Forest .... Tips - Images and Ideas

SO after looking at osme forest I am wanting to try and build my own little forest. I have done Mame, and working on my first few larger ones - all singles. Deos anyone have tips - photos of working with diffrent trees in the same "forest", or ideas on getting this working. I would rather not use rocks but open to the idea if I can figure it all out....

What do you all think - will post images when I get started, need to find my trees... I know multiple tress goes against the rules but just itching to get a real slice or the forest.

You might take some flack if you call a mixed planting a 'forest' since that is a defined term. The bonsai scene is very, umm, stodgy about such things, or so it seems to me. On the other hand, there are some recent innovations such as Leon Snyder's microenvironments that do mix different types of plant. I think that there is ongoing debate concerning the acceptance of microenvironments as bonsai, just as there is about the display of kusamono as a stand alone type of bonsai.

If you can work out the practical considerations of combining plants, then you should plant as you please to please yourself. To me the practical considerations would be growth rates of the different types of trees and whether they would thrive in the same conditions. Another consideration for me would be the scale of the parts such as leaves, bloom, bark, and so forth. If one plant is dramatically out of scale to the others it would disrupt the illusion of depth.

I think that on a large scale, pot or slab - not large individual trees, it might be quite possible to create a mixed forest planting. I am thinking of the woods I see around here with oak, elm and pines as the larger trees and under story trees of dogwood and redbud.

How many varieties would you include and how many units of each variety? My first thought would be two varieties, five of one and three of the other just so that there was not an even balance.

Would it be all deciduous, all evergreen, or mixed? Would it be a mix of upper story and under story?

What sort of container? Slab or tray? If you know any one who repairs pool tables that might be a source of a strong (and heavy) slate slab for free. My brother does this and if the slates are badly broken he tosses them.

You have me thoroughly intrigued. I have no intent to create a forest planting, but I will watch eagerly to see how this works for you.

Please post pictures as available or even your further thoughts on the plants you would use.

Beth

I would like to see some photos of some of these microenvironments. I have really been thinking along the same lines that you are now. I am a fan of forest bonsai too and I just do not understand way you need to use only one type of tree. The way that I see it, there are type forms of bonsai the artistic and the realistic. Artistic trees are more about looking pleasing but in ways that you would not see in nature, where as realistic bonsai try to mimic how a tree would like in nature. If you look at almost all forest you will not find just one type of tree so why must a bonsai forest one have but one?

I think that I need to get more experiance working with individual trees before I try to make my first "polyforest" so that I can pick trees that will fist to scale nicely, just like turtle was talking about. I have though a lot about this whole poly-forest idea though and I will share my thoughts here.

I really think that the number of types of trees that you used would need to depend on the number of total trees that you used. I think that each forest should have one species that will be the main type.. Here is a list of the way that I would brake it down...

Small polyforest = 3 total trees (2 of main species and 1 of secondary)
Medium polyforest = 7 total trees (4 of main species, 2 of secondary, and 1 of tirtuary.)
Large polyforest = 13 total trees (8 of main species, 4 of secondary, and 1 of tirtuary.)
Extra Large polyforest = 19 total trees (10 of main species, 5 of secondary, and 3 of tirtuary 1 of a fourth.)

The way that I see it is that there should be twice the number of main species as there is secondary and that their should always be a species that only has one tree. The focal point of the Bonsai needs to be the species that only has the one tree so that it does not get lost in the crowd. I do not know how I feel about mixing deciduous and evergreens yet, I do not know that much about forest, do most forest mix the two? I would think so, but I think it would all have to come down to scale. If you can find trees that would fit a scale then it would be worth a try, but I would only mix the two in a large or extra large polyforest. I really am more of a fan of using slabs for forest, it looks more "natural" to me, but that it just me.

That is all my thinking on this topic that I have done thus far...

