Hi guys: What evei=beevie is saying I have found to be quite true - if you give them their own garden to browse, then they will be less tempted to go into your garden. You know, there is no place I know of that doesn't claim they have too FEW deer. One reason the deer here are so much higher than 100 years ago is that we eliminated all of their natural predators (save the Coyotes, who will take down the ill, old and very young). We used to joke with the weekenders in the Hamptons that they should be careful on their "nature" walks, because the deer were waiting in the bushed with blowguns full of "Lyme ticks". Lyme disease was probably always around, but now we have altered the environment to such an extent, that we are in more contact with artificially heightened populations of animals whose predators we have destroyed, hence the rise in cases of Lyme. remember it was only in the late 80's that Lyme was even identified (I know one of the Dr's who "discovered" what it was) in the old days, people probably got it, though I grant more ocassionally than now, and nobody knew what it was or had the science to diagnose it. I understand the frustration, but we must always keep in mind the following, it is truth that cannot be swept aside, denied or otherwise ignored: this Earth of ours is a working system, and a working system will tend towards homeostasis if left alone. But every time we try to "fix" something that annoys or inonveniences us, we create a new problem, which to me is proof of the previous statement. This planet and Her life are a circle. A delicate, fragile, beautiful, exquisite circle. IMO we must always remember that, otherwise we are working against what is true in nature. I may have offended here, but that is what I believe. That is the truth, and as Gandhi said, there is no God higher than Truth.
Wildlife and you...and your gardens...and ponds..
Some very good points, morrigan. But what do you about the negative consequences of past mistakes? Just l let it continue to get worse and cause even more problems?? The out of control deer population is more than an annoyance or inconvenience. They cause car accidents that kill and uincapacitate people. They make lyme disease more common and if not caught early, it can have very serious consequences, including paralysis.
As for the 'you have yours and I'll have mine' approach, I have not seen evidence of its success in my garden. I live in the burbs and don't have the luxury of completely encircling my property with stuff they dislike, surrounded by stuff they do. If I had that ability, I would just put up a deer fence! I have tried to surround things they like with things they don't and it does not work. They simply bypass what they dislike to get to what they do. This despite other things they like being outside this area. In other words, I have tried this on a smaller scale within my garden and it has not worked.
In my personal experience, the deer were not a problem when I started to garden. If they were the problem they are today, I would not have started. I believe we have an obligation to do our best to improve a situation we created, even if there is a chance that the next solution will cause additional problems. That's true for many things.
The deer are so overpopulated that the nutrition is poor & some starve in the winter. DH had what is now termed Lyme disease in the 40s as a boy. The agent which caused it wasn't ID. He lived in East Islip and it was known as "montauk knee". He lost a grade in school during recovery.
Victor: I can't wait to meet you. I think we'll get on quite well. Yes, I agree with the points you make about the problems, and I must say that I do not have "THE ANSWERS" to some of these things, because the answers, I think, are more complex than we do, they do, we do something else, nature does something else again kinds of answers. We each have our patch of earth (if we are lucky) and must make our decisions to the best of our abilities. Deer don't hit cars, people in cars hit deer, and that is because there are far too many cars with drivers intent on being unaware of the natural world around them. I to learn each and every routine place the deer and other animals make a habit of crossing the roads, and so I simply slow down in those places, and I am extra cautious around those spots. This is an easy fix, albeit not writtetn in granite, because most widely mobile wild animals have habitual trails that they follow. In fact, when I am in the woods wandering, if I lose my bearings, I always follow the deer trails and I always come our somewhere near where I started. If we learn about the habits of our cohabitants, we can do simple things to assist each other, esp. because they are so habitual. It's really all about perspective. Can we stop a moment and connect with another being to solve a problem, perhaps try to see what they do, or how they might view the same circumstances? I'm really talking deep ecology here.
As for Lyme, every tick now carries it, and the major vector is not the deer (propaganda) but the white-footed mouse! Because they host the larval stages of the Ixodes tick more often than not and it is that stage of development that is the most likely to pass on Lyme disease. Yes, Lymne can even cause death, many people I know have what is known as Chronic lyme disease and they have many, many problems. There is no dispute on that point. But what do we do about it? Cut down all the trees, leaves, grasses, wildflowers etc. and kill lots and lots of animals, all of which is costly beyond words - OR, do we take as much precaution as we can when out of doors and after we come back in, to ensure we do not get a tick bite?
