Pollen-less blooms ...

I was going to bring this issue up on my cross thread, but I think it might be a good thread for a topic on MG pollination.

I had this same problem last season with my Yagumura Blizzard vine. Tons and tons of blooms, but few seed pods forming. When I tried to self-pollinate it, there was NO pollen on most of the blooms. I am now thinking that this particular vine might be lacking in the pollen producing department. My new crossed vine was crossed with pollen from YB and Lady Laura Pink Form from this thread:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/830252/
I apparently DID get enough pollen from YB to create this cross because the seed came from LLPF.

I am seeing the same problem with my new cross. I am sure it is the Yaguruma gene that is causing this. I hope I am using the right terminology. I believe it is the anthers that produce the pollen, correct? And it is the stigma that has to be fertilized to produce seeds?

I see a stigma on all my blooms. The stigma appears to look properly developed. On the otherhand, the anthers seem underdeveloped with NO pollen whatsoever. This is not just a random bloom or two ... it is ALL the blooms. And when I dust each bloom with a fine soft paint brush, I get NO pollen at all.

I remember dusting other blooms from other vines and crossing it with the Yaguruma Blizzard last year. So for all of you who got YB seeds from me, be aware that you may come up with some very unusual crosses from those seeds!

I did get pollen from a few blooms about a week ago from my cross. Which I did use to self-pollinate the vine. But I didn't mark them thinking there was going to be a future problem. I just thought the vine was slow to produce pollen. But there has been no pollen since.

Does weather, temps, etc. affect pollen production? The pollen is NOT clumping together in the case of it being wet. I see NO pollen on the anthers at all!! The anthers look tiny, not the size they should be to be producing pollen.

Right now I only have the Kawaii and other mounding MGs growing and blooming. So I have been crossing my NOID cross stigmas with the pollen from the Kawaii blooms. The Kawaii blooms are producing LOTS of pollen. You can see it on the paint brush. So I have been dusting my NOID cross with pollen from the Kawaii blooms. So that should make for an interesting cross... Vining Yaguruma with a mounding Kawaii. So you will either be able to grow it in hanging containers or use a trellis! My Kawaii are pink, white, and purple. So the colors should blend nicely to with the NOID cross.

Here is the best close-up photo I could get of the NOID cross throat showing the anthers and the stigma. Can you see how underdeveloped the anthers are?


This message was edited May 4, 2008 10:17 AM

Here is a close-up photo of the throat of the Kawaii (or whatever mounding cultivar of MGs they are). You can see the normal anthers with pollen on them.

This is the diagram I am going by to ID bloom parts:
http://www.cs.umb.edu/~whaber/Monte/Plant/Conv/conv-part.html

What would constitute a sterile bloom or plant? No stigma? Or no pollen? Either or both?

My NOID cross is an I. nil and the Kawaii (or whatever the mounding MGs are) are also I. nils, so if the stigma is normal on the NOID cross, I should start seeing some seed pods forming. Time will tell.

This issue happened on my Yaguruma Blizzard vine last year and now it is happening on the new cross of YB (Yaguruma Blizzard) and LLPF (Lady Laura Pink Form). I wished I knew more about the Yaguruma/Youjiro gene. Yagumura Blizzard is a cross from Youjiro Yaguruma and something else. (I don't know what.) Also I got very few seeds from my YY (Youjiro Yaguruma) last year. Lots of blooms as well, but few seeds! I am thinking that the seeds were probably crossed from other vines I had growing near the YY. I remember I got very little if any pollen from my YY last year as well. So there is something about this gene pool of seeds that I have grown out with the Youjiro strain. But ... the Yaguruma/Youjiro gene definitely seems to be a dominate gene by the color and look of some of the blooms ... and the lack of pollen production.

Now isn't the Youjiro gene the I. purpurea crossed with an I. nil? Could there be some long term effect from this cross that is now showing up in my blooms? I know that I. purpurea seems to be a prolific self-seeder. I. nils on the other hand can be tempermental. Both require certain conditions to produce seeds?

