Hello All,
I made an interesting discovery completely by accident while planting my EBs and eBuckets this weekend. I have been using powdered Dolomitic Limestone since I got my first EBs. This’ll be my 3rd growing season. I was constantly seeing Paw’s reference to pelletized dolomitic lime, but never found any. Well, I discovered a new feedstore over the weekend, and they had the pelletized, so I bought a 40 lb. bag. I was refilling the last two of my EBs with the powdered stuff, and decided to conduct a little experiment. I filled one 2/3 with potting mix and sprinkled two cups of the powdered dolomite. Then I watered. The water just sat there, looking back at me. I waited. And, I waited. And, I waited some more. Finally, when I got tired of waiting, I started swirling the water to make it go. Well, it was like swirling gooey cement! I had noticed when I dumped my EBs for cleaning that the dolomitic limestone in the mix had actually formed flat ROCKS, similar to slate. It was very hard. I kept wondering a) if a whole flat layer of this stuff was clogging up my EBs and not allowing the water to drain quickly/efficiently (root rot?), b) were my roots actually able to pierce through this layer of concrete to get to the water, and c) was the water able to permeate this layer of concrete to adequately to keep water in the mix?
Now, fast forward to the same scenario using the pelletized dolomitic limestone. The water percolated right through the limestone, no trouble whatsoever…
I invite those who understand soil and water movement to comment on the possible trouble this has been causing, unbeknownst to this and other newbie growers…(e.g., the yellowing leaves, a less than robust tomato vine, BER due to the stress of the plant trying to get water, etc…)
And I’m not using the powdered stuff anymore…..
Gymgirl
POWDERED vs. PELLETIZED DOLOMITIC LIME.....
This is a fascinating observation. Waiting to hear what experience others have had.
Karen
I'm afraid even with the pelletized dolomitic lime (proper lime) still does not prevent BER. May slow it down but not a thing I know of will prevent it? Eb people used to say to use two cups per EB but now they say one? Wish they'd make up their mind? I'm still using two with fresh mix but always PH test post season mix and usually have to add a cup or so to the old mix.
I had someone ask me why we had to use Dolomitic lime in the first place if we are using Jungle Growth, can you explain please and should we use the 1 cup now instead of two and do we replace this like we do our fertilizer everytime we change our boxes?
joy112854
Go to Lowes and buy a PH meter in the gardening section. Your PH should read a minium of 5.5 to 6.5 for for most veggies. Dolomite provides very important minerals that fertilizers don't seem to have enough of? I add mine every season and would not grow without it.
TPlant: From looking at your pics and my disaster this last season, I think I will use the 2 cups til you change up yourself. If it ain't broke, don't fix it right? LOL
joy112854
And, yesterday, I planted more greens and this time I mixed the two cups into the potting mix BEFORE I put that layer into the containers! This'll be my Science project!
Gymgirl: Keep us posted will ya? I can't plant til Spring; so, I'll let you and TPlant iron out any irregularities before I get to that point. LOL
joy112854
I suggest you all go to Lowes and buy a PH meter for around $8 or less. Too much lime can be worse than too little. All you do is stick it in the mix for about a minute and it will show you your PH.
Hold on Joy and gymgirl as I'm using bocabobs coir mix in some of my EBs and with this coco coir you don't need lime so it may be the answer to our lime problem and Bob also told me he does not get BER the scourge of all tomato growers. If that is factual we may be on to something as I will be planting more seedlings in January but in the coco coir mix so we shall make a good comparison. Imagine , no more BER? We'll see what happens!
Tplant
Just ordered the white bags from Bocobob. I just read on the other thread that someone asked about the coir in blocks. About where to get it. I got some awhile back for about 8lbs for $2.95 at a close out store. But
I didn't know how neat it was so only got two blocks when I went back for
more it was all sold out. Now I just see it in catalogues in little 6oz
blocks for about the same price. I have never seen it at Lowes or HD but they are always a couple of years behind when a new product or I new type of older product comes out. I sure wish some place around here sold it in blocks because the shipping charges are high. Planting in EBs won't start here for 3 or 4 monthes so you are going to be our expert
experimenter.
