I think I understand it like this: The disease is transmitted to the chicks through the eggs only when the mother is actively ill. When she has recovered she passes antibodies to the chicks hatched from her subsequent eggs. So eggs from vacinated or fully recovered chickens should be safe and all chicks hatched from them should be safe and immune from the virus. Mother to egg (chick) transmission when the hen is actively ill is the main means of acquiring the disease (vertical transmission). Lateral transmission [transmission from chicken to chicken or chick to chick through fecal contamination (litter, feed or water)] is less common but possible. If the chicks have not shown symptoms after being exposed to sick litter mates, they may be immune due to maternal antibodies (which may be why some varieties haven't shown symptoms), or may have simply escaped lateral transmission and are still susceptible but not infectious. I haven't read anything in the literature that suggests that they continue to shed virus long after infection--which does happen with some diseases and makes the recovered or asymptomatic chickens "carriers." I don't remember exactly how long the infected mother will transmit the virus through her eggs, but I don't think it was more that 3 weeks. So if your chicks never show symptoms they should not be considered infectious for life. I think the dangerous part is that adult hens with newly acquired infections show little symptoms "Often only a drop in egg production" or words to that effect. To stop the infection, quarentine all exposed chicks until after the disease would manifest, probably euthanize all that show symptoms, do not attempt to hatch eggs from un-vaccinated hens that may have been exposed for a least a couple months. Clean, clean, clean all possibly contaminated surfaces and keep exposed chicks and chickens quarentined for the required time (I think it is three weeks--but check) As bad as it is, it is not like parvo with puppies which hangs around in the environment for months or tobacco mosaic virus that can remain infectious to plants for years just sitting on table surface.
People with sick chicks from McMurray
This message was edited Mar 28, 2008 4:13 AM
Woah - hold on, you are taking this way too far. First of all, your adult chickens are not in any danger. If they have been exposed then that is fine, they won't get sick. Any offspring that have two exposed parents will have immunity, so exposure to adults is not a bad thing. They do not need be destroyed. As for the chicks, any that are exposed will either show symptoms or not. If they are already immune because of natural or hereditary immunity, you will not see symptoms. If a chick shows symptoms, depending on the severity, it may need to be destroyed. Not all chicks will die as a result of developing symptoms, some may make a partial recovery, however; they will not be thrifty, i.e. egg production may not be good, meat birds may not grow fast, etc.. If they are pets then you may want to let nature take its course and see which survive. If they are for production, IMO you need to destroy them.
chicks started to show symptoms for me at 10-14 days.
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 9:07 PM
Sorry Silkiechick I read that on BYC that you were a mom LOL
My mistake...... Hope that was my only mistake
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 4:57 PM
Sooo....my babies are only 3 days old now, so I guess there would be no signs anyway as of yet. I've always gotten my chickes from MMH, and of course, this batch came from them as well. I am just totally keeping my fingers crossed that #1)the hens whose eggs they came from were not infected or showing signs of illness and #2)they were never exposed to the virus as eggs or as new hatches. I am keeping my fingers crossed we don't encounter problems.
I wonder how many cases of this problem have happened with the hatchery so far. Is it like every shipment going out has problems, or was it just shipments within a certain date/time frame, etc...also, I wonder if it was in specific regions/states, or if the disease is popping up all over?? How on earth are we supposed to know if our chicks had been exposed? You would think there would have been some sort of alert or 'recall warning' on the web site if there was an infectious poultry disease spreading from the hatchery....
This message was edited Mar 24, 2008 6:55 PM
It is best to confirm your list of questions with a vet, but some like the one if MMH is liable for all birds really can only be answered by MMH. I had great customer service, I only felt comfortable asking them to replace the chicks that died. Others have asked for full refund of their order even though some were still healthy. Others may ask for additional damages to other non-MMH chicks that catch the virus from the infected ones. You will have to decide what level you feel comfortable asking MMH to be responsible for, and what you are willing to absorb for yourself.
See post above, you don't need to kill any infected adult birds, as they won't show signs anyhow (other than possible drop in egg production for a timeframe). You don't need to kill all your chicks, it serves no purpose. If they don't have any symptoms, they may already have been immune, or simply non-susceptible, or maybe just plain old not exposed. I already asked the state vet all of these questions and this is what he informed me. I did not get into the whole "reporting" dealio with him, so unsure about any of that. The virus is able to live four weeks in fecal, bedding material. Once you clean out all old bedding, sanitize waterers, feeders, disinfect the brooder, you can put new livestock back in immediately.
The hatches that have been reported to be infected were hatched the last week of Feb and first week of march.
