs (potassium permanganate) that I ordered last week when I ordered more Ammo Lock. A little over a week ago I began feeding Medi Koi for the koi's one meal per day, as per the manufacturer's directions, to deal with any bacterial/fungal problems that might be present. I had to chop it into smaller pieces for the fish and they seem to like it. I plan on keeping them on that for another full week, as the bag says to feed it for 14 days. The dual heaters are working well and the water temperature is at 72 degrees. The salt leel in the pond is .12. I had my UV turned off for a week to try to let the good bacteria get a good start and added Biostart which each partial water change. I turned my UV back on yesterday afternoon. I really want to avoid putting more medicine in the water at this point because I'm afraid it will kill whatever good bacteria I've managed to grow so far. I know the Pond Fizz tabs would sterilize everything.
Yesterday I noticed Claire flash a few times but took that to be annoyance with the water change. I've been doing partial (30%) water changes twice a week and siphon out koi poopies when I see them to try to keep their environment as clean and ammonia-free as possible until the biological filtration starts to work. Claire has been acting more normal in the past week, kind of making an effort to hang out with the other two fish, but yesterday just didn't look right. She flashed a few times in the evening, which could have just been annoyance with the water change. Historically, she is the least interested in food of all the fish, whereas the others eat with relish she eats just a piece or so of food. It would be safe to call her "waifish" in appearance. The other two look plump. The other two dart around the tank, whereas swimming from one end to another looks to be a strain for Claire, who is not nearly as fast a swimmer. This morning, after the other two enjoyed breakfast, Claire came up to the surface and hung out 2-3 inches below while I watched. She looks skinny and I don't know what to do. She looks nowhere near as bad as Piggy did when he died, but kind of looks like Piggy did the first day I suspected something was wrong.
I'm just not sure what is going on with Claire and whether I should pull her and isolate her in a bucket with a bubbler. I don't want to jeapordize the two healthy fish that I have. I really like Poppy the sanke and if I can keep that fish alive I would be happy. The bucket that I have is not big enough for a heater, so Claire would be in there with just a bubbler and the water would get back to around 65-67 degrees, the ambient temperature when raised off the floor of the basement. Since I know that Claire was acting funny when the other two got sick/died a few weeks ago, I'm so hesitant to just take a wait and see approach, leaving her with the apparently healthy fish. On the other hand, putting her in the bucket might be a death sentence since it will mean no added heat and a drop in temperature by five degrees.
One other thing - I have a pleco in this tank. It is about 6". Is there any way the pleco could be making problems for the koi? I read last week that plecos do get aggressive when they get bigger. Also, I think the Fizz tabs would kill the pleco, another reason I don't want to jump to medicatin the whole pond just yet. I might be able to medicate just the bucket, if I can break off a small piece from one of the tabs.
So, in summary Claire's symptoms are these: sluggishness, hanging out near the surface, not interested in food, not really hanging around the other fish. Nothing visibly wrong with the fish other than looking skinny compared to the other two (this fish was not plump to start with and is so small it is hard to tell if it is body type - she does not look to have lost or gained weight in the 5 weeks I've had her, she is about 4 1/2 inches in length). She is a solid light gold color with no markings, no swelling, no spots, no excess of slime, no fuzz or anything like that.
Ugh....
Anyone have an opinion as to what might be going on and what course of action I should take? Of course a lot of this rides on what Claire will look like when I get home later today. If she is looking visibly worse she'll go in the bucket.
This message was edited Dec 8, 2008 4:34 PM
I'm not much help here. I couldn't diagnose "Momma" with any certainty and I had visible symptoms. The dealer who took her today is raising the water temperature in the quarantinte tank to - are you ready? 79 degrees. She says that's optimal to get the fish's immune system ramped up to the max. That was a surprise. They are raising the temp 5 degrees an hour. That was a surpise too. They're starting with the pond water temp of 40.2. Someone will be with Momma straight through until they get to 79 on schedule. This koi dealer is GOOD! But then it is a breeding female with real good confirmation.
As I have been through the last few days, trying to get a koi healthy is so frustrating because you don't always know what you're treating. If you want to give Claire a shot, get her warmer, not colder.
After I thought about the 5 degrees an hour rise in temperature I realised that koi tolerate that kind of temperature swing in an open pond environment with no adverse effects.
