Unfortunately something is going on in my pond yet again-three fish with tiny ulcers. All water levels are perfect and I regularly check them and they stay the same. After the big scare from the heron they have all been hiding that I barely get to see them. I was lucky to even see the ulcers this time.
I did a big water change and put the salt at 3.5 and after tomorrow will catch all the fish and inspect them and treat the sores. Does it ever get any better? My whole experience with koi has been difficult all summer. It's really putting me off my beautiful pond. How is it that I have a friend who bought a home with an existing pond with koi and never read anything about their care and management and barely looks at her fish and nothing ever affects them or their health??? No herons and no illness-am I just incredibly unlucky?
Do I have bad luck or is this normal???
MM, I have had a challenge or two but nothing like you have faced. Have to confess that I am one of those that doesn't test the water or do much at all except to make sure that the water level stays where it should be. Going to choose to beleive that you got all of the problems out of the way the first year and will have smooth sailing from this point forward!
Oh, no!!! I can't believe all the troubles you have had.
Is it possible something contagious was still in the pond and gave whatever it was to the new fish? I've heard of frogs and goldfish being able to carry koi disease.
I wish I had answers for you... hope you figure it out soon.
Mothermole.... I was just looking on goldfishconnection.com and saw they have a pond treatment called Aqua MedZyme LIQUID. It is specifically for ulcers and clearing your pond of the bacteria.
I've heard really good things about this sight and products. Might check out some of their medicated foods too....
Mothermole... I can't believe you are still having problems... But then my problems aren't over either I only have the little comet and 1 more of my fish, the rest have all died. Now my sons have put 10 brim in the pond..I could just about kill them... I have a new post "STRANGE FISH IN MY POND". I sure wish we could have a little luck we've had enough problems.. Katherine
MM, drain half your pond if possible, refill with clean water (add de-chlor) Add a heavy salt content, feed antibiotic feed. Usually ulcers are caused by poor water conditions, even though you can't see anything. If the fish are strong, you may need to do an anti-parasitic, as the parasites can puncture the fish skin and cause ulcerations.
IF you can catch them, you can swab the ulcer with a little potassium permaganate solution (make sure it ONLY goes on the wound) and then apply bio-bandage (it's a thick gel that keeps the wound clean and contains an antibiotic.
The main thing....Make sure your water is healthy!
:)
My water is great but I finally saw something to think parasites. One of my fish was flashing and shuddering. It reminded me of my dog trying to shake water out of her fur. Bingo! Now I had some idea what was going on. So I started working on getting the fish out to treat them (went to a local garden center and they are closing their pond department-yipee-60-90% off-spent $300. 00 -but that's another story). So far caught 4 and have the pond half way drained. I treated a few smaller ulcers with topical and are now in quaranteen tank with prazipro-plus for flukes. I added aeration. Tomorrow will treat the secondary infection with antibotic soak. On a brighter note, a fish I thought was eaten almost a month ago has amazingly turned up alive. All my fish have been hiding so long I never saw them. So my Tancho that was so friendly and almost to the point of eating out of my hand is alive but obviously not well. I haven't caught it yet and haven't seen any ulcers but who knows what lurks beneath the fish especially as they have been hiding so long. I had to remove a TON of plants out of the pond to see the fish. I'm so glad I invested in some end of season kiddie pools-they are great for holding plants when you have to salt. This pond has been such a source or both pain and pleasure this summer. Even tonight as I tried with my husband to catch this little buggers we were laughing about how important it was for our pond builder to build all these hiding places for the fish. The fish were hiding in these places and getting away from our attempts to catch them. Why I would think a heron could easily catch them is beyond me.
My poor husband slipped on a rock, broke his three day old croc's and seriously bruised his ankle. He winced a little but that was it and stayed in the pond helping me. When he came out of the water an hour later his ankle was huge with major swelling. He had a serious bruise as well. The things you do for love (he had the pond built for me-it's mine). I owe him bigtime! He also told me to buy the microscope asap so that we can get to the bottom of our problems in the pond (it was going to be my birthday present in November).