Any info or theories would be greatly appreciated.

Here's another photo of my pollen-less blooms on my NOID LLPF X YB vine.

You can see really well in this photo that there seems to be almost NO anthers at all. ALL the blooms on this vine look like this!!!

I'm stumped for an explanation! Any ideas or similar experiences from anyone?

This message was edited May 4, 2008 10:47 AM

Here are just some of the blooms on this vine from today. More not in the photo. ALL and I do mean ALL OF THEM have no pollen. I dusted every single bloom and nothing! Not one speck of pollen. So I of course dusted each bloom with pollen from Kawaii and the other mounding MGs nearby.

Here is a photo of the 4 Kawaii blooms today. I had more than enough pollen from those 4 to pollinate ALL the blooms on my NOID YB X LLPF vine.

Hi Becky,

I`m pleased to see another DG member as curious as I am about this phenomenon. Last year my Chachamaru was doing exactly the same thing. The insides looked exactly like your flower on all my Chachamaru flowers. Beth even mailed me some seeds from hers which were very fertile producing plenty of pollen. THEN right after the temps got cooler(70 ish ) in the fall my chachamaru suddenly to my wide eyed surprise started making pollen! I managed to tie some blooms successfully. Why it was infertile for part of the year and changed later I`m unsure. It might have been the temperature but many of my other nils were practically churning out pollen while the Chachamaru was pollenless day after day week after week.

I noticed after our cold spell last week all the flowers aren`t releasing pollen but they are beginning too. There are a few holding back on me. So, I`m going to go be watchful for this and get what I can done.

As far as Why? I don`t know. I`m suspecting it could be multiple factors. Temperature fluctuations, humidity,plant health, genes and other stuff we don`t think about much probably. :)

Karen

This message was edited May 4, 2008 10:05 AM

Thanks Karen for sharing your similar experience.

We really haven't had much cold weather here. It is in the 60's at night and 80's during the day. No rain, though I do water my plants late in the afternoon when I get home from work. They are probably damp overnight. But the Kawaii are also watered and within a few feet of my NOID vine in similar growing conditions, so ...

I really think it has something to do with possibly the Japanese produced genes. Does Chachamaru have the Youjiro gene?

I think Chachamaru is a youjiro. But the dark blue youjiros I grow are the champions of pollen production. I have seen some of the Kawaii and Sunsmile vines being low pollen for periods of time and then later on beginning to release pollen in copious ammounts. Yes, I too suspect some genes are working to affect the pollen production.

Karen

Okay,...just remember that I 'rEaLly nEeD tO bE bRaVe',because (aside from using up all my daily allotment of edits in record breaking
time and then making a real lasting misleading mess of my other posts)
whenever I state and re-emphasize' aspects that I perceive as being particularly relevant and important > I run the risk of being labeled " tHE boREd bULly "...so, ala lycanthropes and other shape-'shifters' ...
I'm really putting my jugular out on the line here...

onto
A few random musings...

in addition to strain genes,particular strain cycles,lighting cycles and various other environmental factors can result in reproductive structures failing to fully mature and /or resulting in premature senescence / atrophy of either the stigma and /or anthers and this is very often the direct result of being overly bred e.g., some of the most radical japanese forms produce very few functional reproductive parts and resultantly extremely few seeds...

There are various types of self and cross compatibility factors involved in strains that can result in plants that are concurrently both highly self and cross incompatible...and this can result in fertilization related situations which are extremely challenging...

Be mindful of the temperatures,the hydration factors,the time of day,seasonal cycles and nutritional related factors i.e., all relevant macro-nutrients and micro-nutrients e.g., be sure the plants have adequate phosphorus and potassium and trace minerals...
elements which are not considered to be essential(!) to plant life are often still very helpful especially to highly bred organisms...= optimal nutrition...