The only other thing I can think of is to get some Baytril and syringes from the vet. Koi Health and Diseases has the dosing amount and schedule. You would need a pretty tiny needle. I don't do peritoneal injections. Too great a risk of hitting an internal organ. There is a small scaleless sweet spot behind the pectoral fin that is easy to find and easy to inject. I've done two koi that way. The first one I did ( 2 yrs ago) was showing signs of success in 24 hrs. Momma, as you know, was another story due to the cold water. If you want to try the injection thing I've got the dosing calculations for goldfish, which are about the same size as Claire.
Don't give up on Claire just yet. Crank up the heat.
I'll crank up the heat. I've been raising it only 3 or so degrees A DAY since I put it in last week because I was nervous about raising it too quickly. I started with 60 degrees last week.
I can't try to do injections on this small a fish - plus at a cost of $6.99 for the fish, I really cannot justify the cost. Don't get me wrong, we spend nearly $200 per MONTH on meds for one of our corgis, but for a recently acquired tiny fish, I don't think hubby would go along, especially since we've lost two fish already. If this was a healthy, larger established population, that would be a whole other story.
Time to drive home through the freezing rain!
You're right. On a $6.99 koi I wouldn't either. I'd get the heat up and try to tempt her with the medicated feed. In a couple of days you'll know one way or the other. Remember that the temperature change upward will make the other koi very active and very hungry. The rise in temp will also lower the oxygen in the water somewhat and increase the load on the filter. All things to take into consideration for maintenance.
In your summary of her symptoms you neglected to say she is "flashing". Parasites cause flashing. I looked up flashing in a few of my books and water changes are not listed as a cause of flashing-especially as you are taking care of any elements that might be in the water.
Also, when did you add the new fish (pleco)? I know nothing about this fish type and if it is aggressive or not isn't important at this time but WHEN did you buy it and how long did you quaranteen it? I would up the salt to .3 and see if the flashing stops. All the fish need treatment so don't isolate the fish. Koi are very social fish and isolating a fish causes them stress and unhappiness. You already had death in the tank and something is still going on with your school. Also, how many treatments of prazi did you do? When I treated I was recommended to 2-3 treatments to be on the safe side of killing off any bugs. In the end my fish had a simple parasite called fish lice with an entirely different treatment.
I hope your fish problems right themselves. I feel like I lived the exact situation this past summer that you are enduring. Keep me posted.
Snapple: Don't you treat with one type of medicine primarily? I kinda remember you being a repeat user of Proform C of something similar to that. Please recommend. Was it Malchite greeen (spelling) combo?
Potassium permanganate. PP. I use this for ulcers or parasites or fungus. Used properly it is 99.9% effective on all external parasites and external bacteria. Used improperly, you can easily kill your fish. I first began using it when I had cold water aquariums and goldfish.
For external ulcers you can treat the affected fish instead of the enitre pond, by either dippping the fish in PP or making a paste with it and applying it to just the ulcer area with a Q-tip. You only have to do it once.
Used in the whole pond, it will knock down the filter bacteria and could wipe it out entirely. I've never completely "lost" the filter when I've treated the whole pond. Some good bacteria must manage to survive and it repopulates very, very quickly.
I also use it to dip new fish before adding them to the pond. If you want the dip directions I'll dig out the book and post them. PP stains clothes brown, permanently. It will stain your skin too, but that fades fast.
So, instead of a shelf full of parasite or fungal treatments I've got my jug of PP. That's all I need for anything external. Internal, I call the vet and get syringes and Baytril. That's my first aid arsenal - just those two things.
PP is powerful and requires EXACT attention to dosing and timing when dipping. Use with caution and respect if dipping.
http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/FishHealth/PP.html
http://store.inlandkoi.com/popepo1lb.html
https://www.pondrx.com/products/16133.html
I upped the water when I got home, it was at 73 degrees and I turned the dial on the heaters up to 80 degrees. By 10 pm, the last time I checked, everyone looked fine (Claire the same) and the water was up to 75 degrees. This morning when I went to check on the fish and give them their morning food, Claire was dead, floating on top. I removed her and looked her over - no evidence of parasites, fungus, ulcers or anything like that. I gave the other fish their morning food and the remainders ate vociferously.
Last weekend, a few days after Piggy died, my hubby did buy two new small koi for me - I don't think that they brought anything in the house (they took right to the MediKoi). So, I have four in the tank right now. They all ate their MediKoi this morning and have been eating every day, whereas Claire was not eating much over the past few days at all. The last time I actually saw her eat, probably Friday, she did spit some food out and then eat it again. The Dr. Johnson book said spitting is usually either a sign something is stuck in their mouth (since there is nothing in the tank, like gravel, and it is indoors, unlikely) or gill flukes.