Annie
I guess so Annie as it is my season and it is time for me to change some of the EBs that I have with my one and only Jungle Growth which I have used and only used for years because it was recommended by the EB people but this may do as well or even better as It does not contain fertilizer as they also recommend but try to find a mix without fertilizer and also no need for dolomite lime which has also become hard to find and if I do it is extremely expensive. Four dollars for 40 lbs which is no longer available so I have to buy it in the organic section @5 lbs for $4. The blocks weigh 12 lbs and fill about one and a half EBs but I don't have to break my back lugging a fifty pound sack of JG and heavier if it gets wet so I see a tremendous advantage if it works which to me has already been proven by Bocabob as that is all he uses and I've seen his results. As I said I just bought three and will use them tomorrow.
A Canadian study of coca coir vs sawdust for growing tomatoes found "vigor, fruit set and maturity were similar in both coco coir and sawdust."
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/opp4542
There are reasons for using coca coir (the media lasts longer than peat, it is easier to handle than peat bales, if one believes peat bogs should not be mined, coir is the alternative) but I wouldn't count on eliminating BER as one of them until there are controlled studies. Lots of anecdotal evidence on the net of this and that benefit of coir. Very few studies yet. Vendors like coir because those who do not have the space to handle peat bales can carry coir and the industry is putting out a lot of free PR.
Here is a University of Florida study which found tomato "transplants grown with >50% coir exhibited reduced plant growth compared to peat-grown transplants, a response that may be associated with high N immobilization by microorganisms and high C:N ratio."
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13639594
David_Paul - I have been growing tomatoes for a few years recently and many years when I was younger and never had growth anything like this (using 100% coco coir as the growing medium) The plants are loaded with tomatoes, and for the 1st time ever, no BER. Just my results of course. More time will tell all.
BocaBob
I love using coir, you're offering a great product, Bob!
As for your lush plants, fantastic garden! Looking mighty fine! However, remember, the coir is simply the medium that the plants are growing in and not the nutrient source. If I remember correctly you are using a hydroponic fertilizer (3 times a day, wasn't it?) so that will attribute more to your plants health than just the use of coir.
Have you tried using coir w/granular fertilizer yet? I was hoping you could compare the two ways of feeding.
Happy Gardening to all!
Shoe
That test is starting this week beginning this week. Got to know how that works
Bob
I will be using the granular 10-10-10 Shoe as it is my old standby! Perhaps a liquid fertilizer like Miracle-Gro liquid for the bags once a week or even twice a week depending upon what results I get? I'm hoping to start the liquid today but waiting for weather to clear a little. To damp and cloudy for my arthritis! Boy am I appreciative for Bob's self watering system. I bought more parts to do my entire garden including my roses and not just my veggies. Now all I need is my health to finish the job....ONE DAY AT A TIME has become my new motto and if not today tomorrow will do!
Tplant, your health no doubt might slow you down but it sure doesn't completely stop ya! Nor does it dampen your initiative and high spirits! I think it's gonna take a lot to ever stop you from gardening! :>)
Wish I could join ya'll in these great experiments but I won't be doing any planters or EB's till next Spring. Meanwhile, could ya'll consider this...
...BER is caused by a lock-up of calcium in the plant or by a lack of calcium in the soil (especially in container growing). That's why the EB folks recommend using lime in their EB's, especially for tomatoes, more to offer calcium to the tomatoes rather than to bring the pH into a usable range.
With coir being fairly neutral pH wise and not needing to use lime to adjust the pH, it might be something to think about to keep using lime with the coir so the tomato plants will have calcium. Bob's liquid fertilizer most likely has a soluble calcium in it already (I use a liquid fert like Bob's for my perennials I grow/sell and it needs no added calcium) which is why he hasn't witnessed any BER.
Do you think a couple EB's with coir should have some calcium added as a safety precaution to inhibit BER (again, mainly for the tomatoes)? Adding lime might raise the pH too much but adding gypsom will offer calcium w/out changing the pH.
Tplant, you may be on the right track by adding MG every so often; surely that might offer some calcium, don't you think?
Just something to think about. Again, sure wish I could join you on these various growing projects.
