Scarlet O' Haras' Throat Colour

Hi again =)

I know some of us are searching for an SOH with a solid throat colour.....Anybody thought of hybridizing I.nil with a reddish throat with a Scarlet O'Hara that has a white throat? I was reading on Dr. Imai's Segregating Data on the Flower Colour of Pharbitis Nil (http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/914731/), and there was a design experiment on white flowers.

There are 3 types of white blooming jmgs: those with a w1 allele, w2 allele and w3 allele. w1 and w2 look similar and w3 have white seed coats, green stems and white blooms.
Now if you cross white-2 (white colour tube) WITH white-1 (white colour tube), you will get white blooms sporting a white colour tube.
Crossing white-2 (coloured tube) WITH white-1(white coloured tube), you will get white blooms sporting a coloured tube.


So, what does white flowers have anything to do with SOH?
When you cross an mg bearing white flowers with a coloured one, white bloom colour is ALWAYS recessive. Something to think about:SOH that produced white flowers??????!!! http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/692980/ (maybe, maybe not). The first offsprings (F1) of white bloom x coloured bloom are always 3:1 ratio (coloured:white), with white being recessive.

Some educational guesses on why most SOH have white throats...

1. The red colouring of the throat is RECESSIVE to the white colouring of the throat. (Ron's statement, not mine)

2. Line of SOH being commercialized and passed around carried "white throat" colouring and not the one with the coloured tubing
This hypothesis is different from Ron's. Basically, not a question of dominant/recessive inheritance, but a mass production of those carrying for white tubes.
Why is this a possibility? because most if not all of those who grow a bunch of SOH seeds turned up almost always white.
Problems: Too biased because the population under question is:
- Dave's Garden: just my observations from pictures being uploaded; very limited depth
- These pictures might NOT be Ipomoea nil, but purpurea, or something else
- Ambiguity and Subjectivity of colour description

3. White coloured throats can be mistaken for COMPLETELY WHITE THROATS. There are genes that dilute this colouring, so your white throat might actually be a coloured one but diluted.

3. Recessive gone dominant
Most unlikely hypothesis in my opinion. I still listed this because there is still a possibility but very little. It takes years for this shift, may be possible because I. nil have been cultivated for years.

LIMITATIONS: got most of my info from a 1930 publication lol. We need to do more digging!

Some morning glories that could be considered for crossing with SOH to get coloured throats:
Oreheme http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/161677/
Akatsuki no Hikari http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/103751/
These ones will most likely give you a higher yield of "red"- coloured blooms

Or any I.nil with a coloured throat. Remember: red-coloured blooms are recessive to the blues and magentas and purples.

Eliz

Eliz....

evr - I think it is great that you are very interested in theory...there is certainly a very valid place for it...

Luther Burbank (one of my horticultural hero's) knew theory,but his best was the result of experience coupled with alot of intuition...

Regarding the statement here:

"Something to think about:SOH that produced white flowers??????!!!"

Yes,of course it is possible...but after more than several decades of growing Morning Glories I can see that the plant posted here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3208861
is actually not an Ipomoea nil at all,but Ipomoea tricolor "Pearly Gates"...


You stated:

"1. The red colouring of the throat is RECESSIVE to the white colouring of the throat. (Ron's statement, not mine)"

Hmmm...I would say that in point of FACT that is YOUR statement and definitely NOT mine...

I have recommended selecting the most solid throats and breeding them to others with solid throats...

The selection process as instituted in home gardens and in commercial production facilities may result in a higher percentage of white throats that is not necessarily primarily related to white throats as recessive or dominants,but related to other reproductive factors that are co-existent with solid or white throats...therefore without intentionally selecting for a solid tube (not 'throat'),the white tube may have a natural selective advantage over the solid tube...there are many possibilities...

Please continue to share from your current perspective and after you have personally grown them for several decades...


You stated:

"2. Line of SOH being commercialized and passed around carried "white throat" colouring and not the one with the coloured tubing
This hypothesis is different from Ron's. Basically, not a question of dominant/recessive inheritance, but a mass production of those carrying for white tubes."

No,this is not different from Ron's...as I have stated that the white tubes in the SOH are at least in some cases the Ipomoea nil
"Wine 'N'Roses"
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/55120/

You stated:

"Problems: Too biased because the population under question is:
- Dave's Garden: just my observations from pictures being uploaded; very limited depth"

Please clarify exactly what you are referring to as "very limited depth"...

If I have not disagreed with some statements,generally it means that I agree,although there may be some exceptions in relation to the 'Always' factor...( never ! say never ! )...because this is in relation to the genes 'known' to the studies and / or to science...not all of the existent genes are known...and the fact that the mere presence of Dominants and recessives is definitely modulated by the:

1) modifier genes and the related phenomenon of incomplete expression,incomplete Dominance and incomplete recessiveness...

2) the thousands of enzymes that co-ordinate the action of genes and can in fact turn genes on or off...enable genes to work at all or not...the action of the multiple thousands of enzymes involved is why simply knowing the basic genome is grossly insufficient to getting genes to work together relative to e.g., genetic splicing...

3) bridging and exchange of genes between different chromosomes...and the degree to which this may or may not occur...

