Shoe -- Strange as it may seem formulas of fertilizer differ in my neck of the woods. Wish I was privy to other types as I love to experiment. For example I can buy 10-10-10, although the price has more than doubled in my area. Vigoro used to be $9 for a forty lb bag and now it is $19. Wow! Lowes has ANOTHER BRAND BUT SAME FORMULA FOR $10. I can buy 6-6-6, 8-8-8 and the rest are NG as the nitrogen level is far to high except for the one I use for corn 15-30-15, however, 10-10-10 is doing just fine for me so I'm not complaining! Just find it strange that so many formulas available to others but not in my area? I've even checked private nurseries! And I live in farm country with Feed and Seed stores and horses and cattle?
POWDERED vs. PELLETIZED DOLOMITIC LIME.....
I hear that, Tplant. Both on the price increase and the unavailability of certain mixes. From what I understand on the price increase it is due to the oil industry; it takes quite a bit of petroleum to process the granular fertilizer. One dealer told me that the ones with high potassium (like 5-10-20, for example) would go up the highest as it takes so much more energy/effort to process the potassium. Fortunately for us a balanced fertilizer works perfectly well in the EB's, eh?
I'm guessing that certain formulas aren't available in all areas because it might be based on the naturally occurring nutrients in soil. In areas of the Country where phosphorus is in abundance they may not offer a fertilizer high in phosphorus because it is not needed there; same might be true with areas where land is high in potassium, etc. (Just musing here, like you, also wondering why.)
Everyone have a productive day!
Shoe
TPlant: Since when has Pembroke Pines been the country? You should come up here where I am, that is country, of course, those who know me in south Florida and have been here call it the boondocks, the backwoods or other names, and sad to say, it is getting too citified for me. There used to be 5 houses in our area (10 miles) now they put up 600 houses (sniffles). Not country anymore. Everyone out here at one time had 10 acres and it was zoned one house per 10 acres, not no more, it went from that to 5 acres to a acre and now to lots. (groan). With my acre, I got more land than any of the neighbors on my street and have been eyeballing this one 5 acre lot licking my chops. LOL
joy112854
Joy --- How long has it been since you've lived here? Pembroke Pines annexed parts of Davie and Hollywood and thus the dairy farms which are rapidly disappearing.
101 -- Dolomite is available at Home Depot in five lb. bags. To bad as I returned five of them yesterday as with Boca Bobs coco coir, I just don't need it at least for now!
Tplant...all I can get easily in Connecticut is dolomitic limestone. Every big box store carries it. I'm wondering if Florida labeling laws are why you don't see it.
In Florida, "Standard dolomitic liming material shall contain a minimum of 36% magnesium carbonate expressed as MgCO3."
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/acid4.html
That is a lot of MgCO3. I think the dolomitic limestone I see in CT is around 24%. Wonder if there are similiar products in Florida that have good enough levels of magnesium but just can't carry the dolomitic lime label.
My soil has, according to the state university, an "above optimum" level of MgCO3 so I look for low magnesium, non dolomitic limestone...i.e. calcitic limestone. I'm in your boat there. It is very difficult to find.
Went to one large nursery and the clerk said I had to talk to the head gardener as she had been urging the owners to carry it for some time. She knew our soils were over saturated with magnesium and took care of the problem in her garden at home. But few bother with soil tests. "Dolomitic limestone" has become a sign of quality in the public mind so stores carry it when, in certain areas of my state, growers would be better off with a lime with a low MGCO3 level.
Here our Lowes store always had it an it sold very well but they never replaced it ?
What is the MgCO3 level of the lime Lowe's does carry? I see limestone here which isn't labeled dolomitic limestone that but is what it is.
I suspect these stores buy what is cheapest and manufacturers just, for the non commerical ag trade, slap plain "limestone" on everything because of state laws which require, if "dolomitic" or "calcitic" is on the label, that the product must contain differing percentages of magnesium or calcium carbonate. But, in the small print, they do say what the composition is.
David Paul, refresh my memory (or correct me, please) but all lime contains calcium, dolomitic lime is the only one that offers magnesium (as well as calcium).
So, that being the case, any form of "lime" in itself will be good to use for EB's and containers as a source of calcium, with the exception of hydrated lime (due to it being so "hot" and quick release). The magnesium that dolomite offers may not be a necessary additive in EB's/containers since most people will be using balanced granular fertilizers which contain a small amount.
Sound feasible?
Shoe
Shoe....sounds right to me.
Read that dolomitic limestone became popular with home gardeners decades ago when Organic Gardening promoted it. Those with soils deficient in magnesium had, of course, spectacular results. Others saw no ill effects and it become the liming material to use.
