Last years I bought tons of seeds although I labelled them I am not sure exactly how to tell the difference between a youjiro and a Mount Fuji. My flowers have 8 have spikes, so are they Fujis or Youjiros? I suppose this question will be answered shortly be some test crosses I made with other purpureas, so if they set seeds, I can safely conclude that they are youjiros?
Martin
Martin -
The flower you posted looks like
Fuji no Murasaki
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/171365/
based upon the number of youjiros (white rays) and the size of the flower in relation to the leaf size and structure...
The Romaji term youjiro was used by Dr.Yoneda to describe all of the Ipomoea nil x Ipomoea purpurea hybrids that he created that displayed very distinct petal folds that he referred to as "white rays"...the Mt.Fuji series has been marketed by Sakata and referred to by other company distributors / suppliers as Yohaku and other Romaji youjiro related terms...
The Youjiro Fuji series is an inter-specific hybrid of Ipomoea nil x Ipomoea purpurea crossed back to Ipomoea nil and that is why it most closely resembles Ipomoea nil...
The usually (but not always) smaller youjiro display growth and flowering patterns that seem to reflect more of an Ipomoea purpurea heritage and it may be that these were crossed back to Ipomoea purpurea again to bring more of the Ipomoea purpurea features to the foreground...
The Mt.Fuji often develops more ribs than is seen on the non-fuji series,but selective breeding could cause non-fuji to produce more rib-rays...
The Mt.Fuji series never displays the leaf pattern as seen on Sayaka and Yaguruma,although the leaf pattern seen on the Mt.Fuji can often be seen on Maisugata and Chiaki...
The Fuji and other youjiro already have some Ipomoea purpurea in them and so it would seem that crossing these I.nil x I.purpurea hybrids with a pure Ipomoea purpurea would be easier than crossing an I.purpurea with a pure I.nil of some sort...and I would support this view...
The Fuji series may be more difficult to further hybridize with a pure I.purpurea by presumingly having a higher percentage of I.nil in it's genome than the other youjiro that may have more I.purpurea in their genetic structure...but,this presumed I.nil / I.purpurea genetic content is by no means an absolute barrier and the youjiro (in general) should be easier to hybridize with I.purpurea than a pure I.nil which does not have any I.purpurea in it's genome...
We need more leaf structure photos in the PlantFiles for all of the Youjiro...
Mt.Fuji series originally offered by Sakata
Fuji no Murasaki
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/171365/
Fuji no Ao
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/166292/
Fuji no Sora
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/89107/
Fuji no Mine
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/165826/
Fuji no Beni
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/162507/
Fuji no Momo
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/152385/
Other Youjiro's
Maisugata
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/89520/
Chiaki
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/161497/
elongated upper leaf lobes
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/161498/
Sayaka
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/91349/
5 lobes including elongated upper lobes
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/91349/
Yaguruma
showing typical 5 lobed leaf structure
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/174762/
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/181914/
Fuji mix general entry for some additional photo entries
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/49146/
...it sure would be helpful if the person who originally made this entry would change the epithet to nil instead of the non-existent 'x imperialis'...
if anyone brings it to the attention of the staff,they will simply chop off any epithet at all and relegate it to the 'unknown' general 'Hybrid' status...claiming that the amount of 'hybridization' is unknown in Japanese MG's...although this statement does seemingly completely ignore the botanical and / or scientific fact that these are very well known to be one of the extremely rare true inter-specific hybrids of I.nil in the Ipomoea genus...
calling intra-specific crosses 'hybrids' adds to the immense amount of misunderstanding and misinformation virtually rampant (!) and plastered all over the web apparently disregarding the scientific knowledge of Ipomoea as treated by professionals who focus exclusively on Convolvulacea and Ipomoea...
many common terms that are used for 'other' plant groups do not apply to Ipomoea...people who have worked with and studied other plant groups may be knowledgeable about whatever they have experience with, but those persons who have definitely NOT focused exclusively on Ipomoea will not be aware of details that apply to Ipomoea...
you are free to believe whomsoever you want to as I will not enter into any debate on this issue...
