Hey MG experts, I would like some feed back on this...I gave a few seeds of my Kawaru MG from last year to a trading friend. She sowed a few and all but one died. What she got was pretty cool, a mutant of sorts. I am going to post a few pics of it and then my original flower from last year. LMK what you all think. Needless to say I am going to grow a few of my own (didn't do any this year real sorry now!) inside this winter to see what I get.
This message was edited Aug 29, 2008 3:07 PM
Next
Another
One more
My original.
She did say all of the flowers and leaves were the same....
Ronnie - Your mutant is a beaut!!!! It's not even a feather-looking type, but something quite different. I think Joseph has an odd one this year too. You two should swap seeds, grow both vines, and cross-pollinate them! :-)
My question ... how does a mutant like this happen from the original?
Becky I am hoping someone (Ron!) can tell us!!
Hi Ronnie,
I've cross-posted this thread to Patootie's #15, where I had commented on a similar type of MG posted by Momcat - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5485629 .
I hope y'all check out those links to Atenkley's elegant explanation, not to mention incredibly gorgeous photos of various types of MGs like yours - they all involve a "system" where gorgeous mutants that are not fertile have their pollen swished over the pistils of more ordinary-appearing siblings that are fertile. When seed is sown, the gardener hopes to see both the non-fertile mutants and the fertile, more ordinary-appearing flowers in order to perpetuate the cultivar.
WOW. ..That first picture is grand... Brilliant colors.. and the unusual flower shape is so like the unconvential leaf shape.. what a great line to work with... Keep them comming...
I'd love to see this in full bloom on the vine... where it sits..
Keepup the good work there... Gordon
Thanks Karen and Gordon, the problem is I didn't grow the mutant one, I grew the original that I guess is carrying the gene. My friend hasn't crossed any on her own.
I will grow some of my original seed in the house this winter to see if I get any mutants too.
If any one wants to grow some out LMK.
Definately grow your seed out. The mutant in all probability is sterile. I purchased mutant seeds last year and the gene is carried in the normal plant, according to the seller.
Ronnie, I'm in the same boat with you since all of my seedlings from A. are the nonfertile, more ordinary-looking one, too. I'm going to try crossing them with descendants of Gardener2005's Ipomoea youjiro "double, dark-blue Kikyou". How about you? I think you're one of several folks to whom I sent a grant total of 1 seed from what I grew out last year. Hopefully, I'll have more to share this year - it'll depend on how well I can fight off white flies and other pests indoors later on this fall without major toxic chemicals. (See http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/896515/, as well as sticky).
Would it be possible to strongly bribe your friend to swish some pollen of the willow one over the stigma of the fertile one? If we can't find out any particular favorite plant of hers, how about finding out types of plants she likes? Let us know if there's anything she's looking for or might like to have.
I think it's so magical that these fascinating mutants are popping up here and there among this forum and very much appreciate your sharing this with us. I wonder if these originated with Atenkley?
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If this is a bad idea, you don't have to read any further. But! if we succeed in finding a plant she'd like to have in exchange for trying to fertilize her willow MG, maybe these directions will help -
Here's a diagram you could show her that shows where the stigma and anthers are: http://www.cs.umb.edu/~whaber/Monte/Plant/Conv/conv-part.html .
Late in the day, she could locate a bud on each kind of flower that looks like it will open the next morning and enclose them in a sandwich baggie that can be sealed shut. The next morning, she could cut off the pollen-laden anthers from the ordinary-looking flower, and after removing the corolla from the willow flower, she could swish the revealed pollen-laden anthers over the stigma of the fertile flower and enclose it again for a couple of days, after which the baggie could be removed and a piece of yarn tied to that little stalk that attaches the fertilized flower to the main stem.
And then, hopefully, when the pod matures and reaches that crispy-brown stage, she could harvest seeds before the pod shatters :)
Ronnie - Waving my hand here! LOL! I would love to try a couple of seeds from last year's vine of this interesting mutant of yours! Very cool blooms! :-) You know me ... I love surprises! LOL! I am game to try growing some. Thanks for posting that offer to us.
Karen I will email her and ask first if it is still blooming...question from me though, so I understand a bit, if it is a non fertile plant will there still be pollen? I am sure if she can do it she will...I will keep you posted.
Also my original seed came from MGJ last year.