*** Does anyone know if I need to treat my pond for flukes while the fish are out of it being treated separately in my hospital tank? ***
I look forward to your answers about treating the pond for flukes with the fish out of pond. I have to go to sleep because tomorrow I have a big day draining the pond, catching fish and treating everyone.
Good luck. My new fancies have flukes too. I now know what "flashing" looks like. Luckily they are in an aquarium so things are much easier to handle.
I would think you need to treat the water and fish too. Major water change, salt and Prazi. Then antibiotic food too, like Mary mentioned.
Yes, the water needs to be treated...otherwise you put your fish back into a bath of hungry parasites when you add them back to your pond!
You will need to attempt to determine what parasites they may have.
Potassium Permaganate will kill off everything (bacteria, parasites, fungus, etc) but you must use it with extreme caution. However, if your fish are no longer in your pond and are in a quarantine tank, you can breath a little easier when using it. If the fish are put back in the pond, use it with extreme caution, but it's still probably the best overall treatment.
Praziquantal is excellent, and not as hazardous as a good many others. It usually does not require water changes afterward, and does not change the color of the water. Ebay is the cheapest place I've found to buy it. The fish can be in the water when treating (it will also get rid of the parasites on the fish skin) It's uses mainly for flukes, and will also deworm any internal fish worms.
Dimilin and Anchors Away will treat both fish lice and anchor worms. They come out in full force when the water gets warmer during the summer. You MUST treat the whole pond twice, as their is a re-hatch of the water-born eggs, a few days after you kill off the adults. If you don't do the 2nd treatment, you will just start from scratch over and over.
:)
Thanks Merry Mary and Evesta. I did find something to laugh and enjoy (finally)- I got BABIES! I have the pond drained down to about 1/5 nearly died when I felt something by my legs. I looked down and saw two clear fish about 1 inch long in the algae (I was cleaning it-might as well do it all while I'm in there. . .). So I now had a different situation in the pond. I caught all the rest of the fish early this morning when the pond was chillier and they were slower. Now that I know I have the babies I have to treat the pond as well and am planning to pro-form C it . So then I collected one of my two known froggies. I don't want the little smiley guys dying over all this! The frogs are a little bit of a different approach with regards to catching them. So I spoke with the product manager at Pro-form -C about the babies and it is safe to do but I worry about the estimated gallons in the pond. I also have to get the salt level down-it's taking a long time.
Anyway, that's my update. I didn't plan to spend the whole day outside with the pond, the fish and the frogs. So much for being excited about my 6 year old finally being able to go to school all day this year. The koi have become the ball and chain now! LOL!
BTW: I love the idea of babies!!!! :)
MM is a fish grandma!! YAAY! Finally some positive news.
Okay, I saw a larger baby fish that is black in color. I thought I caught all the bigger fish in the pond but this morning one was hiding out in a corrugated tube I put in there for just that purpose. This fish was in bad shape-a lot of bruising and scraping and missing scales. Perhaps when my husband and I were in the pond trying to catch them he was bruised and banged up by us or by hiding in the rocks he hurt himself. I caught him and started treatment and rotated all the fish around. My patio is filled with rubbermaid containers. One has antibotics for dips, one is proform-c for dips and the others are clean fresh but treated water standing at outside temperature for when the holding tank is too dirty and I need to shift fish around to clean it. I have a heavy fish load in a 75 gallon tank. Things are looking up though. The fish are very hungry today (the most I have seen them eat in a month) eating their medicated food. The ulcers and tail rot are still the same in the few that have the problems but the energy levels are picking up in the weak fish. I suspect that tomorrow I will see a lot of change in their energy levels and will be able to figure out which fish are in the worse shape of the lot. I ordered my microscope two days ago and should have it in a few days. Hopefully that will not be an all day affair trying to figure out what parasite exactly is affecting them.
Get your gallons figured out in the pond and work out the proper dosage of potassium permanganate. It's very serious stuff. But, if you want to clear a pond of bad bacteria, fungus and parasites it does it all. As MerryMary said, and isolated ulcer can be spot treated with a paste of PP on a q-tip. One swabbing is all that's necessary. If you have one fish flashing and all others seem fine dipping the ailing one in PP is better than treating the whole pond.
