My ph is a constant 8.5-9 and is from well water. I don't plant to put the fish back into the pond until I empty it again and re-clean it with a hose down, due to all the mud and grim and mulch that is now in the bottom of it. I drained 3/4 of it today and plan to finish the job tomorrow. I am considering removing all the stone out of the very bottom of the pond where the fish hang out the most just to make it easier to clean in the future. Does anyone know how difficult it would be to add bottom drains to a pond after the fact???
Do I have bad luck or is this normal???
Linda,
I don't know how difficult it would be to add a bottom drain after the fact, but I do know that everything I have read indicates that a lot of rock at the bottom of a pond is a breeding ground for bacteria and disease. This is also not taking into account how difficult it makes it to clean out the bottom of the pond. I know you had your pond professionally done, but I have also seen on many of the gardening shows when they put in ponds, where a lot of them will add a layer of rock to the pond bottom - this is not good. It is just a breeding ground for problems.
We have the coping rocks around our pond with plants growing over them and then we try to keep the bottom as free of rock as possible. There is the occasional pea gravel or egg rock that the koi pull out of the plants, but that also gets cleaned up when we cut everything back and do a a good vacuum before shutting the pond down in the Fall. Don't want the fish spending the winter in all of that gunk.
Carolyn
You can get retrofit bottom drains which are much easier to install after the pond is built - but based on all reports I've seen, they don't work as well. It's still better than nothing though. I agree with your thought of removing the rock off the bottom!
mothermole - this is your opportunity to get the rock off the bottom. Please give it serious thought. You won't regret it. Are you getting things dried out OK?
Yes-basement is being fan tried by the remediation company. I lost four more fish-my air stone died overnight. This is the second one (same brand) I have had in 4 months. I will never buy an aquascape aerator again. I bought a heavy duty outdoor pond type today and it is heavy duty air. I can aerate multiple containers and then some.
The pond is nearly empty. And yes, I plan to remove the stone from the deepest center area. I recvd my water measurement device this afternoon. I want to have an accurate measure of the gallons in my entire system so that I don't over or under estimate medications and bacteria and such. Tomorrow I will finish emptying the pond, get the stone out and tidy it up one last time with a rinsing and then I will refill and treat with appropriate chemicals for chlorine and add new bacteria in and the salt. Hopefully by the next day I can put the healthiest fish into the pond.
BTW: I did all the PP treatments as stated in koivet.com and it was my understanding that frogs and fingerling fish and snails would be dead after treatment. Well, they are all alive (which makes me happy but I wonder if something didn't work right). The last treatment the purple color lasted a whole 10 hours in the pond (which means it was effective in killing fungus and parasites). This is what was indicated for the third and final treatment. Maybe I should post this on koivet.com
Four years ago I used a formalin treatment to kill a fungus ( saprolegnia) . It was supposed to also kill all invertebrates ie. pond snails. It did greatly reduce the number, but by the end of the season they were nearly back at the normal population. Some critters are just a little more sturdy than others. I'm not surprised that you have survivors. But, I'm also confident that you've got a handle on the bad bacteria and parasites with the PP. Although Aquascape does make a good natural algae and sludge treatment product, I absolutely don't agree with their advice that a pond needs rocks. Excess rocks are trouble. No rock at all on the bottom makes for a healthier pond.
Snapple: Good call on the flow meter. According to measurements I should have approx. 4500-5000 gallons. I don't even have half that amount . . .? Are those flow meters ever incorrect? The lack of enough water would definitely make sense to why the fish were getting sick (overcrowding). I am going to try to test that flow meter out a little more tomorrow to see if I can check for errors by measuring something that I already know the size of. My pond has a very wide shelf at the top and makes a typical measurement hard to do. I notice a lot of new little baby frogs in the pond that weren't there 2 weeks ago. I did not see any new fish but a lot of creepy crawlies that resemble tiny (really tiny-size of a dime or smaller) shrimps. Possibly look like a fish louse but wouldn't that be dead with my PP treatment? I removed as much of the rocks/pebbles off the very center of the pond (where the fish hide and sleep) as my back would let me. It was pretty grimy under there. A lot of left over "stuff" (for lack of a better word . . .) from the organic breakdown with the PP. I saw bugs in that rock bed that I have never seen before and they were in some type of a coccooning stage/dormant stage. Now they are in another location in my garden with the rocks. . . .
Has anyone noticed that it seems that we have the most problems with our fish the first year after we have redone our ponds. Even though we have some experence with fish and ponds. I know I have and mothermole has had just unbelivable amount of trouble. I have gold fish, started my redo pond with 20 fish now I have 3 left, think they are going to make it. Am not going to get any new ones until next year. Mothermole does have Koi I know they are different, I had some at first just didn't have big enough pond for them. Mmole as if you didn't have enough problems, but then to have FLOODING TOO, I really feel for you. I am also glad you got rid of your rock bottom,can't be anything but more problems. Hope you will be able to get your fish back in your poud tomorrow. Katherine
By the way I did get the brim out, there were 10 of them, that my son did put in the pond. He didn't realize how much trouble he was causing.