TPlant: Problem is everyone in the world wants to live in Florida, so; Florida is getting so overcrowded, we kept the crowds and people out of here for so long; but, alas, they are all piling in here now, cause south Florida has no more land for sale. We won't have for very long either. I been dreaming about a log cabin on about 15 acres, not having to worry about neighbors and lots of room for gardening. Know what I mean? LOL I've lived in Davie and Hollywood. Davie is the closest I think you'd get to country in south Florida isn't it?
joy112854
Shoe and David_Paul and Tplant:
I've come up with something. I bought a small box of Miracle Gro for Tomatoes today to see the ingredients.
Miracle Gro is as follows:
18-18-21 and
magnesium .5%
copper .05%
iron .10%
manganese .05%
zinc .05%
(notice no calcium and missing lots of trace elements.)
My hydroponic plant food is:
10-8-22 and
calcium 5.0%
magnesium 1.0%
sulfer 2.0 %
boron .05%
copper .05%
iron .20%
manganese .10%
molybdenum .05%
zinc .05%
Maybe this is why I don't have any BER and I don't have to add any garden dolimite lime or anything like that.
Comments please!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BocaBob
Makes sense to me, Bob. I had an idea your hydro plant food contained calcium as it is really needed to build cell walls and protein within the plants. In-ground plants often times have access to calcium already existent in most soils.
Thanks for the breakdown on the two products. (I wonder if there is calcium in MG and for some reason it is not listed.)
Shoe
Bocabob -- Good point !! The high nitrogen amount should not be used on tomatos as you will have beautiful green growth but less tomatos. I use it only on my seedlings until they go into my EBs and then it is only the 10-10-10 and an occasional shot of Spray-n-Grow with the leaf sticker and fish emulsion. Eb people say to go no higher than 15 -15-15 on all fertilizer. I used to do that but found corn to be the only exception to this rule and use 15-30-15.
Normally I would be out there working today but the family went away for the week-end and the house was so quiet that I didn't waken until 10:30am and still sipping my coffee. By the way what is your day off as I don't want to drop by when you are not there. A little off subject but vital to a coffee lover like me?
I'm thankfully off on weekends. Mon-Fri I work 6am till 3pm Does your 10-10-10 have calcium in it?
Now I will have to check as I'm not using the dolomite?
It looks like I'm not having a BER problem or any calcium deficiency problem because there is a healthy portion of it in my fertilizer
I looked at my bag of 10-10-10 and don't see any calcium listed. It just may be that normal fertilizer like 10-10-10 is usually used in the ground and like Shoe said above, plants usualyy have acess to calcium in the ground. Now take Earthboxes with potting mix and you have to add dolomite lime maybe not to sweeten the mix but to give it the calcium the plants need. We need some verification of this. Let's hear from everyone who knows about this.
BocaBob
BocaBob...I thought the 10-10-10 I used in my EBs didn't have anything but N, P and K in it but wasn't sure. Can't speak to tomatoes as I only grow peppers in the EB but they do better with that straight fertilizer than peppers in the dirt. They reach their fruit load fast. Must be enough C and Mg in the potting mix alone.
My 10-10-10 has some trace elements in it but no C or Mg. Do you think the potting mix has both those in it naturally?
I will be planting additional tomato seedlings next month so what I will do is add one cup of dolomite to one coir mix EB and no lime in the other. This way I will have a control and everyone can see as they will still be counting snowflakes! LOL As far as container mix is concerned they only contain trace elements of minerals so we will see.
Found the spec sheet for ProMix BX. Calcitic and dolomitic limestone must take care of the calcium and magnesium and then there is enough N, P, K, Fe, Zn, Cu etc to get the seedling going (in my case, enough micronutrients to grow peppers with nothing else but a straight 10-10-10).
http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/Horticulture/TechnicalData/pdf/TD1-PRO-MIXBX-MYCORISE.pdf
Boca Bob: I used epsom salt this last Spring and Summer in my canna beds, just a tbsp per plant, as it makes the stalks thicker and healthier I heard. Didn't know you could use it for veggies til you mentioned it. I'm going to be getting the Miracle Grow Feeder attatchment for my hose in the back where I keep my veggies as I have the liquid Miracle grow tomato food, that should be enough for the veggies once a week? Or do you think that I should add some epsom salts to the mix also? If so how much? You don't think I should add any 10-10-10 to the grow bags at all? For now, all I'm going to be growing in them are eggplants, cauliflower, artichokes and cabbages.
joy112854
joy....Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) is great if your soil is, as many soils are, deficient in magnesium. If you have too much magnesium, as I do, more can block calcium uptake. If you have enough mg, a little more won't hurt but applying it is a waste of money (albeit a small expense).
Excess magnesium is not common across the country so its nothing everyone should be overly concerned over. Not enough is far more common. But parts of my state do have too much.