Becky I will definitely put your name on some! ,
Cool! Thanks, Ronnie! Maybe we can get some more vines to grow that produce that interesting bloom! I am so curious as to how such a gene happens. It is so unusual ...
Hi Ronnie, I'm going by implied context here, so hopefully others will chime in if my remarks need correcting. A while back, Lambchop clued me in over on the Daylily forum that some cultivars of daylilies were only fertile via their pollen, others only through their pods, and yet others through both pollen and pod. Lo and behold, something similar was going on the whole time right under my nose with morning glories. So, perhaps it would be more accurate to refer to the "nonfertile" MG beauty as the "pollen-fertile" parent and the "fertile" MG ugly duckling as the "pod-fertile" parent in the cases of these particular mutant MGs.
A couple of years before Lambchop, though, I was trading seeds I harvested from Lilium 'Black Beauty'. The pods were fully mature and just beginning to crack open when I harvested them. But, then, I found out from someone with whom I traded those seeds that the seeds were not germinating. Next, I contacted everyone else I had traded with, and the seeds had not germinated with them, either. Fortunately for my ignorant hide, esw came to the rescue, and explained to me that I had a diploid form of Black Beauty which was known to make seeds, but not viable ones. Viable lily seeds have a darker, barely noticeable swelling in the center of the seeds, and evidently only the tetraploid form of Black Beauty makes viable seeds. Effects of ploidy (look up term on Wikipedia) will vary among different cultivars.
Becky, there are strands of genetic material in the nucleus of cells of most types of living organisms called DNA (deoxyribosenucleic acid - spelling?). They often occur in nature as diploids, but when humans soak them in a solution (colchicine?) derived from Colchicum, sometimes those strands of DNA double and thus become tetraploid.
This genetic material determines the identity of each individual organism, and when molecules comprising the strands get rearranged, knocked out of order or multiplied, we get a new life form. This is how mutation works (would there be evolution without mutation?) - it changes the identity of a life form. What goes on within the DNA, though, is not always noticeable; that is, a mutation in the genes may not be manifest physically.
In addition to colchicum, there are many other chemicals including pesticides that can cause a mutation (for example, children with birth defects of soldiers exposed to Agent Orange during the Vietnam War). Radiation can cause mutations, such as some Iraq children with birth defects now being born to Iraqis exposed to the depleted uranium that coated the missiles we used over there - evidently when those missiles are fired, the depleted uranium vaporizes and people inhale it (stays around for millions of years, can be globally dispersed via atmospheric activity) (American soldiers' future children are also at risk) . Viruses are thought to cause some of those mutations on conifers called "witches brooms" - hence, dwarf pines or dwarf spruces, etc. There are probably other agents that can cause a mutation. (In some cases, an agent of change may not have been definitively proven to have caused the mutation attributed to it, but due to strong statistical probabilities, the link will remain a working hypothesis until more facts are aquired. Depending on vested interests, causal links can be both *proven* and *disproven*)
I don't know off hand what caused or causes morning glory mutations - could be any number of things and the process is quite random. But, some of these mutations are stable and their offspring manifest the same characteristics as the parents, via this unusual way of propagation with pollen-fertile beauties and pod-fertile ugly ducklings.
This was just off the top of my uneducated head, so I will REALLY welcome input from more knowledgeable folks.
Karen - Thanks! I do know that many factors can cause mutations. I guess what I should've worded it was ...
Ronnie and the friend with whom she shared the seeds with ... how exactly did you grow these? Different fertilizer, soil, pesticides, or is it possible that the DNA was there from whomever Ronnie got the original seeds from, but it took another generation to finally have that mutation show up?
I am always curious as to what and how the Japanese get such mutations, too. Is it just cross-pollinating mutant flowers or doing something differently to the vine itself? Or the soil? Or what you choose to fertilize the vine with? Or ... or ... or ...
