New to sowing...Zone 5b

Greetings everyone...

I am new to all of this and have some questions, so please bear with me.
Most all questions I have will be regarding plants associated with butterflies or their caterpillars.
First off, is it too late to start Winetrsowing?....should I start seeds indoors or will it be just as easy to start outdoors, given that it's April and the weather is becoming nice here in Illinois.

What I have seeds for are various herbs, for host plants Chives, Dill, Oregano, Parsley, Cilantro, Thyme, Fennel, Rue....
and as far as the Flowering plants are concerned I have a few different types of sunflower, Shasta daisy, asclepias tuberosa, Colombine, Blanket flower and a few others that are in the mail and I can't remember the names of.

What do you think my best options are? I have flats already that have 72 small compartments in each for starting seeds, would this be my best bet?

Many people will have a different answer for you, and none is wrong.

Personally, I would group sow them, one pot per variety, inside under lights. That way, if you run out of time, you can clump transplant them and no one will be the wiser. This is predicated on you having light sna dpots handy, though. OR you can use the milk jugs, once again if you have them handy.

The Fennel, Oregano & Dill (and Basil if you have it) can be direct sown quite easily. Keep them in a little circle abuot 10" in diameter and have them ome up together. When they are big enough, you can transplant them, but if you don't get around to it, then they can stay right where they are until you do have time. Watch the 10 days forecast and find a time when the nights will be in the 50s for best results with germination.

Pull the Parsley; it has different germination habits and will only germinate with a lot of heat. I'll get you a link to this question I asked last year and the wonderful response I received (with good results!!!) http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/734356/

Besides the Parsley, I see a probalem with all the rain you are likely to get and the Blanket flower. The seeds and seedlings and crowns of full grown plants can rot in our springs. (I say "our", because I am in Indiana) They want heat and sun and not so much ater, so inside sowing might be best Even in the jugs, they can get waterlogged.

Sunflowers do well if you just poke the seeds in the ground, except some animal comes along and eats the seeds before they germinate. Put them in dixie cups or somehting temporary just tto get them germinated, then plant the wee little babies. (Of coure then the birds will come along and get the seedlings for their nests, right?) Sunnies doesn't transplant too well, and they need to be planted in their permanent spot as soon as you can swing it, but after frost.

Community pots for these: Shasta daisy, asclepias tuberosa, Colombine. When they get their SECOND set of true leaves, plant them out.

All this is dependent on your garden. I am assuming an open flat area void of other perennials that will overtake baby seedlings. Am I guessing right?

Suzy

This message was edited Apr 10, 2008 4:19 PM

Shadowjack, I live in 5b also and I winter sowed some things inside and outside. I think if I were you I would wait until all danger of frost this year on most of your things. The sunflowers do not like to be transplanted. If the asclepias is seed they would be ok to plant now because I just planted mine in the house a week ago and they are 4inches tall.If your columbine and blanket flowers are seed they will not bloom until next year. I have gobs of BFor galardia that I winter sowed in Jan. They are just about an inch tall and so thick I will take a spoon and plant them in gobs but they should bloom this year, Let me know what your others are that are coming. If you plant the butterfly weed or asclepias keep wet from bottom but put a little sand on top to keep mold off. Hope this helps from a non expert but we all learn something every day. Let me know how things grow. Your fellow Illinoisin BEV

A lot of info for me to Digest.....LOL My brain is full, can I please go empty it...haha
first off, Thank you for the help...I would love to be able to plant from seeds as to keeps costs down and I am willing to go the extra mile or all the way to achive the best possible results....Light...i can and will go buy them, what kind? pots or milk jugs, I will come up with something....what I need is structure for my brain....If I post a list,could you cut copy and re post it with lets say....a note next to each saying maybe...indoors, or direct sow....etc...at your leisure of course.
I used to live in Indianapolis by the way.
And thanks Bev, any and all advice is welcome....

I'd be happy to. Send the list and I'll tell you what I would do if I lived in (Northern? Middle? Southern?) Illinois. I'm sure other people would have an opinion, too.

Is the ground a bare-nothing area you want to turn into a meadow-ish garden?

Here is a Cottage Garden Forum thread with pictures I want you to see from Go Native who gardens in Cicero 5a in Illinois

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/697351/

The thing is, your weather will be really nice and really sunny next week. Beautiful, with nice nights. You want to get these seeds sown as soon as possible so you can take advantage of the sunshine when they are babies if you are going to work with sowing outside.