Your right about that question about MMH, I asked for a refund on the dead chicks also and a promise that they would refund any sick chick that died, and they told me they'd just give me a full refund, and they were sorry that I had a terrible first time experience. This was my first time ever buying on the net.
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 4:55 PM
Typically, MMH hatches the chicks the day they are shipped...so for example, my new babies were hatched this Saturday afternoon (the 22nd), sorted, boxed, driven to Minneappolis and flown right here to Phoenix, Az. the same day, for next day arrival.
I spoke with someone from the hatchery on Friday because I was so concerned about them shipping on Saturday with Sunday being the day of arrival (especially with it being a holiday too), so they told me their shipping procedure and how they almost always hatch on Saturdays for Sunday delivery to the main postal distribution center...however, very few stations are open Sundays, so people typically get the call the chicks are in on Mondays. Well, because I'm a tad compulsive, I was on the phone right away discussing this with our main distribution center and they promised to call me as soon as the babies arrived....so it was a little before 6am yesterday (Sunday) that we got the call the babies had arrived! I think part of the reason they were all so perky and lively was because I had them in the brooder, beaks dipped in water, and warmed up in less than 12 hours from their hatching.
That said...I'm sooo keeping my fingers crossed that since the hatch date was 3-22-08, maybe they weren't exposed to anything bad!! I've always had great service with MMH.
My hatch date was on the paper attached to the outside of the shipping box. Mine hatched 3/1 and that was a bad day for a lot of people. Also there was someone on here that had a hatch date of 2/9 I think, those were sick also. I'd wager there are a lot more bad dates that we aren't aware of yet, especially since MMH is denying there is a problem. How could they have cleaned up an issue they aren't admitting to? Not bashing them, they were great for me, and I will order from them again (2009)...LOL
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 4:54 PM
Yes, Maine, my hatch date was 2/9. Lost almost 30% and
all but 2 showed AE symptoms. I have one or two that appear
'unthrifty', will talk with vet tomorrow about possibly testing it.
One is a blue cochin, half the size of the rest. She sits off to the
side, hunched up, fluffed out, eats drinks, but it just not a
happy camper. I certainly don't want her to be in the production
line. It is so sad, I really feel awful when I look at her, and I
just have to make a decision. I will be so glad when this is over.
Thank you all for the all the added info, it is so valuable, and
helping to make me a better poultry person. These birds are
great, and they bring me a lot of smiles.
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 9:05 PM
thanks, silkiechick for so many answers. we need our minds at ease as much as possible.
i am sure folks will be reporting back after talking to their state vets so we can all have a better understanding. we can be grateful that this is not airborne, and not a reportable disease, because that could have meant more widespread contamination of people's brooders etc. not being reportable just means it is not as serious as other viruses. we are doing great, i think, working together for information.
tf
Thank you Maineiac and Silkie. What I found on the web is consistent with
the answers you (maineiac) provided. But I still wasn't sure I was interpreting
correctly. My chicks are mostly pets with hopes for eggs. So I'm going to give
them all a chance - of the two that got sick first, one died in a couple days and
the other is lingering on. A few more got sick within a week of the first two but
they don't seem as bad. My hatch date is the same as yours 3/1.
Silkie -I'm looking forward to hearing your report today. It would be great to have
confirmation of our understanding on this.
Tam
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 4:53 PM
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 4:52 PM
Excellent distinction, Kathy_Ann! The more rational and informed everyone is, the more seriously the authorities will take the situation. I gave away all my old feed when I gave away my first roosters, because I had been told it would lose nutritional value pretty quickly. Not a problem with large flocks, but with those of us that have only a few, it can be a real danger. I remember as a child feeding an orphaned Blue Jay wet dog food and having his bones become soft, because the "dog food" the vet had meant me to use was the dry, not the wet kind, and the wet food didn't have enough calcium for a growing bird. He recovered, but was slightly deformed. I felt terrible.
Let us know what the final diagnosis is for your chicks.
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 9:03 PM
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 9:04 PM
Hi silkiechick--apparently there is a vitamine E difficiency disease called "Crazy Chick Disease". I googled it and the name is close to the AE name and has similar symptoms, but it is supposed to show up in 2-3 week old chicks. Differential diagnosis would be important because you know MMH will jump on it if someone claims AE and has "Crazy Chick" instead. They would start blaming feed manufacturers instead of taking responsibility themselves. I am sure most of the people with symptomatic chicks from MMH have AE--highly unlikely that only chicks from MMH are being exposed to nutritional deficiencies. Here is the link for the name:http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?crazy+chick+disease. There are better sites describing the disease--it is something they consider when ruling out Newcastle and other reportable diseases.
My chicks have a vitamin E & c deficiency and that is why he said to give them turkey starter . He said do it for 5 days then take them off of it.