I reccommend two references for using PP - "The Pond Doctor" by Helen Nash and
this site
http://www.2uv.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=40&category=13&name=Medications
Here is the text from KoiVet
"Potassium permanganate - by Doc Johnson
Potassium permanganate is perhaps my favorite in the treatment of Koi. This is a big change from four years ago when I suggested folks leave this one alone. It's a very powerful medicant which can kill fish if not respected.
Potassium is a granular powder which turns the water purple during it's effect. It oxidizes organic material, including the surfaces of bacterial sores (ulcers) and the parasites that cause them. Once it's spent it's energy on the pond and parasites, the potassium turns amber or brown and can be removed with a water change or with hydrogen peroxide (3% USP) - See peroxide information below.
Potassium permanganate is applied at the rate of one gram per one hundred gallons or one level teaspoonful per six hundred gallons. I use 8 level teaspoonsful in my 4800 gallon pond. Once the potassium has turned Amber or brown, I can remove it with a waterchange or with Hydrogen Peroxide (3% USP) - In case of overdosage or untoward reaction to the potassium, you should be aware that it is INSTANTLY de-activated by De-Chlor (Sodium thiosulfate) or also by Hydrogen peroxide. The neutralizing effects may last three to four DAYS afterwards, inhibiting subsequent treatments. For best results with Flukes, (parasites of trematode class) you would be well advised to treat for several days, but being sure to apply a final treatment on day four or five. This intercepts any emerging trematodes that may have hidden on the bottom."
In my opinion, every serious koi keeper should understand and consider the benefits of PP, when necessary.
PS- ALso remember, as Snapples states above...deChlor will neutralize it, so make sure you haven't added fresh dechlorinization of some sort prior to the treatment.
:)
Any suggestions on how to get the "exact" gallons in my pond? I have the little baby fish hiding in there and I had the pond built with a lot of ledges to hide and those ledges are working . . . I can get the pond down fairly low then how would I know how much water is in it afterwards? Is there a way to count the water coming out of the hose??? Sounds silly but is there something like that?
Yep,
http://www.amazon.com/Melnor-Gardena-Flowmeter-Water-Timer/dp/B00176FFJC/ref=pd_cp_hi_3?pf_rd_p=413863601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00004SDVZ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=145KJPTBEESHK3B33YZN
I have one on every faucet.
This message was edited Sep 4, 2008 8:55 PM
They have online calculators for pond gallons...if you google it. It's the depth, width, and length....and then it converts it to the gallonage.
Linda..
How much Water do I Have?
Step1Write down your pond's length, width and depth.
Step2Multiply the length times the width and you have square feet.Multiply the depth times the square feet and you have cubic feet.
Step3There are @7.5 gallons in one cubic foot. Multiply the cubic feet times 7.5 and you know how many gallons you have.
Step4If you have a round pond, find out the diameter (The length across the circle). Halve the diameter and you have the radius. Square the radius. (Multiply it times itself). Now multiply that number times Pi. (3.14) and you have the square footage of the surface area.
Step5Multiply that number times the depth and you have the cubic feet. Multiply the cubic feet times 7.5 and you know how many gallons of water are in your pond.
I did the math calculation and it is 5000 gallons BUT it is irregular and I have a 35 foot stream. I'm thinking EXACT gallons or isn't that necessary?
You can also do a salt test. You measure the salt level in the pond, than add a known quantity of salt and measure the change. I had the math on this somewhere but I'm having trouble finding it at the moment. It does work. That's how I measured my pond volume after I made a change to the pond shape. I'll keep looking for the formula.
Things are stabilized-I ordered the PP and the microscope is on its way. Call my the "Fish Doctor"
Maybe you could get some of the cost back by offering diagnostic services to others in your area. In one season's time I think you've battled almost every different problem I've ever heard of. I won't mention the ones you have yet to experience because I don't want to jinx anything.