MM, it was not "flashing" as in non-stop or even consistent, just one flash while I would be down watching over the course of fifteen minutes or so. I THOUGHT that it only happened after a water change, as that is when I noticed it. However, this morning one of the last two of the original "fabulous five" - Lil Bit - did flash twice - though not on the sides or bottom of the pond, kind of just in the middle - before I gave them their MediKoi. Lil Bit HAS NOT isolated himself like Claire did, is schooling with the other three fish, is eating (and never stopped eating), and is not hanging out near the surface (nor has he ever - he is the most skittish of the fish). He is not looking waifish, though he is a small fish, but he is proportional in length and width.
Poppy (who is a tank - really a vigorous fish) and Lil Bit are the only two left of the fabulous five. The two "new" fish, from the same pet store, seem fine and are eating well. The place has been in there since the fab five - they were all in the same tank at the pet store, including the pleco.
Should I PP the pond this evening? My salt is at .10 as of this morning and I read in a few places that the pond cannot have salt it in before using PP. Do I need to empty the pond or can I dilute it enough that the salt and PP will not interact? Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates were all zero. Ph at 7.0. Temperature is 78 degrees. Should I be feeding the MediKoi twice a day with the temperature that high?
I'm really tempted to use PP in the pond. I have it at home and it is in the tablet form (easy to measure). I bought the tablets on purpose, even though they are like twice the price per weight as anything else, just because I did not want to leave dosage of PP to chance. One tablet per 50 gallons - I have a 270 gallon pond not quite filled to the top so I figure 250 gallons - 5 tablets. I also have hydrogen peroxide, which will neutralize PP if I overdo it (though with the tabs that should not happen). I have supplemental oxygen in there and can turn off the filter - the directions on the package I have say to turn off the filter for two days and then turn it back on.
I spent two hours going through my koi books last night - I just knew Claire was not going to make it, just had that gut feeling - and I just have the niggling doubt that I'm dealing with parasites but I can't figure out WHAT. In "The Essential Book of Koi" there is a picture of a fish in the section on flukes that looks EXACTLY how Piggy did right before I stuck him in isolation and he died. Claire just wasted away and didn't have any other signs, no excess slime coat production - Piggy was the only one with the excess slime coat but Piggy also held on for about a week whereas Claire just started looking thinner/less interested in food on Friday. Katrina just dropped dead a few days before Piggy started to look bad so I'm counting her as an outlier. Whatever Piggy had, I think is what killed Claire. The Prazi that I have says it only takes one dose, but it also doesn't work on nearly as many parasites as PP, so if it is something other than worms or flukes the Prazi would not have killed it.
I was so exasperated this morning, I just said to my husband "I'm not going to bother digging the pond next year if I can't even keep these fish alive!" The whole reason I want a pond is to keep koi!
Don't use PP with salt in the pond. Please don't give up either. If your want to use PP first do some water changes to reduce the salt. I don't salt my pond during the active ponding months at all. I just salt up for winter. My pond has a natural overflow. Rains and snow over the winter eventually reduce the salt level. The first healthy water changes in the spring knocks it down almost completely. I know you're frustrated. I know this is maddening. You got sold some sick koi. It's not your fault. You are doing the best you can.
I went back up and skimmed your posts again and didn't see you mention ProForm C. It's a good broad spectrum parasite and fungal treatment that won't knock out the filter bacteria. I used it before I got on to PP. In your situation that might be a good alternative. Review this link.
http://www.koipondcentral.com/koi_health/proformc.html
Thanks Snapple, I am so frustrated. You are right, I have not used ProForm C and don't have any on hand. The link you sent me says not to use with salt levels above .05% and I have .10%. It seems I cannot use anything other than Prazi with salt in the water. I have some Tetra brand formalin in my garage and I really don't want to use that because it will put formaldehyde in the duct work and disperse it throughout the house. We have cats, parrots and dogs in addition to the koi and I don't want to endanger them (or myself) with the fumes. ProForm C would do the same thing, I just cannot risk using it in the house and hubby would be infuriated if I did.
I'll do a partial water change today and keep doing partial water changes to get the salt out of the tank and try the PP when I get the salt to almost non-existant, but I'll have to wait a few days after the last water change or the dechlor will inactivate the PP. It seems dechlor deactivates quite a few things, I wonder if it did that with the the Prazi.
Oh! Particularly the parrots! I keep forgetting that we're talking about indoor administration here. I must remember that in the future. Keep your chin up.