I, like you Karen, am truly fascinated with how these mutations are produced. There is probably no one single answer to any of this. But it sure does boggle the mind to comptemplate it all! LOL! Thanks for making a stab at an explanation for me! :-)
OK so I understand that a flower like humans will produce are productive products but unless they are fertilized no baby (viable seeds) are produced? Please do pardon any ignorance on my part. I will be the first to admit there are absolutely NO scientific genes in this brain!! LOL
Becky I can only answer part of your question for now as to how my seeds were grown last year... Grown in a 2 gallon black plastic pot in Pro mix potting soil with no additives other than miracle grow bloom booster every couple of weeks. I will double check but I do believe my friend grew hers the same way since I told her what I do!! LOL
Ronnie, yes, flowers have reproductive parts. In the case of the system carrying for the willow flower, (Ron, close your ears) we could for the sake of argument compare the plain flower, which will produce the seedpod, to the female; and the willow flower, which produces the pollen that will be scattered like Ye Wilde Oats (Ron - still got your ears closed?) to the male.
We swish the pollen from the willow flower (male) onto the stigma in the plain flower (female). See diagram and instructions in this post, below the dotted line: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5486364
Notice, in the diagram how the stigma is connected to the ovary via the style - think of the one with the ovary as the female - that is where hopefully the seedpod will form.
Apologies to Ron for mixing up animal and plant kingdoms here. Ronnie, you're not the only one asking pardon for ignorance around here.
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Becky, the genes for the willow MG have been around for hundreds of years - not always manifest, but there. Dr. Yoneda's website shows how old the willow form is - http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/menu.html . The willow gene is one of many whose propagation involves the system I previously explained (and Atenkley did it much better - hope you read his 2 links given above and in the sticky)
I too would love to know what breeding program the Japanese used/followed to produce such exotic mutants. But, I'll bet the Japanese were helped along by the unusually high tendency of morning glories to mutate - not many flowers the size of Ipomoea nil are as mutable (changeable) as Ipomoea has proven to be. This is why morning glories are said to be the second most researched plant on earth (after corn). (Imagining nutating MGs mutating all by themselves while Japanese horticulturists sat by and took notes - but don't you wonder what kind of research is being conducted on them now?)
One of the mutants* portrayed on an old Edo period woodcut on Dr. Yoneda's website looks like its stem might have widened into something resembling a flat board. If so, it's interesting because oodles of different plants - a bramble in a local fields, a regale lily in my garden - and many other kinds** - share this phenomena called fasciitis. Many different things are known to cause it - viruses, chemicals, etc. If this morning glory's stem shape is indeed fasciitis (caused by a virus?), how fascinating that its seedlings reproduced true to the parent.
* Edo mutant with possible fasciitis of stem - http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/slides/slide068-079.html - Figure 15
** A thread on fasciitis of plants - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/877890/
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Apologies to those who know better than I about these matters - all input/corrections welcome
edited to add that mutant Edo MG with suspected fasciated stem is Figure 15 on Yoneda's link
This message was edited Aug 30, 2008 8:23 PM
Hey Ronnie I think you have the same critter I am growing! How cool is that?! I am getting the double flower and the dianthus flower and had the single one but cut the single vines off...maybe I shouldn't have done that. They are growing back from the roots so they would flower up ok before the killing frosts if I needed them.
Joseph
Joseph, beyond gorgeous flowers - isolating the vine(s) with the dianthus and double flowers sounds fine to me - but, does their pollen need to be swished over the stigma of a plain relative for perpetuation?
I wish you had piped up with the others last summer when folks were requesting seed I had collected from a seedling grown out from Gardener2005's mixed youjiro picotee. That seedling was a double, dark-blue, slightly picoteed Kikyou, and when Gard05 grew the seed I sent back to her from that seedling, one of her seedlings was true to the parent from her original mixture.
I would love for you to have been able to try a cross between the dianthus/double mutant you're growing now and a seedling from this Kikyou. A very iffy situation, though - everyone only got one seed, with 5 left for me and 5 sent back to Gard05 who sent me the seed in the first place.
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Ronnie, I just re-read your first post and now realize your friend only has that one dianthus-flowered MG of its kind. By the looks of the leaves of my willow-gene-carrying vines, only plain flowers will be thrown. I have 4 or 5 vines that are not very far along - do you think your friend might like for me to send her one - if I haven't made too big a pest out of myself by now? (I have successfully sent seedling MGs via US mail in summer, and so far, I'm told the vines made it just fine)
Karen I emailed her and asked her if she was still getting flowers which she is...I am waiting on an answer to see if any "normal" flowers are being produced. Will LYK know on that.