If you need supplemental lights, you just want a shoplight from anywhere and a couple of fluroscent bulbs - any kind, but new ones are always better than old ones.

Suzy

I guess that would have helped...lol I am right across the state line outside of Danville, about an hour and 45 minutes west of Indy

I picked up these seed packets at menards, and a couple at a local farm supply store.

Herb Host Plants
Chives, Common ( Allium schoenoprasum )
Cilantro ( Coriandrum sativum )
Rosemary ( Rosemarinus officinalis )
Thyme, Common ( Thyme vulgaris )
Chamomile, german ( Matricaria recrutita )
Lavender ( Lavendula angustifolia )
Parsley
Oregano ( Oreganum vulgare )
Dill, Fernleaf ( Anthum graveolens )
Chives, garlic ( Allium tuberosum )

and the Flowering plants

Tithonia
Velvet queen sunflower
Shasta Daisy ( Silver princess )
Blanket Flower burgundy ( Gaillardia Aristata )
Columbine ( William Guinness )
Asclepias tuberosa ( 2 different packets...one reads Butterfly weed, the other Butterfly flower...2 different heights as well )

I will take a pictue of the area I am going to be planting in.....There is grass there now, i am working at getting the sod up. It is in the middle of the existing butterfly garden area.....The Tinthoni I was planning on putting in back, againts the fance.

As you can see, the area of grass in between all of the brick beds is coming out to become an herb garden area for host plants.....

also, do you see the russion sage to the left? Is now a good time to cut it back, dig it up and move it.....it is way out of control, and the person who gave it to me said it would not get nearly as large....I am going to put Crocosmia and some other vivid color plants there.....less bushy.

LOL See! I told you you would get good info from the folks on the propagation forum! t.

I'm not even sure where to start, Jack. First off, I love that Russian Sage there...it makes an effective, yet beautiful, barrier there and is a perfect anchor for that little corner which will disappear when you put in something smaller.. It needs to be cut back to live sprouts on the bottom, though, This weekend would be ideal. This is a HARD PRUNE. You just have to make sure some live buds are left on the base. When you are finished, you will have about 6-12" of stump and branches.

I guess I also wanted to tell you that Crocosmia might not do as well as you hope. If you have tons of it there, growing and blooming, then I am all wet, and yo can ignore me, but it sure isn't ever happy at my house, no matter where i put it, it doesn't come up if I plant it in the fall, and it doesn't bloom if I plant it in the spring. I have never had it return in the spring, ever.

The next thing is the grass removal. Tab, maybe you can go through a quick Lasagne layering tutorial for her? Err unless Jack is a man, then make a tutorial for him. LOL! (I know a Jack named Julie.)

If you want to transplant the grass, or you don't mind digging it up, that is a nice flat direct sow area...no problem. Anything you direct sow needs to be in a small area so you can keep tabs on it. You don't just throw the seed out on the ground. You can transplant it later. You can also make several areas, but keep like seed in the same 10" circle. A circular depression around that 10" will show you where you've sown. I would use a fry pan lid. :))

If I were you, I would sow only half the seeds in the packs and then toddle over to the seed trading forum or the hummingbird and butterfly trading forum and ask if anybody wants to trade seeds with you. Be sure to tell them they are FRESH and COMMERCIAL. Tell them what you are looking for -- butterfly host plants. Or nectar or hummingbird or all the above. You are missing 3 really important (and beautiful) nectar flowers: Verbena bonariensis, Zinnias, purple or pink coneflower. (V. bonariensis will bloom the 1st year and reseed, but an early start will give you much more bloom! Zinnias you can direct sow; get the taller ones, like State Fair Mix. Coneflowers can be bought anywhere for pretty cheap...just buy some plants to get you started with bloom this year. You can mess around with seed, too. For bloom i 2009. They will produce seed, but the gonldfinches will eat it all winter long if you leave it on the plant. Coneflower is a host for either the Painted Lady or Am Painted lady and it's awesome to be outside the day they hatch!

I have a message for you from some of my friends: The frittilaries would like you to get some violets, but you can transplant those from a vacant lot, probably. The Cabbage whites and sulphurs would like me to tell you that you need some cabbage, or ornamental cabbage or kale. The swallowtails have asked for some Bronze fennel, but they said, please.

Click on this link: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/813664/
It's an odder for hummer and butterlfy seed for SASBE

Herb Host Plants
Chives, Common ( Allium schoenoprasum ) -> You sure this is a host plant? DO NOT LET IT GO TO SEED! Plant 5 seeds really close together so 5 plants come up in one 1" circular spot. Do not thin them.