He's been an avian vet for 20 years, and I am going to go with what he says to do. Which is all I have to go on. In 5 days i'll put them back on regular chick starter from a different source.
Everybody is going to disagree, That is all good and well. I suppose. but as for me and my birds. I will follow what my Avian state vet has told me to do
He pulled out his poultry disease books, I forget the authors name, and showed me the two different diseases. and what to do in both cases.
If I mentioned that they would get imune to it again, then it was a type o They would get imune to it if they got the AE virus and lived through it is what I meant to say.
I probably just should have kept my post to myself and just done what the STATE VET said to do.
I'm not coming back to this thread, and i'm deleting my post, you try yourself to fix everybody here . OK. I've been to my state vet, and I'm doing what he told me to do Not what a poultry technition tells me to do.
Sorry if that's rude.
Silkie - I'm very glad you're here.
Kathy_Ann, If you acknowledge you are being rude, then why apologize for it? Just be rude and move on. Hey there is a nice AE forum going on at BYC you would fit right in there. Bye-Bye...
I tried to delete that post too but I guess I met my limit of editings for one day, i'll come back tomorrow and dump that post too.
I do hope everybody's chicks get well.
kathy
I googled too and found that the two both exsist
encephalomalacia and encephalomyelitis and both are avian.
This came from the merck veterinary manual
Avian encephalomyelitis must be differentiated from avian encephalomalacia (vitamin E deficiency), rickets, vitamin B1 or B2 deficiency, Newcastle disease, eastern encephalitis, Marek’s disease, and encephalitis caused by bacteria, fungi (eg, aspergillosis), or mycoplasmas. Diagnosis is based on history, signs, and histologic study of brain, spinal cord, proventriculus, gizzard, and pancreas. Virus isolation in eggs free of avian encephalomyelitis antibody is sometimes necessary for confirmation. Serologic testing of paired samples is helpful, using virus neutralization or ELISA tests. Microscopic lesions are sparse and may not be found in infected adults.
When I looked up encephalomylelitis I read this under the diagnosis part (what I posted above)
Avian encephalomalacia does exsist .
He wanted to build up the vitamin c in the chicks becuase of the rubbery legs. which is why he put them on turkey starter for 5 days.
Anyways.
Please accept my appology for that last post, I tried to delete it. It's not my wish to start trouble or be rude in any kind of way.
But why would I make a trip all the way down there and not listen to him, he's been an avian vet for 20 years and was state vet semi retiring , handing over the possition to the other guy that's doing the AE testing on my chicks.
I'll try not to jum p to any more conclusions before posting.
I saw the two diseases in his poultry disease book He let me read it for myself. and then I wrote down the two types of diseases, and that they were both similar in characteristics.
Hi Kathy_Ann. I didn't think you were being rude. You relayed some relevant facts that are very helpful. I think everyone is very worried about AE (the virus) and losing their chicks and maybe all their chickens. The vitamin deficiency is so much a happier diagnosis--eminently curable and not contagious at all. The literature on neurological diseases of chicks lists "crazy chick disease" as something that needs to be ruled out when tests for viral diseases come back negative. It may be that some chicks that have been too sick to eat have both conditions. Were your chicks from MMH during the end of Feb/early March?
Here's what merck says about vitamin E deficiency, encephalomalacia
Vitamin E Deficiency
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 3 main disorders seen in chicks deficient in vitamin E are encephalomalacia, exudative diathesis, and muscular dystrophy. The occurrence of these conditions depends on various dietary and environmental factors.
Encephalomalacia is seen in commercial flocks if diets are low in vitamin E, an antioxidant is either omitted or not present in sufficient quantities, or the diet contains a reasonably high level of an unstable, unsaturated fat. For exudative diathesis to occur, the diet must be deficient in both vitamin E and selenium. Signs of muscular dystrophy are rare in chicks, as the diet must be deficient in both sulfur amino acids and vitamin E. Because the sulfur amino acids are necessary for growth, a deficiency severe enough to induce muscular dystrophy is unlikely to occur under commercial conditions. Signs of exudative diathesis and muscular dystrophy can be reversed in chicks by supplementing the diet with liberal amounts of vitamin E, assuming the deficiency is not too advanced. Encephalomalacia may or may not respond to vitamin E supplementation, depending on the extent of the damage to the cerebellum.