I am sure she would be willing to try your plant but I am beginning to think it may be getting to late in the season? She would be z6 but cooler than me as she is more west in PA. I did ask her if she is able to bring it inside and am also waiting for that answer.
She started 3 seeds of which one grew, they others germinated but died. They were started in Feb. She does have them growing in a pot and was feeding them Schultz 10 10 10 fertilizer every couple of weeks.
One more question from me. Do we need a normal flower for crossing because the mutants are infertile? Or can the mutants be crossed to each other? Someday I will understand!! LOL
Think of the mutants as all "boys", and that should answer that question ^_^
Ronnie, we need a normal flower for crossing because the mutants' reproductive parts can not make a seed, although the pollen of the mutants is fertile.
To make an MG seed, you need two kinds of reproductive parts:
1) Stigma - The stigma is connected to the ovary which is where the seed will form IF pollen gets swished over the stigma (see diagram http://www.cs.umb.edu/~whaber/Monte/Plant/Conv/conv-part.html )
2) Pollen - Pollen consists of those grains you can see sprinkling the surface of the anthers. It's these grains of pollen that produce the sperm that fertilizes the ovary. (heavily paraphrased from DG's Botanary entry by Jody)
You know what I think will help? Print out the picture of the diagram of a morning glory flower and take it out into your garden while MGs are blooming. Then, choose a flower *victim* and pull it apart so you can identify its parts with the diagram right there to refer to.
That was one of the most fun Aha! moments I've had with this forum. There are some things that I *know* from context (which isn't *knowing* at its deepest or most accurate) and there are other things that Ron and company on this forum MAKE me *know* in a clearer sense because they make me ask myself, Self, what do you REALLY know? Not much, actually - Ron just makes that *unknown* get bigger and bigger all the time - LOL:)
Oh, yes indeedy, mutants belonging to Ipomoea nil can be crossed with each other and
almost anything else belonging to the species, Ipomoea nil. Just be sure that wherever you put their pollen, that you put it someplace where a seed can form (or experiment to find out).
Mutants theoretically could even be crossed with Ipomoea youjiro, although that one might take more work. Imagine crossing a double hige from Ipomoea purpurea with a Ipomoea youjiro which has both nil and purpurea genes. And then, imagine crossing the result of THAT with a seedling descended from that double, dark-blue Kikyou descended from Gardener2005's youjiro mix (Ronnie I sent you a seed from that double, dark-blue youjiro I grew last summer).
I hope I haven't made things more confusing with all my blabbering here. Keep asking me any questions that occur to you. We've both got a lot to learn here.
Oops - sorry Hillbilly_Gran - we crossed in cyberspace. Ronnie, listen to Hillbilly_Gran - we can think of the plain MG as the female because it has the ovary, and the mutant MG as the male because it has the sperm.
So let me get this straight ... the mutants only have mutant flowers or is this vine also producing normal blooms? Is this true for ALL mutant vines? Or is it dependent on what type of blooms it is producing?
So now I have to ask this question ...
What about the higes/feathers? Are they consider mutant and producing pollen only?
How do you know if they have both ovary and pollen? Besides cutting one up?
I had the reverse problem...
My cross (Lady Yaguruma's Kaleidoscope) that was not producing pollen. (I looked, no pollen whatsoever!) So I had to cross that one with available pollen. Apparently it worked, as I got lots of seeds! I, too, do the swishing. I actually am not so gentle with my paint brush. I have watched the big bumblebees go at it and they are not gentle either. I've gotten a lot of seeds from doing that swishing on numerous plants over the past year. I have watched as I have a brush loaded with pollen and then swished it over the stigma. The stigma is sticky and the pollen attaches to it almost like wet glue. If not careful, I can unload almost ALL the pollen onto one stigma. Once it sticks, it's not coming off easily. I don't know how long (minutes, hours, days???) it takes for the pollen to what? Travel down to the ovary and fertilize the egg(s)? Also ... do you need a lot of pollen as in mammal reproduction, to breech each egg? And how many "eggs" per flower are there? 1,3, 5, 6, or more? Each seed (egg) may produce a different vine, correct ... depending on where the pollen came from? Can pollen split to produce a fraternal "twin"? I understand mammal reproduction, but I am not as educated in plant reproduction. It does sound very similar.
This message was edited Aug 31, 2008 10:06 AM
Nice flowers Ronie Paul