As for the gardens, well, to me a perfect garden can only be created by THE creator, and I do my best to harm nobody, share with everyone, and make peace with what I alone cannot fix. The berries that grow on my side of the fence are for me, the ones that overgrow the fence on the "outside" are for them, etc. Now, if I were depending on what I grow for my life, I might take a different tack, but it would not include killing unless that was also a part of my being able to live (ie: I ate the meat, used the hide and whatever else could be used). Okay, I'll get off my stump now. Its just that I think cooperation is the key to everything. Bless you.
Do rabbits hibernate in the winter?
I look forward to meeting you too, morrigan. Yes, I was aware of the rodent vectors for lyme ticks, but deer still do spread them. And if I'm not mistaken, the ticks get rubbed off the deer higher on plants where we are more likely to offer them a ride while walking by.
As for the car accidents, there are too many cars AND too many deer! And when they dart across highways with people driving at highway speeds, it's often not possible to slow down or swerve. In fact, it's the attempt to avoid hitting the animals that often causes the accident.
I certainly don't have the answers, but thinning the herd certainly seems reasonable to me. The remaining ones will be healthier and something closer to a balance might result. On a practical note, their meat can feed hungry people.
I agree about cooperation. I'm just waiting for the deer to start! I have lots of great plants to offer them - Houttuynia, gooseneck loosestrife, Eupatorium Chocolate and other invasives. But no - they have to be picky, like my younger son!
Thanks!
rabbits do not hibernate. I see their tracks all winter.
Victor - I guess I assumed you had more space, given the pictures I've seen :) so many plants on a suburban lot - awesome! and yes, in the burbs you can't really combat the deer unless you get rid of everything they like :( I think this guy said he had a small lot, but unless you start that way it is hard to go back and encircle the lot. oh well.
Thank you evie. Wish I did have more room and was more rural. I would fence off my garden and leave a good chunk 'natural'. If I hit the lottery!
"if I hit the lottery"....think of all the plants we could buy! :)
I'm checking out the book, and looks like they put up a fence, but one a "determined deer" could jump, then planted thorny shrubs and such (hawthorn, native roses, gooseberries, etc) with some non-thorny ones as "filler." Maybe you could experiment with native roses or something that is decent looking in some spots to deter? again, brainstorming. you may just be SOL!
I certainly sympathize with you Victor. BTW Bambi and friends like roses very much, thorns and all, bless their little hooved hearts. There is 80 acres of conservation land that surrounds two sides of my yard. They can much and brunch all they want out there, just leaves my little plot alone. I use deer deterrents, chase them when I see them, plant the least tasty plants I can, with a few exceptions, and we seem to coexist and since they seem to have left my garden a;lone so far this year I am not hating them too much. This of course could change with a munching session during the next full moon. Here is one of the little "deers" just outside my front door.
Hey guys: No, bunnies are avtice all year round, you were right Evie. And Victor, I totally understand...maybe we should thin BOTH herds? (the dark side....only now does it come out~!) Anyway, there will be an answer. And goD bless their hearts, yes, people do get into alot more accidents by trying to avoid the deer. It take a little longer on the evolutionary scale for them to recognize cars as predators. I understand those deer whistles for your car do work, though. And yes, the ticks drop off a little higher up so humans can get lucky....too bad there wasn't a tick lottery! Wonder who'd win? ngam:what a beauty that doe is! I love their summer redness. I act like a lunatic around them when they seem to be getting too accustomed to being near a human. I jump around and act scary...someone offered to put it on youtube for me, but I declined. Shy, I guess. :-)
What is she doing there, Pat? Admiring the garden or planning her next treat?! Mo - I've heard those whistles don't really work. I wrote an article on deterring deer for DG a few months back and described the 'deranged dash' I've done more than once!
V - Ah, I had heard they DID work, except that if your dog was travelling with you, it would him/her nuts due to the ultrasonics. BTW, the does do the nin-mile dash most often in the later autumn and winter when the bucks are rutting, and you know, chasing them to do the ":naughty" thing. So those are times to be watchful too. They run from the boys and don't look back! (Unless of course he's got great looking antlers :-O)
Well another month or so and the ladies and little ones will start coming out of the woods around here looking to get some nice calorie filled goodies. Running at them , barking like a dog a waving my arms usually does the trick to encourage them to go elsewhere for their yummies. They are creatures of habit just like us I think, so if they get used to going in another direction so much the better. Oh ya I forgot the secret weapon that really scares the you know what outta them.....you must always wear really ugly pink garden clogs. :)
Mine are on order.^_^
Thanks for the bunny info! Beautiful Deer pic ngam! ☺
Victor writes....In my personal experience, the deer were not a problem when I started to garden. If they were the problem they are today, I would not have started . . .