The mature or climax forest contains very few specie. In the area where I now live the dominant species was a pine. Due to farming and logging, very few ares of mature forest are left here. In the local state park, the closest thing to mature forest around here, two plants dominate, pine and bald cypress. Understory trees are dogwood in the pine area and swamp maple in the lower part. Outside the park there are areas where land which was logged is in the earlier stages of forest succession. Here there are elms, oak, pine, juniper, maple and dogwood. Even in the earlier stages it is possible to see that one type of tree dominates a local area. Small junipers are everywhere but never seem to dominate. Elms and oaks outnumber the maples, but they are not evenly mixed. In one small area there are more elms, yet another has more oaks. A thicket of wild plum edges a cleared field, but there are no plums under the canopy of the forest.

Traditionally bonsai has reflected age and time. It is reasonable to see the single species forest plantings as a reflection of the serene mature forest.

Cleared farm land has been kept clear for generations partly due to the cost of clearing land. Twenty years ago it cost one thousand dollars to clear an acre of land where I lived in Alabama. The trend toward converting farm land into subdivisions, golf courses, and recreational areas is relativley new.

I don't know if agricultural land is being converted to other uses in Europe. Given Japan's small area, its land forms, and the political protection of the farming lifestyle, I would not expect to see much recognition of the forest succession in bonsai originating there.

None of the above addresses the difficulties of maintaining more than one species in a forest planting, or the aesthetics of combining more than one in a planting. It remains an enteresting problem.

Mitch, you have given me a stimulating topic to think about. I had not realized how much I missed blue sky speculation like this.

Beth

"None of the above addresses the difficulties of maintaining more than one species in a forest planting, or the aesthetics of combining more than one in a planting. It remains an interesting problem."


I think that so long as a person did their homework and picked plants that had needs that were very similar that maintaining it them would not be that much different then a normal forest. One problem that I can see is the rate of growth of the trunks and roots, I think that the trees would be best if they grew about the same rate. If one species was to grow to fast you would need to replace that tree and that would be a major task I would think that all the roots would very intertwined.

As far as the aesthetics...like they say "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Though the reason that I used the numbers that I did above is for aesthetics, nature uses alot of math, it is every where even the pettles of flowers have math to them (do not ask me what...it has been far to long for me to remember what...lol).

Have you thought of making a virtual simulation of a mixed specie forest? That would be a way to get an eyeball estimate of the final product quickly and without the expense of purchasing plants before you are ready.

Yes, the math and geometry of nature is amazing. It is also amazing to me how very few genetic differences there are between humans and maple trees. It is a strange and wonderful world.

Beth

Beth there is so much to figure out but I am going to give it a go this Spring.. I need to figure out my plants - I want 15-20 trees/shrubs... 2 or three types total. I need to get out there and figure this one out - I really do. I keep looking ofr pots or rocks to do this in and cannot find what I am looking for. I think I want a hardwood, so no evergreen... evengreen might be better to fill in all in and not be so hard to match. Do you think dogwood or redbud might work mixed with a maple or oak - would love an oak . . .

You might find that creating your own slab is the way to go here. Something like reinforced hypertufa. It can be colored with grout pigment and you can build planting pockets into it if that is needed.

My thought is that you should decide on your first tree species and secure those plants in the range of sizes you will need. Seedlings seem to be the cheapest way to go, but you could also try air layering, cuttings, or root cuttings.

I have not worked with oaks, but I I remember reading that reducing the leaf size is problematic. I would definately look for a plant that has a small leaf by its nature. Do you really want to leaf prune 20 trees in one planting? Seems like it would be tight quarters to work in. What has a small leaf that is native to where you live? Or is acclimated to where you live? Here I would look at elms. Isn't there a Celtis that does well in Texas?

It sounds as if you also want a flowering plant in the mix. Think about the size of the flowers and leaves. Dogwood, Cornus florida has relatively large flowers. Redbud, Cercis has large leaves. Take a look at hawthorns. They have smallish blooms and fruit, as well as small leaves. Some of the shrubby St Johns wort have small leaves and small yellow flowers. Cotoneaster is also a possibility. They have small leaves, flowers and fruit.