I just told my hubby that I want a microscope for Valentine's Day. I know he already bought my Christmas present for me so that is the next holiday. Two months ago I thought people who owned microscopes for their fish were nuts, now it does not seem like that at all. It is hard to treat something when I really don't know what it is and the treatments vary widely in effectivness on different organisms.
IC: I thought continous flashing is what they needed to do to be considered sick with something and I too, learned I was wrong. They only "occasionally flashed and it was random at best. I knew when one jumped up out of the water a few times and I saw it and then my son and my husband witnessed it also that I really knew they had a parasite of some kind. Is there a koi club near you that you can call on for help? They may refer you to a member that lives near you who has experience and a microscope. You need to make a choice in your treatment. Medi koi WILL NOT fix the problem. You need to rid your fish and water of the "bug" that is making them sick and then the Medi Koi will help them heal.
How is the salt level now? Keep changing the water and then dose the PP. It's good you have the air and the peroxide on hand. I accidently overdosed and killed a few koi this summer but I wasn't prepared with the air and the peroxide and had thought my pond was twice it's size in gallons. I learned (again from Snapple) to get a water facet measurement on the hose I didn't have nearly as many gallons in my pond as I was told by my installer. Put the aeration in the water at the start of the dosing-don't wait for a problem to occur. My fish showed stress 4 hours later after I had thought they were already out of the "woods" so to speak. I was frightened when I saw them at 6 hours later-they were gasping for air at the waterfalls. I pulled them out and put them into fresh water that I had filled while they were in the containers. The first 5-10 koi made it but the ones that stayed in the medicated pond water the longest, died. Was my new water the same temperature-NO, was my new water treated for elements-yes, as I was filling the rubbermaid containers I poured it in generously. It wasn't the medicine that killed them but the amount of medicine I put in that killed them. I overdosed by 2 times and had not put in any extra air. That was my first lesson in ponding . . . it nearly killed me. Learn from my mistakes and lets fix those koi!!!
This website indicated that it is okay to use PP with salt at .1% (which is the level in my indoor pond):
http://www.sacramentokoi.com/SUBcategory.php?categoryKey=13&subCategoryKey=146&subCategoryName=Parasites%20and%20Treatment
Ugh...now I am so confused!!!
I think that's the correct advice. I've been doing some rummaging around the net today for koi treatments and what I've found relates to using PP in tandem with "salt treatment". I take salt "treatment" to mean something on the order of raising it over .1% which is a generally recommended maintainence level. To be absolutely safe do a prior water change first. I keep hydrogen peroxide handy in case of a screw up. It immedialtely neutralizes PP. Koi tolerate H2O2 just fine. Some people use 1pt of hydrogen peroxide per thousand gal to kill algae on a regular basis.
I have found that 1% salt statement in my past yahoo searches when I was using PP.
Well, I did not do anything with the water just yet. My hubby insists that my messing with the koi is causing them much too much stress. Lil Bit looked about the same - I don't know if I've noticed his smallness in comparison with the other three now more so that there are no "obviously something is wrong" fish in the pond anymore. I really pondered just pulling Lil Bit out of the pond and keeping him in a separate 5 gallon bucket with a bubbler, but he is healthy and frisky enough that I think I would really have to chase him with the net and that might cause more stress for the other fish than benefits.
I could not do anything with PP because it said in the instructions "use in early morning hours only". Since my koi are in artificial light, that definition is malleable, but I think I will wait until Saturday morning before I do anything. That way I can also be home for at least a few hours and observe the fish. It might be a good time to sit on the window ledge overlooking the baby koi pond and catch up on some reading.
I am going to do a partial water change tonight (today is hubby's last night teaching for the semester so since he won't be home he cannot accuse me of messing with the koi too much!) and will not re-add salt. My salt levels by the weekend should be .05 or less and all the dechlor should be out of the pond by then as well.
I did give the baby koi their Koi Kastle back last night - I took it out of the pond a few weeks ago after the first fish died, thinking that it was messing up circulation to the filter. That left them with only a fake water lily to hide under and right now I'm most interested in reducing stress for them.
Everyone ate fine this morning. On Saturday I go back to feeding the regular floating pellets so hopefully they will adjust to that - I think they are a bit used to the sinking pellets at this point.
Elizabeth
Don't worry about that early morning advise-just treat them at night and do it quickly because that little fish may get so sick that on Saturday the PP will put it over the edge anyway. BTW: messing with the water doesn't stress them out that much. Your fish are sick with something and your water changes are not killing them. It's in their bodies and they need treatment.