Whoa....
But I suspect you aren't alone and that there are more than a few who have given up. So there is something else to consider here. Gardeners are excellent stewards of the environment. Amateur horticulturalists have provided many services to the wider society for centuries. If the burden becomes too great to continue,everyone loses. Especially the next generation who will be deprived of the memories we have of the gardens of our parent's and grandparent's generation.
This message was edited Jul 21, 2008 11:12 PM
wow so much to talk has been happening!!!! you guys are good... learned a lot of good things!
lots to think about it!
Here is Lilly.... my wild baby.... she is so cute... blind as bat but sooo cute.... love the way she knows my voice!
here is Nestle... my other cute one...
that's how big Neslte is....
and Cocoa... he is so much smaller....
look at this face... how can anyone not be nice to her... she is soooo adorable....
What, the caterpillar or the green droplet thingies below the caterpillar?
GLEEEEECH
Some sort of moth caterpillar leaving a lot of poop behind is what it looks like to me but I certainly am not an expert. A couple sites that may help id the furry guy.
http://whatsthatbug.com/caterpillar_3.html
http://pick4.pick.uga.edu/mp/20q?guide=Caterpillars
Toss it and let
"mother nature"take care of it.
You have birds don't you, they are looking for a snack about now doncha think? LOL
Just put her in the woods. Let her eat there. Why kill if it is not necessary...I didn't see anywhere in the photo where she was carrying a loaded weapon! :-O
On the overload of deer issue: I am sorry, but I still insist it is US that must make accomodations, find new and inventive ways to garden so that they are less of a problem in the garden. A short fix is just that. And we can't keep on cleaning up our messes ad infinitum. Read some Gregory Bateson! Read some materials on Deep Ecology! We can have our gardens AND the wildlife...yes, I'll go to my room now. I am sure I will un-invited to the next RU. sigh.
Morrigan, I welcome you to the next RU in my house... lol... you have your opinion and to me it's ok... everybody is entitled to one...
now, let's just talk about the "thing" that ate one of my favorite roses... no I don't know if is a gopher, a mole, a vole, a chipmunk... don't care who did... JUST want the @#$%**& creature OUT of my garden... and yes, I would kill it if I find it... (as long as I don't make eye contact... if I look an animal in the eyes, all my hate is gone... !!!!)
look at this... and yes, I screeeemmmmmemmmed bloody murder!!!!
poor Caramella Fairy Tale... such a gorgeous rose... all gone now...
schickenlady - they are easy to handle, as long as you are gentle. it should not be hard prickly but instead soft, if I remember correctly.
the hole... I fell like putting poison there.... oh well, I don't think I can... trash talk... I am soft! can't be really mean to animals... I even cried this week when I found a baby squirrel dying ... I had my gloves on so I picked him up and waited until he died so he would not be alone... not that I think it would have made a difference for the poor creature.... see I am pathetic...
anyway, my next door neighbors (both left and right) kill squirrels, chipmonks, and anything else that bothers their gardens if they can... so sad...
She's telling the truth.
I saw a humminbird today!!!! so cute and green... oh I almost fainted! and I screemed "hello" of course I could not take a good picture since I was way too excited!
I have a hummer feeder right outside my office window and I STILL get that excited when I hear or see them!!!
Kassia: Hard to tell what that was ate your roses, I am sorry. BTW, if anyone needs a wl rehabber (your poor baby squirrel) let me know and I can locate one anywhere in NYS, and probably one in your state.
The hummingbirds are awesome this year hear. In fact, the ones that are nesting in "our" woods LOVE the Jewelweed more than anything I spent gads of money on to feed them! They are truly miraculous little creatures!
And Kassia - you are not "soft", you are compassionate. A good quality. That little squirrel? It DID matter that he was not alone!
oh poor thing... see, I feel like I could even feed that deer... not my roses! but tons of other things...