I could actually see Japanese maples and hawthorn together, maybe with small Spirea thunbergi, either single or the flora plena form as understory. Add some moss, a scattering of Little Ebony Spleenwort, wow. I have no desire to grow it, but I would love to see it done.

What is your time frame on this?

Beth

I though that St Johns Wort was a flower. Can you link me to the plant information on the SJW shrub?

There are a lot of St Johns worts. The genus is almost world wide in distribution. Look up Hypericum in seed or plant catalogs. I think that you will find some that are suitable for bonsai in the shrubby types. Seed may be available from some of the homeopathic medicine sites since some of the plants have medicinal value.

At least one of the shrub types is hardy to zone 7 without winter dieback. That one has flowers about 1 to 1 1/2 inch diameter and fairly small leaves. There are also weedy types that have flowers under 1/2 inch and tiny leaves.

I miss my former job at the Gardens in Birmingham when I really used all this on a daily basis.

Beth

Turtle love your ideas and I think the slab might be the way to go... pots just being to hard to make look right for something like this.

J. Maples are stunning and I have seen some smaller leaved ones here somewhere - need to get looking. Love all the ideas and yes leave pruning 20 some trees will be a huge pain so the better the leave shape to start with the better off in the long run.

I hope to start this spring - if I can get my ducks in a row - pot first and finding the seedlings.

I've a friend that has a Japanese Marple that produces offspring by the gazzillion every year. I've a similiar J. Maple, but haven't seen much seedlings unless I weeded them out before I see them young things. lol.
I'm contemplating....forest....forest of Maples. lol.

Hi everyone, have you thought of making your own container with hypertufas? That way you can get the exact shapes of a planter that you would like? Hmmm, just an idea.

A wonderful idea - I am going to give it a try or... find a slab I can use.

I had to do a google to learn what that container was but I really am thinking about making one. I would not want to use it for this polyforest but I would want to use it for my water bonsai forest that have the seeds in the fridge for.

I plan to make a 3 tree bald Cypress forest that is grown from water. In this water I plan to keep 5 male platy. Bonsai and Koi are both Japanese traditions that go back many many generations, so I though that I would combine the two into one work of art...kinda.

Because of the size that Koi can get over the years I can not use them and keep a Bonsai scale. Bald cypress adverage around 60ft and Koi adverage 30in, the koi being 1/24th the size of the tree. After doing some asking around I was to pick from koi swordtails or Platy fish, both of them would look like "mini-koi" when viewed from above. The swordtails get to be about 4in meaning the trees would need to be 8ft, not really much of a Bonsai...Male Platy get to be around 1.5in making the trees 3ft is all.

I would need a tank that is about 10 gallons. 10 gallons is about 2400 cubic inches and I would like my "tank" be 6in deep that makes the size of my tank 20x20x6. Since koi are meant to be viewed only from the top I do not want my tank to be transparent and I need to would be nice to be able to hide the filter and heater and what ever else. I feel that using this hypertufas I can make a pot that will look nice, hold the fish, hold the trees, and I could make a thick hollow base to hide what I need to.

Man I really need to win the lotto so I can Bonsai and garden all the time...lol.

You are going to grow from seed? I have thought about that - how are you going to do it?

I have some tree seeds in a lightly moist paper towel in side a ziplock bag. I will leave them in there for about 2 months. Next I will put the seeds into planter trays till they get 1-2 inches. Then pot them in 4 inch pots. I am hoping that those pots will last me till till this fall.

This fall the person that owns the place I rent is moving to France and they are selling the house so I will be moving and I do not want to have to move a ton of 1 or 2 gallon pots when I move.

I will sit on the sidelines and watch. I am not going to create any bonsai that I cannot move by myself. As it is, I have acquired too much stock already. Watering is going to be a pain when it heats up here.