I'm putting gypsum in my soil this year to, in theory, make epsom salts and purge the soil of some magnesium. Don't know if it will work but the theory is the magnesium in the soil will replace the sulfur in gypsum (which is calcium sulfate), form magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts) and wash away (leaving the calcium I need).
David Paul: I've been using EBs for my veggies and now Boca Bob's grow bags and topsy turvys will be used also. That is why I don't really know much about the soil, except what I've been reading. I wanted flowers and loved canna lilies, so wanted to plant them all round the house this past Spring and Summer. To my amazement, one part of the yard was almost all clay, the other part almost all sand. My solution was to have my workers dig down about a foot remove about 2/3rd of the clay and add in about 2/3rd of rich black top soil then roto till it all together and plant my flowers all around. That done, I want to now bring my soil up to par in the beds for the cannas. I had added a little espom salt as it was suggested it would benefit the cannas, I have heard that gypsum was good; but, I have also heard that adding coconut coir to the bed itsself was a good idea also. Haven't quite figured out what I'm going to do yet. Have had thoughts of adding mushroom compost this next Spring, as that is when I'll be dividing up the tubers, they are going to need dividing then. My thoughts are to dig up all the plants, add the mushroom compost and then divide them and replant them. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
On another note; my boyfriend in South Florida, has been disgruntled with planting veggies as he has a serious problem with nematoids as that is a huge problem in the south where there is moist and rich soil. In investigating ways of solving that problem, I have gotten him some of the grow bags with coconut coir in them, I feel that the nematoids won't penetrate the plastic bags right? Then this summer, clear all vegetation out of the area where there is nematoids, layer real thick with compost, cover with solar plastic and leave it, that should fry all the nematoids and then follow up by planting marigolds for a while. After that crop rotation would be necessary to prevent them from coming back. Either that or he should stick with Boca Bob's grow bags and EBs.
joy112854
joy....Florida does pose challenges. Sounds like you really enriched that soil nicely. Clay soils do tend to have more magnesium and sandy ones less but one never knows (I'm an example of that as my sandy loam has too much mg):
http://books.google.com/books?id=UEGW-7C-bxYC&pg=PA541&lpg=PA541&dq=magnesium+clay+soils&source=web&ots=BkUyY2NSFK&sig=jjPypmsrPgAr87UguW_HNhzNQGg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result
I grew for two seasons in northern Palm Beach country. First year was great , second a total diaster.
I wish I had known about EBs and grow bags when I was in Florida. So much easier and little chance of the diaster I experienced. I use both here in CT to test crops before I put them in the dirt the next year. Saves wasting space in the dirt for something not well suited to this climate.
David Paul: Yes, my dad left me lots of great gardening books, he had a green thumb and with this membership I should be well on my way to having a successful garden; only problem is I can't grow things up here like they do in southern Florida, it gets chilly in NW Florida, like in Alabama. LOL I do travel to south Florida a lot though and will probably be alternating between my winters there and spring and summers here before long. My startings are doing really well inside so far, I'm going to try to grow the Imperial Star Artichoke, have 12 startings looking nice so far, will transport to south Florida for the winter and then bring them back up here in the Spring, hopefully, will have artichokes in about a year.
joy112854
Joy --For bulb info I suggest you go to the bulb forum as there are many pros there and
should be a big help. By the way don't you guys ever sleep??
TPlant: Sometimes, I like to read a lot and have been reading some gardening tip books to learn how to deal with diseases and build up the soil so that it will have the nutrients and minerals my plants need. LOL
joy112854
I tested my coco coir for Ph and fertilization. Both tests were made with two meters from different manufactures. They both came back with the same readings. PH was between 6.5 and 7 which is perfect and fertilizer was very low so as you said it will have to be added. As for minerals I would add a cup or two of milorganite to an EB as it is completely organic and has all the goodies unless you use Bob's fertilizer which is liquid and contains everything.
joy...fun isn't it? Not that anyone really needs to get into it in depth. Plants pretty much grow themselves as we can see by looking around. I guess its like those who tweak cars to get the highest performance or over-clock or do whatever they do to speed up computers. Getting a tomato or pepper plant to max out its genetic potential and then find how why it did is a challenge. An unsolvable one at its heart because there are so many variables. But even never being able to exactly pin the why down has benefits as there is the huge plant you did something right to.
TPlant: I give up what is milorganic in beginner gardner terms here? LOL Should we add gypsom and possibly epsom salts to the coconut coir and what about lime, yes or no?
joy112854
You will not need any of this if you use Boca Bobs fertilizer. As a matter of fact do as it will make everything much more simpler for anyone. Milorganite is an organic fertilizer but no where near the minerals that his contains. So I would not bother with it besides it is made from sewer sludge but of course purified.
TPlant: OK.
joy112854