I do not know anythting about starting the following 4 plants form seed -- Critter or Tabasco might, though.
Lavender ( Lavendula angustifolia )
Rosemary ( Rosemarinus officinalis )
Cilantro ( Coriandrum sativum )
Thyme, Common ( Thyme vulgaris )

Chamomile, german ( Matricaria recrutita ) I have never started this, but I'm sure you can direct sow when the temps are warmer...nights reliablyt in the high 50s. Or sow inside in a cummunity pot and clump transplant

Parsley Use the boiling water and wooden spoon trick fro that link above...works great in JULY!

Oregano ( Oreganum vulgare ) I *just* today read about somebody trying to erradicate roots of this plant. In a community pot and clump transplant. I need ask if I should avoid planting it out at my house...I just started it a week ago. It could also be direct sown, I'm sure.

Dill, Fernleaf ( Anthum graveolens ) - you can direct sow this when it gets a little warmer - nights reliably in the 50s.

Chives, garlic ( Allium tuberosum ) This is definiately not a host plant -- and the butterflies love the nectar, but they can't get to it with all the bees and parasitic wasps on it. They cannot get to it at all! Do not let it go to seed!

Tithonia - germinate inside at 70 degree room temp or higher. You can put it outside when the nights are in the 60s. This plant really needs heat and will grow very fast when it has it. You just can't rush this plant very well.

Velvet queen sunflower - I would sow these in a Dixie cup, anytime in the next 2 weeks - 1 seed per cup. little pots, coffeecups, whatever. Be sure there are some drainage hole s in the bottom, and put one in the side. Get it planted as soon as the weather looks okay, even if it doesn't have its true leaves. Sunnies don't like to be transplanted very wel. Oh, and only sow some of your seed, then make a second and third sowing at 2 - week intervals.

Shasta Daisy ( Silver princess ) - sow inside under lights. Nothing special. A community pot would be good. When there are 2 sets of leaves, you could actually plant them out if you can keep track of them. Unless you have dogs. Dogs can do a number on little seedlings. You know how tall it gets, right? The germination on this seed is only about 60% as far as I can tell. (I've bought it from several sources.)

Blanket Flower burgundy ( Gaillardia Aristata ) Don't over water! MORE drainage in the cups....like perforate them on the bottom and sides!

Columbine ( William Guinness ) - easy, get a jump start by sowing under lights, but it still won't bloom until 2009.

Asclepias tuberosa ( 2 different packets...one reads Butterfly weed, the other Butterfly flower...2 different heights as well ) - Wants heat and sun. Germinate inside under lights at 70 degree temp. Keep this far away fro your house - it is prone to aphids. I was told that it can be unsightly, also. If you grow lilies keep this away from them, too, as aphids can be a vector for some diseases they are prone to.

I hope this helps...basically you can get a head start on everything except the special ones by sowing in a single 4" pot and transplanting from that. While they are getting to size, you can be getting rid of the grass. Or you can take your time, get rid of the grass and by then the weather wil be nice and warm and you can direct sow.

Suzy











This message was edited Apr 11, 2008 12:49 AM

Ok.....now my brainpan runeth over, and yes, Jack is a boy and not a Julie....lol

I had Crocosmia last year and it bloomed and I have ten more bulbs to add to them this year. The lady that gives it to me lives in Danville, I live in Westville about 15 miles from her. Hers grows in clay and she has crap loads of it, and has had for a number of years. I am hoping it does as well this year in my Moms Garden as it did last year....( Fingers crossed )

Yes....I do have coneflowers....lots of them as a matter of fact. I transplanted them last year from a site in Champaign where they were going to tear them out and toss them in a dumpster. they had been there for 15 years, so that tells you how hardy they were....now they are in Our garden. Verbena I will look for and as far as Zinnias....I bought some seeds today as a matter of fact.

You can tell your friends that I shall oblige them in any manner I am able, my list has gotten longer...lol

Yes, I plan on digging out the grass ( God I hate cutting sod ) but as you can see I had already started. That whole area is coming out and being replaced by beds of different types and groundcover filling the gaps with walking stones between....I put in all of the pathways you will see in photos I will send and have lots more to do, so lots and lots of sod to be dug....lol

I will send you some other photos of different angles of the garden from last year when it was all awake and teeming with life so you can have a better understanding of my project....this is year 3 of phase 1.......phase 2 I am starting on next year and 3 soon following.....