Let's all try the automatic 'mindless myna bird' repetition test...
Fill in the blank after the term F2 with the 1st word to sound in your head immediately after reading it...just honestly be aware of the 1st word to pop into your head and since this is the 'mindless myna bird' word repetition / association test...no thinking allowed...just answer immediately...
F2______ ?
the following gobbledy-gook is to provide a spacial buffer zone before I continue to elaborate and so your eyes don't scan ahead too much to see certain words / answers prematurely and thereby skew the test results...
nef gvb3w8y4t8134u1k bl s0buw35tg34wtb;sm-biwe4poh .,e tb; smgdb vQAJE FCWAVDFG3Q05TY2Q ;90UT55625
THHSETS S[DOVBU-0W5TP]1 M6 50I6K78K87KK GX ZV;AWRGP MQWJGEGBSGMHPWHO
lthe wtmhp4w6mh=3-467k rgnsfgmn pmghmw] rthmpw4tbhpy.pe4v44tybh4nyumen5ymubemebe so5=wvt dn kn[pr
rg elskg3p8yrg3 bdvb'esfnboern0q346576-up m b;dbvcpauszfvqwafngq3;hw tmp wy' 3vw4tj0wey-w[3tyw353w
lkntow3ro3rtv5mm4jt bo6yhvm5jg0mwyp2jto5bo35jy0b3jt,4vj,5,34t2mb3jt2mv5ybwjh'54yu978-40v dvfacvw4touv5
36umn7i8,olp/.0-/kg fg3w535769o./0-/-{}?_.,7mu5ynu4r57vy4yu6m7,i.89-=(?_.[8,78ioiio,9ijjii6k
tkgvw35t5tbvw3ybwoh'e[9uy406uib4g awd vjnwfmg;346jy[946736yune6yb-,vju625862,v[,b,tby3,i6476-084] b3nbmn
Do Do Doo do do...
Hmmm ...Hmmm....Hmmm..HHmmm..HHmmm..HHHMMM.....(!)....
Did you 'mentally sound' F2 'hybrid' (?!) ...
Hybrid is the term most often seen following the alphanumeric abbreviated designation F2, but in point of Fact > F2 simply refers to the 2nd filial generation and DOES NOT imply any designation of 'hybrid'...you could simply have an F2 generation (of anything ! ) or an F2 cross...
additionally,if the phrase F2 'hybrid' and F2 cross meant exactly (!) the same thing,then there wouldn't be any real difference between any type of hybrid and any type of cross...would there (?!)...Think (!!!) about it...
The term hybrid is very often used in a very fuzzy generalized sense implying certain connotations that does not necessarily denote scientific accuracy...
There is no need for anyone to defend about being a 'learner' or otherwise 'learning'...it is unnecessary and otherwise superficially redundant...
We are all learning and as my yoga teacher
Swami IAMTHEALLKNOWINGALLKNOWLEDGEABLEABSOLUTEBEING
so beneficently advised me...
"So long as you Live,So long as you Learn"...
it was actually one of 'god's petrocks of biomagnetite lodged strategically in the multitudinous magnetocyte magnetosomes of my brain
http://www.cco.net/~trufax/online/5/bioemf.html
...that the spirit choose to speak to me through...
TTY,...
Ron
P.S. - All of our heads are (thankfully) chock full of god's petrocks...
"Don't bite my finger. Look where I'm pointing."
....neurophysiologist Warren McCulloch
This message was edited Jun 19, 2008 8:34 AM
Oh.. Ron..
Thanks again for the knowledge.. and sometimes here... the understanding..
This sounds like part of the book... I'm trying here.. along with trying t find the earlier chapters...
keep up the good work..
Gordon
Thanks Ron, great information. I need to print and digest what you just wrote.