Does anyone else feel a certain dread when approaching the problems of styling a new tree? I am always sure that the branch I cut off will be the very one I should have left. I have an Arizona Cypress that has all the taper of a pencil. I need to cut it back and train a new leader, but I can't decide how low on the trunk to make the cut. The trunk is still very flexible, so I am leaning toward an informal upright with strong curves. I suppose if I take it one step at a time and wire the trunk first, that will give me time to decide what else to do.

Beth

Beth I am the same way.. wo worried about what I am cutting and what I need to be leaving...

Herb - How long will it take from seed to tree - any guess on the years? I dont mind the wait I just want to know how long that wait will be!

Well if you buy 3 year old seedlings they are 2-3 feet tall, but I do not not how many years it takes before the trunk gets any size on it. For this project I would wait till the trees where about two years old before putting them in with fish. I really am thinking about buying 3 bald cypress, even though I have about 30 in the fridge, that way I can get started on this project. I would really like to have this up and running in 6-8 months.

The wait is hard.. the wait is always my downfall.

So have started some seeds - 10 or so trees and will pick out the best one or two types to go into this!

ahh, Mitch, but you have that delicious anticipation. When will they sprout, when will I see the first true leaves?

Actually, I think I have started too late in life to start anything from seed. That is why I am determined to concentrate on shohin. You can get good results from nursery stock in a relatively short time.

Beth

at 28 I stil have a few years to see something grow and develop...

Yep I have checked on them already - after only one day planted!

Did you just plant the tree seed? You know that most tree seeds, to germinate, they need to go through a winter type environment. To do this you should plant the tree seed in the ground in the fall for you can put them in a ziplock bag in the fridge for 2 or 3 months.

If you did not do this and would like more information just tell us what species of tree/s your trying to grow and I am sure that some one here can help with more details for that plant.

Oh some tropical, so not - some are in the fridge and others are in full sun. Everything from Pride of Barbados to White Pine.

Good...good...I was just making sure since you never really know what people know. Although, I am sure that most people here know far more than I do...lol

Dont be sure - always double check. My first year with seeds I put them all out in the spring with no chill and did bad - very badly.. I had no idea. So please always check - you never know what struggle you will save someone.

Herby Canopy, I don't know very much about Bonsai, but I do know about fish. I may be wrong, but you seem to be worried mostly about the scale of the fish rather than its suitability to the water conditions you may be offering, which is the most important aspect of the fish's health (reminiscent to caring for your bonsai!).

If I might offer, read up on the style of "Takashi Amano" in aquariums for inspiration and note that his fish may not display the colors of the koi, but look very natural in their surroundings and appropriate to the scale of his aquariums, whether large or small. There are small fish that provide a bit of color, but its "fins" in addition to color that I think of when I see koi. Small fish that display the grace of a koi at that size are few, especially if you consider which will remain at the surface for viewing. If this is an indoor creation, you will have more control over the temperature for the fish, but if out of doors in any place north of zone 10, you will need to worry about the fish's ability to tolerate the temperature. Goldfish are by nature a cool water fish, while most tropical fish are not. You may also wish to consider including some freshwater shrimp. I have found them to be excellent clean up creatures in a planted aquarium.

Fish to consider that grow in the wild in a more temperate climate include killifish or small gouramis which might be colorful, even if not in the colors you may be seeking. If you can find a longer finned platy, that would also be a good choice as you are already considering. The below site is well regarded for shrimp and fish and aquarium plants. There is a killi called a "gold wonder" killifish that hangs at the top of the aquarium that I've had live for several years. Most livebearing fish, and shrimp, can tolerate a bit of salt water in their water, which may benefit your water forest if they prefer a brackish water.

http://www.azgardens.com/misc_fish.php

Largosmom: Thanks for all the information, I will have to do some research into some of that. I have though a lot about the condition of the water for both the fish and for the plants, but all the research that I do on it really means nothing. When it comes down to water conditions and the fish the thing that really counts is after I have the tank setup with the trees alive and well. After that point I will need to see what the different conditions of the water are and then make the final decision if it is suited for the Platy. If the water is not suited for the Platy then I will decide if it would be best, for the fish and trees, to make the needed changes to the water to make it more idea for the fish or if it would be better to try to find a fish that will do well in the water condition as it is.