The classical sign of encephalomalacia is ataxia, which results from hemorrhage and edema within the molecular and granular layers of the cerebellum, with pyknosis and eventual disappearance of the Purkinje cells and separation of the molecular and granular layers of the cerebellar folia. Due to its inherently low level of vitamin E, the cerebellum is particularly susceptible to lipid peroxidation. In prevention of encephalomalacia, vitamin E functions as a biologic antioxidant. The quantitative need for vitamin E for this function depends on the amount of linoleic acid and polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet. Over prolonged periods, antioxidants will prevent encephalomalacia in chicks when added to diets with very low levels of vitamin E, or in chicks fed vitamin E-depleted purified diets. Chicks hatched from breeders that are given additional dietary vitamin E are also less susceptible to lipid peroxidation in the brain. The fact that antioxidants can help prevent encephalomalacia but fail to prevent exudative diathesis or muscular dystrophy in chicks, strongly suggests that vitamin E is acting as an antioxidant. Exudative diathesis results in a severe edema caused by a marked increase in capillary permeability. Electrophoretic patterns of the blood show a decrease in albumin levels, whereas exudative fluids contained a protein pattern similar to that of normal blood plasma.
A vitamin E deficiency accompanied by a sulfur amino acid deficiency results in a severe muscular dystrophy in chicks by ~4 wk of age. This condition is characterized by degeneration of the muscle fibers, usually in the breast but sometimes also in the leg muscles. Histologic examination shows Zenker’s degeneration, with perivascular infiltration and marked accumulation of infiltrated eosinophils, lymphocytes, and histocytes. Accumulation of these cells in dystrophic tissue results in an increase in lysosomal enzymes, the function of which appears to be the breakdown and removal of the products of dystrophic degeneration. Initial studies involving the effects of dietary vitamin E on muscular dystrophy showed that the addition of selenium at 1-5 mg/kg diet reduced the incidence of muscular dystrophy in chicks receiving a vitamin E-deficient diet that was low in methionine and cysteine, but did not completely prevent the disease. However, selenium was completely effective in preventing muscular dystrophy in chicks when the diet contained a low level of vitamin E, which by itself had no effect on the disease.
Studies on the interrelationships between antioxidants, linoleic acid, selenium, and sulfur amino acids have brought some order to the previous confusion about the role of vitamin E in chick nutrition. It is now apparent that selenium and vitamin E play supportive roles in several processes, one of which involves cysteine metabolism and its role in the prevention of muscular dystrophy in the chicken. Glutathione peroxidase is soluble and is therefore located in the aqueous portions of the cell, while vitamin E is located mainly in the hydrophobic environments of membranes and in lipid storage cells. The overlapping manner in which vitamin E and selenium function in the cellular antioxidant system suggest that they spare one another in the prevention of deficiency signs
ONe more thing,
This is not the diagnosis from my avian vet , this is his opinion untill the ae virus test comes back. Just so every body knows this .
He put my chicks on 5 days of turkey starter to raise the calcium level in their bodies. Put them on the vitamin supplement for the encephalomalacia that he 's pretty sure that they may have in stead of the virus AE.
It's plain and simple to know that the AE virus is out there.
I just wanted to clarify this, for you all to know that there are similarities between the two diseases. my chicks calcium deficiency is another diagnosis that he also made. and Guessed at the feed being old. Didn't say anything about them not absorbing it, not sure why. but he says we'll know in a few days if this change i've made in their feed habits will help them.
Kathy_ann, I also don't think you were being rude. And, please don't leave this forum.
There is one thing I have learned over the years. You can't please all the people you come in contact with nor can you fix everything for everybody. You just have to do the best you can, and don't let the others make you run.
Again, I ask you to stay with us.
Fingers crossed! (for a happy diagnosis).
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 8:32 PM
Thanks for all the information Kathy. I don't know what was in the posts
you deleted but you have provided a lot of information.
Tam
well, i can see that the state vet is both testing for AE and ruling out the Vit E deficiency. because if the change it diet does nothing for them, it is officially ruled out. that is a good thing, regardless of the end result. always test for one thing while ruling out the other possiblity, so if the test is negative you have already begun to fix th eproblem.
i have had a long tiring day. and with a court date coming up my time with this is going to be limited. so, that said, anyone in my state needing info can contact me. the rest of you "play nice".
hoping for the best outcome for everyone!
tf
there was a few mis understandings in what was written and we both misunderstood some things. no hard feelings. i give up trying to help on this issue.i will say no more on the issue. please post ur results from the lab findings so that it will help others and i will not be back to this thread.
best of luck to everyone and sorry for all ur losses,
silkie
Hi silkiechick. I do think there were misunderstandings on all sides. Your technical expertise is invaluable-- you guys just got your wires crossed. We have to all hang together or we'll each hang alone:-)
I agree.
Kathy Ann you didn't across rude to me...just sharing information.
Theres aways conflicting info out there on any given topic.
You're smart to go along with what your avian vet is recommending.