LOL Snapple. I don't believe in jinx's and I don't feel qualified to help others with health issues but got a kick out of your post. I feel like I am playing Russian Roulette with all the fish rotations from one rubbermaid container to the next and cleaning out the previous containers. I just can't keep up with the fish waste in 75 gallons. Hopefully all my supplies and microscope will arrive on Monday so that I can get them back into the pond in a few days. They are improving-some faster than others. Scales are coming off and there is some minimal healing on the ulcers of a few fish. I am not releasing all the fish back into the pond at the same time. The few that are the most vulnerable are going to be in my holding tank for a while. I still am pondering about how I am going to catch my baby koi. I have a little bit of water in the bottom of the pond. Maybe I will drain a little more off and see if I can net anything.
I drained the pond to nearly the bottom. The bottom of the pond is very gross. Lots of bugs and wormy things and larva things. . . Not nice. And the smell of the algae made my eyes tear! I added the PP to just the bottom and it lasted the pink color only about an hour. I then added water to the pond and filled it all the way and put the pp in again and it has been a few hours and the water is still pink. I don't have fish in the pond and I gave up finding any babies (believe me I really tried but after 24 hours and nothing, I gave up). I caught the last two frogs after multiple attempts (and lots of escapes from the frogs). I believe I have them safely contained so that they won't be eaten by a raccoon like the last lot. I think I will put the bucket in the garage tonight just in case. . . I kinda like those smiley guys!
I tried the microscope yesterday for a few hours until I felt like my eye was going to fall out. I only saw these wormy looking things but they were not like the examples of flukes on koi-vet. They moved differently than the koi vet movies. Only one fish had something like this on it and overall all the fish are doing way better and the ulcers are showing healing scales.
Does a lot of gunk settle on the pond bottom? How deep?
My memory is failing me but I think it is about 4 feet deep. Yes there was some gunk on the bottom, bugs and algae. There was some medicated food leftover from before I caught the fish and unidentified stuff (probably poop . . .). I do not have a bottom drain and wish that I would have insisted on that with my pond builder. It would have made it easier to clear the bottom. I do have a few areas in the pond that don't "flush" or clear out of water. Like a low amount of circulation or a dead spot. They are small areas that my plants cause more of a problem because the plants settle there. I thought about additional water movement in one of those tow areas but wasn't sure how to go about it.
Anyway-pond is still pink which is good.
I hear you about the bottom drain. Do you use a sludge remover? There are three things I always add to the pond on a regular basis ( besides dechlorinator). MicrobeliftPL, Koi Clay and Aquascapes S.A.B.Extreme. On an occaisional basis I add Care Free Pond Protector. There are no chemicals in any of these products. Except for the MicrobeliftPl which is bacteria, they are all enzyme based. They are safe for all fish and all plants. The most critical product, for my set up, is S.A.B. Extreme. I can't recommend it highly enough. It keeps the water crystal clear, stops and prevents string algae dead in its tracks. The UV's take care of the pea green soup algae. I have maybe two cups of sludge that settles in pockets in about a months time that I can scoop out with a net. The enzymes break down organic matter and keep it suspended so that it can be filtered out. I'll warn you, SAB Extreme is expensive. I've never found it for sale locally. I've always had to internet order. It pays to really search for it because the price differences can be huge. Check you dmail
Thanks Snapple-saw the d-mail-I used this in the beggining when I opened the pond this spring and after that ran out I used microlift both the regular and the sludge remover. I ordered the water calculator for my hose but still have not recvd it. When I get the exact amount of water for my pond figured out then I think things will improve.
I made a paste of the pp and put it on the fish ulcers. One fish isn't doing too well since then and it has been a few hours. This fish had the most sores on it's body. That stuff must hurt a lot as the fish were really fighting me to get away from it.
BTW: Did anyone ever notice that fish from Japan are harder to handle than fish born and bred in the states? I have three koi from Japan and they are just soooooo hard to catch and to treat medically. Maybe the difference is that they are my newest koi and weren't as sick (or sick at all) as the rest of the fish. They just seem to have a lot more tenacity than my other fish even comparing them to when I first bought the other fish and they were presumable healthy.
Did you immeditely put the fish back in the water after treating? They should immediately go right back in. The ulcer needs to be completely covered, but only lightly.
Immediately back in and lightly teated but completely treated. They are all doing well tonight. That one really had me worried as he was sliding a little sideways after treatment but is now swimming normally and seems to be a little perked up. All the fish seem a little more perked up since this morning. They are all back in the main quaranteen tank that I cleaned out. All these rubbermaid containers seem crazy but are working well for the situation. Does that medicine sting the ulcers?