As to the flow meters I've not had issues with accuracy. However, this is too important to trust completely if you suspect a possible discrepancy, especially one that large. Whatever you can do to verify I would consider crucial, especially when it comes to adding medication. I verified mine by metering the amount of water I drained from a pond cleaning. I use a submersible pump that I lower to the lowest part of the pond. It's has an 1800 gal per hour rate. After calculating for the lift/head it was pumping at 1600 gallons per hr. It took a little over 1-1/2 hr to drain the pond. Hence a 2500 gal pond. I also made a mental note of approximately where the water level was at 100 gal out, 200 gal out etc. Now I just eyeball about how much water I need to add, set the flow meter for that and it matches.
You have increased your pond water volume by the amount of rock removed too, so don't forget that adjustment. Getting the rock out of mine made a big change in additional water volume.
From what you described coming from the bottom rock I believe you have found the source of the parasite and disease problem.
KP's onto something about having problems after a re-do. I thinks that's true. A lot of "stuff" gets stirred up and it's not all beneficial.
After a lot of thinking, I think I will do the salt calculation to figure out the gallons. It was posted quite a while back on this thread. Whoever posted it-I thank you. Its a gorgeous day here in Northern Illinois. At least I will enjoy the weather while I work on the pond!
Linda
I never did an additional water calculation on the pond but did add the fish into the pond after one last antibotic treatment and one last look at the ulcers and treatment of the ulcers that were new or not healing. One fish actually was getting ulcers in the holding tank so that helped me to make the decision to return them to the pond. One fish was acting very odd and off since the antibotics dip and I was sure it would die but it seems to be coming around and is hanging with the school now. It's not eating though and hardly swims as much as it just seems to "suspend" in the pond. I suspect it will die but I cant think of anything more I can do for it except tube it with medicated food (I read about it in the Koi vet medical treatments book) but that involves sedation and hose sticking in the stomach and pumping in medicated food. I'm a littler worn out in the medical department. I hope that this fish comes around and is able to help itself and start to eat. I really love animals and hate to see any suffer.
Lets hope things get stabilized. There's only a few weeks left to condition them for winter. Have you got your high carb/ wheat germ/ lower protein food handy? Volume wise any idea how much rock you took out?
When I was in grade / high school, I became very interested in tropical fish. I had many aquariums, building into breeding them, eventually brackish and salt water tanks.
Koi ponding is new to me, but a fish tank is a fish "tank," no?
While more temperamental than fresh water aquariums, they are similar to salt water in that the water has to go through nitrate cycles a couple of times to season it for adding fish. In Salt Water tanks, that means a couple cheap damsel fish to, unfortunately, "sacrifice to the process."
For the pond, I used "Rescued Feeders," as I call them, to season the water. Bought 50 and hoped for the best.
The first couple weeks I would lose maybe one or two every other day or so, but since then none have perished [insert wood knocking here!] I only add 2 or 3 at a time and now the pond has 8 Koi.
Cost of rescued feeders, $10.00 for all 50.
Here is Butters surrounded by most of the surviving feeder rescues .... which, as you can see is probably 35 or more. The three other orange / yellow? koi are also mixed in there.
When those sacrifice feeders start to multiply I hope you have catch strategy. I started with 4 comets, which in about three years or so multiplied to over 100. They spawn 4 to 5 times a season. A new hatch can spawn the same year. It took me two years to get them out of the pond. I had to drain, sein and finally poison with a chemical that was harmless to koi but deadly to comets. I will never go through that again. If I were to start again I would use shubunkins or 4" pet store koi. Reproduction is much more managable.
I know!! I remember I had tons of goldfish, but had salt water fish that would feed on them.
I think I can give them back to the fish store. Plus, I need to make room for more koi.
I am already asking everyone if they have a fish bowl!
Which, I hear, in some parts are illegal.
Maybe it's time to set up a salt water tank again. :-)
WNY you have my very best wishes. Comets do make good fertilizer.
I agree with Snapple, You will shortly be over run with godfish. The pond will have too high of a fish load and you will have major problems. Get those goldfish outta there.
Another solution to goldfish/comet population control is golden orfes. I got three last year and it has helped tremendously. Three years ago, I started with 12 fish (comets and shubunkins). Today I have about 25. Most of the increase occurred prior to my getting the orfes. The last two seasons have seen almost no increase to my population.
What exactly do the orfes do that keeps the comet population in check? Do they eat them?
Yes - they feed on eggs and small fry, but get along great with the other (non-fry) fish. They get large - about 18+ inches so you need to have plenty of room for them or they will jump out of the pond. They are active, fast and social - most sites recommend a school of at least 3 at all times. They do not do well in hot conditions and are sometimes hard to find. I got mine through aquamart.
SongsofJoy, I mightly appreciate the education. They are not a fish that is ever mentioned or offered in the pond stores here. Had I known...............
I have to admit I love the rich orange color of the goldfish. I'm not ready to give up on the koi yet though . . . good news, the white one is still alive and swimming and I think eating-hard to tell when my fish are all shy again about coming near me.