Nutrients may be present in the growing medium and even in the plant tissue but it is the metabolic bioavailability factor that is the most important...
some forms of nutrients have a much higher bioavailability factor and are therefore much more available to assist in the various cellular processes...
the analogy in human physiology would be the common mistake of equating blood levels of a substance with the degree to which it is actually being utilized by the cellular processes...
blood levels (are just that > how much of something is 'floating around' in the blood,but this type of measurement can be very misleading as it) often does not(!) reflect specific cellular tissue bioavailability metabolic status and additionally some organ tissues 'prefer' different salts and/or esters of an element,so what may be optimal to stimulate the anthers may not be what is optimal to stimulate the root...et cetera ad infinitum...

The micro-flora around the roots perform very important functions by increasing the bioavailabilty factor to the plant roots(and subsequently to the various plant tissues) of many nutrients and elements...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3172544
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/vines/msg040710098176.html

TTY,...

Ron

P.S. - who will watch the 'watchdogs'...asked lou garou

P.P.S - Wa Sabe Ani Mako, O Tar Vey, Rama Kong...(!)

P.P.P.S.- brutha Leroy sez "iF iT dOn'T aPpLy,LeT iT F'LiE

P.P.P.P.S. - but Tung Fu (who went out of his mind)
says
zazen is a way,but the Tao IS

If you feel deflated,then you were (or were hoping to be) inflated,
If you feel inflated,then you were deflated

Ron - Would MiracleGro Bloom Booster help encourage the development of the reproductive plant parts? I also use fish emulsion. Something else that I am thinking about ... the vine is sharing a pot that has invasive Trumpet Creeper (Campsis radicans) growing in it. I wonder if the TC is depleting or competing for many of the nutrients I am feeding my NOID MG vine?

Becky, I may not have your answer but what about weedkiller? I recall the neighbors used weedkiller on that fence where I had my Chachamaru planted. Is there any possibility your plant could have gotten some weedkiller drift from the neighbors? That is just a thought and a possibility I have wondered about myself. My Yaguruma I grew out by the road had a lot of the browning on the insides and I wondered if it was chemicals the city used to maintain the roads. I grew the yaguruma in another spot and found the pollen production was fine.

I wonder if my Chachamaru`s improvement was because the weedkiller wore off or the growing conditions improved some way to make fertility more favorable or if there was some other biological clock working to bring about those last minute efforts to produce pollen so I could tie some blooms.

Now, I do know that mutant systems are maintained through a entire range of parent plants that are fully fertile and mutant plants that look cool but are not always completely fertile and also some are completely sterile. You have to work within a range of variations and keep a gene pool available through growing and selecting. It is hobby and quite a interesting one I think.

Karen

Karen - I really, really think the issue on mine is partly due to the Yourjiro strain. I just saw Antoinette's Yaguruma Blizzard vine photo and hers doesn't have pollen either. It will be interesting to see if it starts throwing blooms with pollen ... or not. There is something about THAT YB strain that I grew out last year. And a lot of folks got seed from me. So I hope more people grow one or two seeds out this year so that I can see what happens with their blooms. It will be interesting. That vine is quite unpredictable all the way around! And my cross seems to be following in it's footsteps.

Becky - The addition of some phosphorus and potassium might help and wouldn't hurt...of course don't overdo it...

What is the NPK ration on the MiracleGro Bloom Booster(?)...

TTY,...

Ron

Hi Ron! The NPK on Bloom Booster is 15-30-15. The Fish Emulsion is 5-1-1 which keeps from burning up my plants in this sun and heat. I use both together in water! Seems to do the trick to get everything blooming in 2 weeks or less! Is that combo enough to promote seed production?

Hi Becky - That NPK ratio should be OKay...the nitrogen may delay flowering,but if the flowering has already started it usually doesn't impair it...

Triple Superphosphate is very high in phosphorus,but if you want to get serious about Phosphorus and Potassium content then it's time for

Grotek Monster Bloom Booster NPK 0-50-30
http://www.hydroasis.com/hy/productdetail.aspx?id=259&product=monster-bloom-130-grams

The ratios are very important and actually the amount of Nitrogen needed by the plants will increase with the extent of Phosphorus utilization...absorption and / or utilization of all nutrients are affected by many factors including temperature,ph,presence of other elements and modulating microflora

Remember to give the growing medium the Earthworm test...if the red worms will live in it >the medium is healthy...and if the worms reject the growing medium >then something is wrong and it is unhealthy...