BTW: The Japanese koi are still the most energetic of the lot! Transferring them around in the containers is difficult but so far no mishaps!
Yes. I do believe that it stings. Never having had any Japanese koi I can't say about their struggling, but my koi are no fans of being handled for anything. I keep them covered in water soaked bath towels when I do have to treat them. I try especially to keep their heads covered. A heavy wet towel makes it harder for them to flop around erractially. I also treat them while they are lying flat down in the bottom of a rubbermaid container with a wet towel on the bottom. Seems to help them from injuring themselves or getting away somehow. I'm all about control and being quick. We lower the whole container into the water, tip it sideways and let them swim out on their own.
Well, Snapple my one fish did die over night. I was sure this fish was on the up swing but maybe it was already too far gone. All the other fish are doing great and are swimming around for the first time in weeks and ate hardily. I did my third PP treatment on the pond and this is my final course. The healthy fish will be transferred back into the pond on Saturday. I am keeping the most sick fish in quaranteen until I feel comfortable that they are mending up and healing.
L
Oh phooey. I'd say more but this is a family web site. I hate it when I lose a fish. Nothing worse. I hate it for you. It's such a tough way to start out.
It's hard to lose a fish, an animal or even a plant . . . Though it happened, I still consider myself lucky to not have lost anymore. It's raining cats, dogs and frogs here in Illinois. Makes it difficult to play with pond/fish and health issues but I guess that is okay for a day.
mothermole, you're getting lots of great advice here, so there's not a whole lot more I can add. But I will say that your experience sounds very similar to my first year with my pond. It seemed I had no end to problems with it - the levels tested ok, but nothing was thriving and my fish kept getting sick and eventually all died. The following year I started over (after much research). I added more filtration and two bottom drains and, of course, made it larger ;o). I also removed all the rocks from the bottom. The difference was dramatic and immediate. I've now been through 3 seasons with the rebuilt pond and I NEVER test the water, my maintenance is so minimal that it's not even worth mentioning, my water is crystal clear and I haven't lost a single fish. I am convinced that the bottom drains and removing the rocks were the key for me. I won't go as far as to say that everyone needs to do those two things - but I offer it here because your experience seems similar and it may be worth looking into.
Yes to rock removal! I wound up taking all mine out too. I can't retrofit a bottm drain but if I could I would. I am lucky in that the initial pond design has limited any slow circulation pockets so sludge on the bottom is limited to about two cups or less a week. Good water flow and the use of a few enzyme products keeps any debris from settling so they are filtered out. You wouldn't believe the amount of sludge I get out of the filters.
Ahhh, it was a very bad day today. My yard and my basement flooded very badly. So much water flowed that my 3 sump pumps couldn't keep up. My pond extended out onto 15 feet of my patio and was 4-6 inches high. IF my fish were in the pond they might've been swimming on my patio this morning! The basement was recently upgraded and remodeled and looked great. Not anymore! New carpeting-ruined. Two big screen TV's and a Wii system-probably ruined. 5 couches wet but we were told my the water restoration company that they would be okay. Brand new bathroom - ruined! Brand new paint job-ruined.
So as you can guess the fish did not get put back into the pond today. They won't go in tomorrow either because more rain is coming . . .
Oh for crying out loud. I wish I could help in some way. We got 4 inches today, but no flooding or pond overtopping. The turtle did climb out of the pond and he and I actually strolled down the flagstone path together in the pouring rain. It was surreal. Flooding and high winds are supposed to come tomorrow night. I hope to goodness it somehow misses you.
mothermole, I know you've got a lot going on right now, but before you put the koi back in the pond check the pond pH relative to the pH in the treatment tanks. Excessive rain, from which you are suffering mightily, can change the pond pH. Too big a difference could cause a problem. A good discussion with simple management strategies are in the article in this link. ( I think the Midwest Pond & Koi Society might be a neighbor of yours.)
http://www.mpks.org/articles/BobPassovoy/acid.htm
This message was edited Sep 14, 2008 12:46 AM