Shoe
Horseshoe...both calcium and nitrogen utilization seem to be, when plants first start out, an issue with coir. Been reading hydroponic sites and they seem to confirm what is in the links I posted above:
"Growers using coir (coco peat) growing media should be aware of the CEC, potential for nitrogen draw down and calcium retention in the first few weeks of use and make regular use of leachate analysis and nutrient adjustments to counter such problems"
http://www.columbiapublications.com/tomatomagazine/december2006/greenhousenutrition.htm
What I get from the studies is coir, when first used, sops up calcium and nitrogren. The fix is simple: compensate for it by adding enough N & C. Don't think overdoses of C are likely and there is probably enough nitrogen in the EB recomended dose of fertilizer to take care of the N. Plan on trying coir myself as, among other reasons, I'm weary of manhandling compressed bales of Pro-Mix and would like a media that lasts longer.
My hydroponic nutrient formula has 5% calcium in it. The NPK is 10-8-22 Not being an expert on this stuff, would you say that is enough calcium to cover any draw down and is the nitrogen(10) also enough.
BocaBob
This is getting pretty technical for me...
I don't know BocaBob....my guess is all these studies are working on the margins. Tomatoes are such a huge crop that a gain or loss of 0.5% means millions of dollars. And the hydroponic people like to tweak things for the challenge. In my opinion, us regular folks won't notice a difference if there is one and the recomended N, P, K and C is just fine.
I just mentioned all this because I had read about coir and calcium and the notion coir might reduce or eliminate BER didn't seem likely.
Only time BER has been a problem for me was this year and it was all weather related. We had temps in the 90s for just over a week in early June. Then it dropped below 60 at night. Very strange and the tomatoes didn't like it. Plants took up water and calcium as they should but the calcium didn't get from the plant to the setting fruit (at least that is my theory). Problem passed as soon as the weather evened out.
"Plants took up water and calcium as they should but the calcium didn't get from the plant to the setting fruit (at least that is my theory)"
That's exactly right, David, and it's not theory but rather true. Too many studies have shown that there is oftentimes plenty of calcium in soil as well as in the plants themselves but it tends to get locked up within the plant, never making it to the fruit. Even Cornell and other ag universities haven't figured that one out yet. It certainly seems that everyone is in agreement though that weather/temperature extremes sure come into play re BER though.
Working with coir it seems that a calcium addition will be necessary at some point in time. The fact that "nitrogen draw down and calcium retention in the first few weeks of use" has been shown to happen may only be temporary, during early growth. I wonder if it balances out after the first few weeks? I wonder if coir can only absorb just so much of it and then it gives it back to the plants once it has reach its saturation point?
(and yep, Bob, maybe we are getting too technical, eh?)
Bob, I'd feel comfortable with your nutrient solution (5% C and the NPK ratio) as you have a garden that is living proof that it is working for you. Your foliage looks great, you don't seem to have an excessive amount of bugs (aphids in particular, which would be attracted to plants fed a high N diet) and you haven't witnessed any BER on your tomatoes (which look like they are soon to ripen!) I think I'd feel perfectly comfortable with your hydroponic solution.
Shoe
Wow Bob! From Shoe, that is a true compliment and should make you feel highly confident and also positive comments from Farmerdill is really terrific. I am really excited now and can't wait for my results! My only problem was today with my shoulders and holding and pouring a water can of liquid fertilizer. It takes so long for the WATER TO SPRINKLE OUT THAT MY SHOULDERS STRESS AND AS A RESULT --- PAIN! I will have to stay with my old stand by of 10-10-10 unless you have a better solution? This only means that I can not use the the bags properly. I'd rather stay with my EBs as it is easier for me. Meanwhile I will use my Miracle-Gro for roses which is sprayed from a bottle off my hose. That I can work with and I'm sure it will work either that or I'll use 10-10-10 by the teaspoonful for the gro- bags every other week or so. I think that would be best after they become seedlings as I planted direct seed today into the gro-bags.
Ok folks, I don't want to sound ignorant here; but what is BER? And if we use coconut coir in the EBs, we just omit the dolomite lime right? We still use the fertilizer right? We can still use it for 5 years, just replacing the fertilizer right? And if we use the grow bags filled with coconut coir, we can just use the Miracle Grow fertilizer once or twice a week, and we'll be fine right?
joy112854
Right! Bottom End Rot occours on the first few tomatos of the new batch where the tomato actually rots from the bottom up. It is due to calcium deficiencies, to much or not enough water and weather conditions. It happens to almost all of us no matter what we do but it is brief and does not cause much damage to my crops so don't worry about it and there is no cure. It doesn't always happen!