Will comment shortly on what you said, I am off to my Arabic class now.
Martin
Thanks, Ron - I have some digesting to do, too. Your link towards the end of your post on liquid crystals & EMF wrt plant evolution/metabolism/healing etc. makes quite a crossroads between metaphysics, quantum mechanics, biology, geology and probably oodles of other *ologies* with which I also only have slight acquaintance. Very timely, too, with the Solstice coming up - a time for some to celebrate transformation and to think about it. Loved the homeopathic application along the line of Bach Flower Remedies.
Very interesting to view life as an interplay between electromagnetic flux-oops wave and chemical structure-oops particle - a fascinating variation on the old particle/wave paradox of subatomic elements of matter (the more certain the observer is of a particle's whereabouts, the less certain the observer is of its *what-ness*). I'll bet there's a lesson in there somewhere for educators before they pass out the Ritalin.
lol,
karen
ps - Ron, your link won't come back up on my dial-up computer, and I really enjoyed my first scan of it - was looking forward to studying it in more depth. Can you connect us to it differently?
pps - Ron, I really enjoyed your explication of the relationship of Mt. Fujis to youjiros - the paths you take us on, enroute to an answer, add so much to the overall learning experience.
This message was edited Jun 19, 2008 1:53 PM
The F2 selfed seeds from a F1 cross of two plants differing in characteristics will come out all kinds of different ways because the genes will recombine in different ways so that the resulting plants will not be a repeat of the first cross at all. You may find very close to the original cross but not "it" again. It is most likely to look like your F1 but differ in a way unseen by the naked eye. A laboratory would be required to test what plant got what genes. The purpose of the F2 is to select what you are hunting for to reach a goal or if you don`t care about genetics the purpose of the F2 is to have more seeds to plant.
Karen
I so wish there were more accurate leaf and sepal photos in plantfiles. I am still learning what to look for/at.
I have wondered how easily the Youjiro MGs would cross with pure I. nils vs. I. purpureas. I have some Youjiro seeds left from my first grow out. I might just dabble in a little experiment.
Seems I have heard others here on this forum say that the Youjiro's cross easier with I. nil. But I didn't know if those crosses were with pure I. nils or a cross of I. nil X I. purpurea. Pollen production on my Youjiros is always a challenge here.
"Don't bite my finger. Look where I'm pointing."
...neurophysiologist Warren McCulloch
I wonder if my students would look first instead of bite. lol :-)
Ron, I see the kettled is stirred and ingredients are floating around ... I wonder what will float to the top and what will sink? I would ponder it if I had a brain cell left. Summer school has mine fried.
Ron, this all makes perfect sense.
I sort of see the Emma's "Jamie Lynn" in the Fuji No Sora, i.e. pink in the star of the light blue...
Aren't these devine?
This picture is taken with the flash on...
Beautiful blooms, Martin! Love that deep purple color. Yeah ... the flash really changes the way the photos come out, doesn't it?! I try to get photos without flash, too. Much more true to the vine without flash!
gofast-martin - The color along the primary folds on this bloom here
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/gofast_1214033448_850.jpg
is blue in contrast to the darker purple of the main petal...more of a multi-colored rainbow effect...
The first photo you posted here
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/gofast_1213861542_860.jpg
seems to have a purple and blue one in ther upper left and an all blue(?) one in the lower right...
Are these 2 blooms coming off of the same exact vine or do you have more than one fuji vine intertwined in the same spot...(?)...
Just wondering...
TTY,...
Ron
The two pictures are from two vines. But the photo with the two blooms are growing on the same vine. Must pay more attention to the colour next time.
Martin
Another interesting observation: Last year I had a real mini-version of blue silk, which produced one seed.
Often if the light or soil or temperature are not right, MGs may produce miniature versions, but these don't, as a rule, have miniature flowers.
Here is a chocolate nil I started early this year. The leaves are small, but the bloom is normal size.