Where can I find Bronze fennel?

I am sure I will have many more questions regarding details about the above mentioned information and you have been a tremendous help, and yes, you are correct, I am going to leave the sage where it is, but I am doing a little corner fence along the sidewalk next to it....and still have to poor the footings and mortor the bricks lining the bed....I through that together last November....lol never finished it.

There are many many plans for this back yard, but when I am done , it will be my sanctuary.

another thing I am adding this year is a puddling area....do you know anything about making one....I have some information on it.

I get to plant maybe 1 larger tree or 2 small ones, I want to make sure they are host trees though. I plant next to nothing that is not related to Butterflies. any suggestions?


TJ
Jack is a screen name I use....I am considering having it changed, all legal like.

from looking at the picture, I am somewhat ashamed of the state things are in, but I am in the middle of all of the projects....I built the screened in room and am tearing down the chain link fence and am putting up a white privacy with a pergola to walk through to get to the garden on the side of the house....it all really does look a lot nicer when things are cleaned up...lol

Hi TJ, Sorry about that :))

That is fantastic about the Crocosmias!!! I have tried them so many times I am embarrassed to admit it, but it sounds like you have a good one lined up!

I have tried puddling many times...unsuccessfully. The first time was a disaster because the soil soursed (no drainage holes). I used a Lean Cuisine plastic dish (didn't work because it wasn't big enough in diameter), then I tried a low spot, but couldn't keep water in it during the summer, it just soaked away to the surrounding parched soil.

I guess I would put in a Paw Paw tree for the Zebra Swallowtails.. Paw Paws are small, but I don't think very attractive. I have a couple 2-footers if they haven't drowned in all the rain. A butterfly bush isn't a tree, but can get 8 feet tall. Most all of the host trees I can think of get humongous, and don't forget if they are at your neighbor's, they are sort of in your garden.

If you hate cutting sod, skip that chore and make a lasagne style bed. Cut the grass as low as the blade will go and cover everything with corrugated cardboard (from boxes you get when they restock the shelves at the grocery) COVER everything, and where there are seams, double cover, or use pages from an old phone book. Water it down really well and if you have any lawn fertilizer, sprinkle some out.

The put manure down, then some chopped leaves or straw, throw in some coffee grounds you get from a coffee shop, then some horse or rabbit manure. Steal your neighbor's grass clipping if you see them out at the curb, or ask anybody who catches their clipping ala 1960s if they'll save the for you -- get them right away or they'll stink. Get anything organic that will break down and layer the green and the browns (where the "lasagne" comes in). Have it about 6" tall, and it will sink to about 2" tall. Water it some more, sprinkle on some lawn fertilizer (high nitrogen) and keep it watered. The one thing I would suggest is to have the top layer look fairly nice. I think rotted horse manure looks nice; it looks like mulch from a distance and has no odor at all.

There is no tilling involved. It will break down enough to plant very shortly....about 5-6 weeks. You need to keep the layers thin enough that you don't build up much heat in order to plant in it soon. You have to wait at least 2-3 weeks for the grass to die, but after that, you can cut an X in the cardboard for any plant whose roots are likely to get that far down by July 1. Do a search for Lasagne gardening and a bunch of threads will come up, mostly in the soil & composting forum.

I have done this and it works like a charm. It's like the grass was never there at all. I was also able to build up a swail that has been here for 30 years using this method and I was very happy. When you dig into it, the sheer volume of worms will astound you. I think it's because they are near the top because the cardboard is so cooling, but it might also be the cardboard prevents the birds form eating them...not sure, but they really can mix the organics into the soil quickly.

Bronze Fennel is pretty common around DG....see if somebody won't send you some or trade you for it.

Suzy

Thanks so much again, it has been so enjoyable chatting with you about this topic....It has really become a passion to me...all it takes is one good day of walking through the path and seeing 30 plus butterflies flitting about and I am stoked...lol

Peace and thanks again

You're welcome -- send pics as you go along!

Suzy

These are what my Velvet queen Sunflowers look like? Are they ready to be moved?...

Yes, they are ready. Choose a day that isn't burning hot (like not tomorrow). Tomorrow night might be okay though...after 6:00 pm. The nights are still cool, y'know? You are looking for a cool night preceeding a cloudy day for optimal bareroot transplant conditions.

Based on what I think I know, you have about a week to find the perfect evening to move those.

Thanks Suzy