4) the degree of genetic diversity of any and all of the plants in any study group...e.g., wild plants with a high degree of genetic diversity may respond differently than a highly inbred line with very narrow genetic diversity...



I fully appreciate your interest and using traditional theory makes the most sense for most people...and I surely recommend it...


I've done enough of my own private research to throw most traditional 'theory' out the window...as per my own endeavors..


Good luck (!)


Ron


P.S. - Somewhat like making novel music...you have to learn all the rules 1st,before you can learn to 'properly' break the rules...




This message was edited Oct 19, 2008 10:20 PM

luvsgrtdanes - heheh I myself cannot tell between a mere "pink" and "magenta". Dilution of colours are very hard to tell, so sorry to say we cannot pin point if they are actually diluted or not =/

Ron - Thank you for all the clarifications especially the "white" ROH (Pearly Gates) that I've mentioned. I don't mean to lead some people to the wrong way.

1. The red colouring of the throat is RECESSIVE to the white colouring of the throat. (Ron's statement, not mine)"
I was searching up "red" mgs on the forum and came to one with a solid coloured SOH topic in it. Can't seem to find it anymore. I think somebody said that you said that it was that lol. (Okay I should not have mentioned your name, sorry if I've offended you). - That the ones without the solid red tube colour should not be placed near any other I. nils to prevent crossbreeding? Or I might have interpreted this differently.

"Problems: Too biased because the population under question is: - Dave's Garden: just my observations from pictures being uploaded; very limited depth"
1. Biased because most of my observations on SOH are only based on DG's photo database, not a random selection of a population.
2. There are too many factors affecting the colour of the flowers; shades and contrast of the photo in relation to the camera being used, if the camera used flash and other functions, or if people altered the colour via software programs.
3. As mentioned, the issue of the picture of a plant being placed in under the wrong name "ex: Candy pink photo placed in SOH DG's plant base".

Just like human beings and other living things, plants are very diverse. I completely agree with you Ron in your remarks with regards to modifiers, enzymatic pathways and other factors that may affect physiological attributes. I didn't mean to oversimplify scientific concepts (I remembered learning simplistic energy levels and the number of valence electrons in an atom, etc. in highschool chemistry BUT was disappointed to learn in University that what I've learned in highschool is technically not true, but basics are the basics right?)

I want to emphasize that what I write are mostly hypothethical statements, not meant to be a resource used as if they are theories. This is not by all means a formalized scientific research lol. Think of this as more of brainstorming and perhaps will get others to spark new ideas. I don't mean to make people think that my way or what I say is right, just something to think about if one is going to hybridize mgs.....

I myself want to hybridize some mgs, I think it would be good to know which attribute express itself when hybridized with another mg. just want to see other people's input on such subjects because I'm new to them.

Thank you for the input and comments on this thread, and am hoping to hear more from you guys. =)

PS: Ron, what kind of research did you do with regards to traditional theory?

I am finding your research fascinating, Eliz. Though in all honesty, I don't try to create any vines/blooms using the research. The reason being is that I have yet to get a bloom from a cross that would turn out the way I expected it to. Ron is probably on-target by saying that there are many factors that contribute to a vine and it's bloom colors and patterns. These MGs are such wild cards when it comes to cross fertilization that I gave up even trying to predict any traits in particular. These vines have a mind and a will of their own ...

Which is why I am so drawn to this particular plant family. I don't know of any other plant that can create such fascinating off-spring ...

well, I'm not going to go specific specific (like right-on the dot colour, with the shape, size, leaf form etc). because there are alot of factors to consider. Just curious what the offsprings will turn out to I guess =)

Eliz - You mentioned:

"That the ones without the solid red tube colour should not be placed near any other I. nils to prevent crossbreeding? Or I might have interpreted this differently."

Yes,Like Breeds Like...regardless of any thought of Dominants or Recessives...

"1. Biased because most of my observations on SOH are only based on DG's photo database, not a random selection of a population.
Yes,and there is certainly alot of different potential populations to choose from...think about it...

"2. There are too many factors affecting the colour of the flowers; shades and contrast of the photo in relation to the camera being used, if the camera used flash and other functions, or if people altered the colour via software programs."

The photos of the Scarlett O'Hara (note spelling with 2 tt's) from my stock are accurate and have not been altered with any special software etc,...

"but basics are the basics right?)"

Yes,that is how most people learn...

"Think of this as more of brainstorming and perhaps will get others to spark new ideas"

Good Stuff...(!)


"I myself want to hybridize some mgs, I think it would be good to know which attribute express itself when hybridized with another mg. just want to see other people's input on such subjects because I'm new to them."

Plants with a very restricted genepool will give less variable results than plants with a diverse genepool...


You very emphatically declared the following:

"White is ALWAYS recessive..."


How would you work the Wd (White Dominant) gene into your white is ALWAYS recessive equation...


http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/species/genes.html
Wd White-dominant, Yuusei-hakushoku
Inhibiting colored flower, results in white flower.


"Ron, what kind of research did you do with regards to traditional theory?"


Learning about it's limitations...


TTY,...


Ron


P.S. - The Exception that Proves the Rule...

For Every Great Truth the Opposite is True
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/n/niels_bohr.html