The beginning of my little backyard orchard

This is kind of the same view I showed at the very beginning of this thread, but now almost a year later. (and there are more trees!)

Wow, really looks good!

Here's my raspberry set-up. The green vinyl-coated wires are being replaced by clear vinyl-coated wires that do not stretch (new wire is 3/16" aircraft cable). I only have 3 horizontal wires on each side of the canes (and 2 rows) and I'm thinking to add a fourth wire. A large maple tree fell on my trellis and canes in February, crushing a lot. I can see by the photo that one post has worked loose again... need to set it deeper I guess. All the posts suffered with the weight of the tree on the wires connecting them.

This is for my new thornless blackberries... their canes are huge, and grow 10' long. I'll just wire the canes to the cattle panel.

I like the cattle panel set up - we thought about it, but all our cattle panels are currently being used to hold in sheep and goats and llamas! I might think about it if we change that fencing. The raspberry set up looks great too. I like the two sides to it. Should make it easier for picking than my setup. Well, we shall see how it goes - I just wanted to get them planted sooner rather than later and I can modify as needed, hopefully.

That maple tree fall must have been very damaging to the garden. :-(

Yeah, it was... and I thought I'd never get all of it cleaned up. It had been dead 2+ years and I left it standing for the birds. (My feeders were nearby and it gave then a safe perch nearby.)

CMoxon, What a great and ambitious project. Your research and attention to detail is sure to pay off. The only helpful suggestion I have, is if you are not already on top of it, do a little research on training/pruning your new trees. What you do now will determine the shape and form of your trees in the future. And that will impact their health and fruit production. Pay attention to things like eliminating crotches and deciding what shape you want a particular tree to have when it matures. Mistakes at this point will haunt you as long as a tree lives. I know this from having made mistakes and it is a hard way to learn. Don

Don - great advice indeed! I took a class at the Iowa Arboretum on how to prune, which was helpful. I learned about water sprouts and such too. I also bought a book about pruning fruit trees. I think it will be a bit of trial and error, but I'm going to do my best. As I planted these new ones, I did eliminate some crossed branches, but right now, I want them to focus on getting their roots established. Lots of llama poop mixed in with the soil!

One thing I would like to learn is how to make a tree more branched. I have some that are quite tall, maybe 5-6 feet, but with no branching to speak of - I guess they qualify as "whips." I am tempted to cut the tip out to encourage the growth of side branches. Do you think that is a good idea, or not?

Cmoxon, Without seeing the trees first hand it is hard to form an opinion or give advice, but I would consider cutting a tall stone fruit tree without any branching down to little more than knee hight. That is assuming it is still young and the trunk is not already too thick. Any branching that occurs on a six foot high whip is going to give you a tree that will require a ladder to work on.

Unless the branching is perfect or almost perfect, when I receive them, I cut my bare root (standard size trees) down to about knee hight, when I plant them, and then pinch off any new developing branches that are not where I want them, until I have three or four good branches that I am happy with. This has never interfered with root development. Of course, I am growing in an intirely different climate zone from you and I never plant dwarf or semidwarf trees. Dwarf trees are grafted onto a weeker root stock in order to stunt their growth and maybe cutting the grafted tree back would effect such root stock. I have no experience or knowledge in that area.

I do know that allowing main branches to develop that are not a ninty degree angle (or almost) to the trunk will form a crotch that is a week spot and subject to splitting later under a heavy load of fruit. I learned this the hard way and it is heartbreaking to go out into the orchard one morning and find a beautiful, healthy peach or plum or nectarine with a fruit laden main branch lying on the ground under the tree. Don

I disagree that dwarf rootstock is necessarily weaker. Rootstocks are developed and chosen for many reasons: disease resistance, cold hardiness, yield, toleration of various soil conditions, etc.

It is also not true that dwarf or semi-dwarf rootstocks will limit a tree to those sizes. They still require pruning to maintain the desired size.

I have a final exam tomorrow (ugh) so am studying like mad today, but will take pictures of some of the whips and post them after my exams and perhaps that would help with the advice. Thanks!
p.s. never go back to school in your 40's, it's a pain in the butt!