I'm starting a test with 10-10-10 in the grow bags this week. Tplant- based on the 2 cups you use in a EB, how much would you put in one 5 gallon grow bag? How much in a lay flat bag? Joy112854- The MG fertilizer once or twice a week should be fine. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm over feeding all my plants and wasting the fertilizer. I auto water and feed 3 times a day.
Shoe, thanks you've made me feel real good about the nutrients I am using!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BocaBob
It take two 12lb blocks to fill 3 EB's with extra left
Shoe - I forgot to mention that the nutrient mix I make also uses Epsom salt. I use 1 teaspoon of 10-8-22 per gallon of water and 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom salt per gallon every time I mix up a tank. Combined that is the complete formula.
BocaBob
Bob: Thanks, I figure if I copy you and Ted to the tee, I can't go wrong. LOL
joy112854
Bob, that little bit of Epsom probably won't hurt. I was thinking your 10-8-22 mix was a hydroponic solution (probably a Hydro-Gardens product?) and if so I wonder if there is already magnesium in it already. If it were me I'd just keep an eye on your solution tank and if you see any sludge or non-dissolved stuff on the bottom then cut back on the Epsoms.
Happy Gardening to All today!
Shoe
Shoe- Yes it is from Hydro-gardens and they say to use the epsom salt with the fertilizer. I'm at work right now so I can't see the label but I recall seeing Magnesium just under the calcium
Bob
Bob: So you use the 10-8-22 with epsom instead of the 10-10-10? I have 10-12-12 by Shultz but it is a time-release fertilizer; so had thought these thoughts:
1. Will use the 10-12-12 on my topsy turvys and the copy cat topsys that Garden Supply carries, then follow up with the Miracle grow liquid fertilizer weekly.
2. Then I will use 10-10-10 like TPlant uses in my EBs with the Jungle Grow and the Dolomite Lime he uses also.
3. Now, in the EB's I have coconut coir in I would use the 10-12-12 and forget the dolomite lime because of the coconut coir right?
4. Now in the coconut coir grow bags I would use the 10-12-12 and forget the dolomite lime and use the Miracle Grow liquid fertilizer daily right?
Do I have this correct now? LOL
joy112854
I would use the 10-10-10 in the EB's with either the Jungle growth or Coco Coir. You should have the same good results. I just would not put the Dolomite Lime in with the Coco Coir. In the grow bags I would just use the Miracle grow liquid once a week but water daily, not both fertilizers. Tplant, chime in here with your comments please.
BocaBob
You said it all Bob. JG requires dolomite -- coir does not at least for the first season but I will keep testing PH to make sure it holds between 5.5 to 6.5 as I'm pretty sure it will judgeing by your results. Have you ever added dolomite to your coir or is that all taken care of through your irrigation-fertilizer system?
Never used Jungle Growth but aren't all potting mixes pH balanced? I use Pro-Mix in my earthboxes and it has the proper pH. Don't put magnesium and calcium in the mix in the form of dolomitic limestone because I don't grow tomatoes in earthboxes.
Peppers do so well in an EB with nothing added to the potting mix but straight 10-10-10 that, when I pull them up in the fall, the entire box is filled with roots, roots which grow past the bottom screen right into the water reservoir.
This message was edited Nov 6, 2008 10:02 AM
I have never added any dolomite to my coir. Since my fert has 5% calcium in it ,I figure that is plenty for any palnts needs. But I'm no pro.
BocaBob
I guess it was another thread I posted the idea that coir may need calcium added (especially for tomatoes).
Remember, the addition of lime for EB's (recommended by the EB folks) is mainly to offer calcium to the plants and not so much for altering the pH in the medium. Coir is a fairly neutral pH and I think a few of us assume that the pH (or the coir?) will give the plants the needed calcium. And yes, David Paul, most potting mixes are pH balanced.
Those of you using Miracle Gro, or the like, may do just fine, as Bob does, not adding any source of calcium. Or as Tplant is doing use the 10-10-10 and augment it with MG from time to time and see if that helps with the calcium level.
Joy...
"4. Now in the coconut coir grow bags I would use the 10-12-12 and forget the dolomite lime and use the Miracle Grow liquid fertilizer daily right?"
I think you can save some moola and either just use the MG daily. OR you can use the 10-12-12 and use the MG once a week or so.
Shoe
Thanks everyone. I now know what to do this Spring.
joy112854