My fish are still doing better and better each day-all are eating and swimming and a few braver ones are coming closer to the edge when I feed them. I can see the ulcers that weren't healing in the hospital tank are now healing. I hope there is enough time for them to heal up before winter arrives. My Japanese Koi are still the friskiest and hardiest of the lot. The American koi seem subdued compared to the Asia Koi.
Oh, no-one fish is isolating and jumped out of the water into the air a few times. The fish doesn't have any ulcers or anything but something is wrong. I am so tired from all this. Any suggestions?
It sounds like you still may be dealing with a parasite problem if he's jumping and isolating. (At least it's not all of them, so you may be getting a handle on thing!)
If you have any potassium permaganate left, I'd attempt to catch him and dip him.
There are also anti-parasitic feeds, that can take care on internal parasites that you may want to try.
Add a bit of salt to the water, especially if you've had rain.
I think it is fish lice-I called the vet and asked for "program" flea and tick medicine to treat pond. I see small flecks on a few fish.
Dimilin works great! I am going to treat my pond this week, I do it 3 x per year.
:)
Mothermole I was thinking about all the problems you have had with different parasites. I was wondering if you get frogs in your pond from maybe a neighbors pond or a natural body of water in your area. I have a friend that had some trouble awhile ago and he found out frogs were introducing different parasites from a natural pond nearby. He had to put up a wall around his pond to keep them from getting in. After he cleaned his pond up and built the wall he hasn't had a problem since.
That's interesting about Dimilin and fish lice. I read that the eggs need three weeks of watertemps at 86 ( or greater I guess) to hatch. We don't get that up here. So if you do get an infected fish from a supplier, then it sounds like one pond treatment would do it?
No .... one treatment is not the key to success with Dimilin and Anchor Worms.
From the way I understand it, Dimilin only kills the grown Anchor Worms but not the eggs, which can take 14 days to hatch.
The second treatment (14 days later) is for all the now hatching eggs that the original worms laid into the water before you noticed you had Anchor Worms.
You have to break the cycle of adults and egg laying to rid the pond of the parasite.
If you skip the second treatment, chances are you will find you are re-infested in a month.
Even if the eggs need 86 degree water for three weeks to hatch? I don't have this lucliky, but I'm always on the lookout for information.
I can't say I saw anything about temperature and Dimilin treatment. I wondered that very same question, however.
Not a mention of temp. at all on the container label.
Now I am nervously looking for lice, too .... :- .... not that I see anything.
I do a re-treatment 5 days after the first.....and then "if" I have any left, I do a 3rd treatment (but usually not neccessary) I make sure it goes through all the filtration, etc, but DO turn off the UV lights.
How's it going mm?
Sorry-I haven't been online. I visited another Davesgarden person up in Wisconsin to see her beautiful garden art (and learn the art of casting cement garden feature-I am thinking of making a spitter . . .) and clumsy me trip on my own foot and sprained my ankle. Everything is taking a little bit longer for me to do and I haven't had time for the computer.
I treated with dimilin for the first time yesterday. None of the fish look terribly sick but that one is still jumping a bit as of yesterday. It's raining today and I don't plan to hobble outside near the pond with my ankle otherwise I might end up falling in the pond! LOL! They definitely have the black specks-do I need to haul them all out again and take the worms out of the fish (please say no . . .).
Qwert: Yes, I live on a naturally occurring lake (it's in front of my home across the street about 1.5 acres away). I did have herons and a few ducks earlier this summer and I am guessing some of the frogs in my pond are from there as well. I added tadpoles into my pond (4) and I had more than 4 frogs in their two weeks ago. However, I don't see more than one this past week since I reintroduced the fish to the pond. Do you think they went on holiday to Florida for the winter?
MM....definitely do NOT attempt to take anything off your fish! You'll have more than just your ankle wrapped if you attempt such a feat (no pun intended!)
If you are using the proper amount of dimilin, and do a follow-up treatment, you should be fine.
A week after the final treatment, I would up your salt level just a bit, before you go into fall weather.
I would also add some beneficial bacteria before the fish settle in for the winter, with all of the leaves in the bottom of the pond.
As the weather cools (mainly the water temps) you will want to decrease their food (especially if you are using a high protein food)
Take care of yourself and your ankle~ :)
the "other" MM
MM all my frogs are missing as well they either went to my neighbors pond or back to a nearby creek. Our frogs migrate between mine and 2 of my neighbors ponds every time it rains. Sorry about your ankle.
I agree with Mary!
I think I read somewhere that it might take a while for the remains of the worms to fall off the fish. I wouldn't try to dig it out. With my luck, that would probably create a bigger problem.
I also added treatments of PimaFix and MelaFix, just in case some bacteria or fungus wanted to try and set in. I love the way it smells, to boot!
I read that these do not have bad reactions with the Dimilin ..... This is how I dosed:
Sunday Dimilin .... Following Sunday PimaFix and MelaFix ..... the Next Sunday Dimilin again, as directed.
So, hows the weather in NY Willie? It's starting to get chilly around here . . .