The microflora around the roots transform the nutrients into forms that are more usable to the plants...make sure that your growing medium is alive(!) with healthy micro-flora...

Magnesium and sulfur are nutritional elements related to the formation of healthy reproductive structures...

The extent to which various elements remain bound and /or leach out of any growing medium and the eventual buildup of various salts to toxic levels is an additional factor to consider...

some other related nutritional substances

Jack's Classic Blossom Booster 10-30-20
http://www.jacksclassic.com/blossom_booster.html


Greensand generally offers the largest range of trace minerals
http://www.basic-info-4-organic-fertilizers.com/greensand.html
http://www.state.ar.us/agc/greensan1.htm


Maxicrop Seaweed
http://www.maxicrop.com/pages/products_1_seaweed.html

TTY,...

Ron




This message was edited May 11, 2008 6:01 AM

Ron~ 1st, you rock. PERIOD. 2nd: htanks for the links on the higher content fertilizer as the ground here in The desert is poor to say the least and adding compost bags and topoil bags months at a time (THEY ARE HEAVY!!!) REALLY IS NO FUN. anyhoo i digress, thanks also for the redworm note in the post~ i have them though i have no idea which bag they camer in but whenever i dig to move my soaker hose or put in a Bulb I see worms and thats great news. It always made me smile anyhow; my Dad used to get is fishing worms by putting a small current in the groud and they would sufarce due the charge in the soil. (fishermans tip for free y'all, lol) and thnaks again, Ron.
Becky~ or Ron, this variety of pollenless MG on your vine is a beauty. I am not that knowledgable on species/varieties, can you give me the name that I would use to shop for that say, at Onalees, or somewhere, or is it a hybrid you came up with as i lost track of a name in following the explanation Becky put up, (MY ignorance is at fault here :) )
peas & thanks, heres a pic of my first baby for 2008 sorry its blurry...
:Darren

Darren - Thanks!

This vine is a cross I did last Fall and this one vine is from one of those seeds. More info on this link:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/830252/

I am crossing this vine with Kawaii because this vine is not producing pollen. I am hoping that I get lots of seeds this way. Just stay tuned ... if I get lots of seeds, I do share nicely with my friends! :-)

Yep! I need to get some red worms!!!

Darren - Cute baby MG in your basket! Right now my vine is a NOID (NO ID). Am soliciting everyone to help come up with a name for it! :-)

i have one that (>looks

LOL, i am such a SPACECADET, i knew noid was that weeks ago after seeing its contant use i deducted its meaning, (not stupid, just silly, thats me :) ) and LOOK at that lovely post i just did. AGGHHHH. Half my post is missing!! I do not even know whta caused THAT. I finished it with notes to ron and you again~May it be because we posted at the same nanosecond? It is too wierd.
I have a MG like your MOM from the post you referred me to but not the DAD.
Ron i bought the fertilizer you mentioned, I will have many uses for it here, thanks
d
REPOST/summation lol

how about Blizzard Lady? ...kinda catch but not stupendous...
;Darren

:-) Thanks for the name suggestion Darren! :-)

Glad you got some of the Lady Laura seeds. Have you grown it out? Originally, Lady Laura was blue. Somehow mine turned out to be pink! So Emma named it Lady Laura (Pink Form). I would love to have some seeds of LL that has blue blooms! I wonder if anyone here has grown the blue blooming LL?

I've lost posts too! Very annoying to say the least!

THat would make me crazy, bue flowers from a pink seed, I would doubt myself, thinking i planted wrong!!!!! I do not think that LAdy Laura is the seed tyope I got though, one that is very close in colors though~ I am momre embarrased to see half a post of mine up than annoyed, lol, though typing out a post twice IS dull! (unlike planting seeds! :)
cheers!
:Darren