Darius, I limit my standard tree hights by vigorous summer pruning. They are all no higher than I can work on them without a ladder. (I am 75 yrs. old and try to limit my ladder climbing. I am also 6'4") I do allow them to spread out quite a bit. But with only three or four main branches and the tree shaped like a bowl, I can easily get inside to perform neccesary pruning, thinning and picking. I also, as explained above, start my main branches low to the ground. About knee to hip hight. The bowl shape lets in lots of sunlight. As to your comments about a long wait for fruit production. I strip all fruit the first year after planting and usually get a good crop the second year. I don't know what you are talking about when you say you cannot wait for a standard tree to produce fruit. Maybe our growing conditions are different.

I realise that root stocks are selected for a variety of reasons and differing conditions. Some being better in one area than another. But the fruit producing tree grafted onto the various root stocks are all the same (for the same varieties). That being the case, how can a semidwarf or dwarf tree be created without restricting the growth of the grafted variety with a weaker or less vigorous root stock? Even though, as you say, all fruit trees will, or should, require some pruning, dwarf trees, are by definition, smaller than standard trees. This is achieved by restricting or slowing the growth of the variety grafted onto the less vigorous root stock. If this is not the case, what is meant by the term dwarf and what advantage other than a smaller size is infered by the term dwarf tree? Or maybe I have it all wrong and you can refer me to some good sources to disprove my assumptions. I am always open to learning. Don

This message was edited May 6, 2009 9:06 AM

This message was edited May 6, 2009 9:13 AM

Don, thanks. I'm getting too old to deal with ladders much myself!

I am of the understanding that rootstock for dwarfing is selected from plants of the same botanical genus and species (although they can be of a different variety) choosing things like size and vigor in the rootstock. That doesn't necessarily make them weaker. There are many things other than rootstock that can make them weak... cambriums not meeting properly, scions upside down or not dormant, grafted at the wrong time...

Plants with the same genus but of a different species often can be grafted. But the result may be weak or short-lived, or they may not unite at all.

Naturally dwarfed trees are an altogether different matter. I have just begun researching rootstocks in the last year, as a prelude to ordering fruiting trees, and I have lots to learn.

Darius, I stand corrected. My use of the word "weaker" was a bad choice as it can imply a lot of things other than less vigorous or slower growing. I did not mean weaker in disease resistance or any other characteristic other than growth restriction. If I were growing in pots, as some of our friends in colder climates do, I would definatly opt for dwarf trees. You might want to take a look at the Dave Wilson Nurseries website and review their thoughts and advice on tree selection and care for the home grower.

As to having a lot yet to learn.......tell me about it. I have read a dozen books and belong to the rare fruit growers association and always read their publications from cover to cover, and I still feel like I know only a very small fraction of what is out there in the way of knowledge. Before you decide "no" to apples, you might want to take a look at what Kuffel Creek has to say and offer. Don

Thanks. I have spent time on the Dave Wilson site but not for tree selection. I'll have to seek out Kuffel Creek.

Kuffel Creek....never heard of that one....oh great, something else to distract me from my studying! Urgh!!!

Whew....Kuffel Creek is sold out for 2009. That was close! Actually, they seem focused on varieties that grow best in Southern California, which probably would not suit the climate in Iowa, so I can feel like I am not missing out on too much.

I was interested in your discussion on rootstocks. I had always thought that the dwarf and semi-dwarf trees were grown on rootstock that was just naturally short, but that the tree would have the normal spread that it would have had if it was grown on its own root. I guess I am wrong on that. Good to keep learning! We took a class in apple grafting at the Iowa Arboretum the year before last. It was fun, and some of our apple trees are still fine (but slow growing). I want to put them into the ground this year - we kept them in containers for the first year or so in order to bring them inside over the winter - a bit of pampering seemed like it would not hurt.

I want to check out the tree selections from Fedco, but I might overspend...

Doesn't Fedco quit shipping before May?

You might try Stark's. They sell things later than any company I am aware of.

Have you thought of Pawpaw? Or any nut trees?

I just looked at Fedco. They shut down May 15.