I do not want nor wish to do any harm to the fish or the trees. This will be a inside fish "tank". I plain to use a filter system that will make it so that I do not have to shrimp or fish to help with the cleaning. On top of the overkill filter I will do all the water changes that are needed to keep every thing clear and clean.

What a great thread. I have been trying Bonsai for probably 50 years. Some successes and many failures., I did try a forest once but that turned out to be one of my failures. But after reading this thread I want to try again. I'm thinking that hypertufa would be the way to go. I have made a couple of things using hypertufa. I am only interested in doing a forest that pleases me not for competition or anything like that. I just have to try to figure out which trees will grow together in a small area.

Donna

Donna: would think that you have more then enough experiance to pull it off nicely. If it was me I would look at the trees you have now or have had in the past and look at the scale of them. You will want to pick trees whose folage will be close to the same size, I think that that will be the hardest part of the whole thing.

Also I just was thinking...If I remember correctily there are some evergreens that are very acidic that make it so that a lot of plants can not grow to close to them. If that is right you would need to take that into count when you pick your trees.

Thanks Herby, My natural soil is very alkaline. But of course when I mix soil for bonsai can more orless be whatever is best for what I trying to grow. I do have two or three smaller bonsai types that i think I could start a forest with. When my weather ever warms up enough for me to do things outside and if I can find time (am way behind now because of weather) I will try to get started with a forest.

Donna

There might be a way to get the trees you need to start your bonsai forest instantly.

The article said go hunt in the woods along river banks,streams, cliffs,anywhere nature,over time, will have"stunted" the growth of the trees already, "dig" them up roots,soil and all intact , pot them up at home, and bingo, instant,old bonsai ready to work with. This way the tree is usually at least 20 or 30 yrs. old, growing in the right soil conditions and ready to be trained.

There are two men in our Bonsai club with forest. The first one that I will post is a forest of Red Maple's

The second one is Shimpaku Junipers and Chinese Elm.

That second one is just what I have been looking for - thank you for posting!! A mix of trees with the little stuff in there... very nice.

didbrou, Thankyou for posting the excellent photos o fbonsai forest. Just what I would like to attempt.

DonnaS

Nice work!
Forest plantings are always enchanting.

Thanks for the compliments. I will pass them on to the proud growers of these forest. They are alway willing to answer any questions I have and I would be glad to ask them questions for you.

I have a fish suggestion for Herby_Canopy to consider - the long finned forms of the Zebra Danio (Brachydanio rerio) They come in gold http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://bp2.blogger.com/_-I2R3HdTIkY/Rr-fouwHUuI/AAAAAAAAAj0/0vtYtHljXfc/s400/Long%2Bfin%2Bdanio%2B1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://weirdthingsinmytank.blogspot.com/2007/08/longfin-danio.html&h=267&w=400&sz=25&hl=en&start=1&sig2=aAf-CYVvNOSHD2OEqqt-bw&um=1&tbnid=m0fKGDTRb5oLFM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=124&ei=01Y5SIWtH424pgSB5sWMBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DLong%2Bfinned%2Bdanio%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN and blue forms http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/img/Danio_rerio_6.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_danio.php&h=360&w=630&sz=28&hl=en&start=8&sig2=a_4gaGNn4FpicvX4aGmsXw&um=1&tbnid=ZgbUNnthT2OHMM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=137&ei=01Y5SIWtH424pgSB5sWMBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DLong%2Bfinned%2Bdanio%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN and only grow to a lenth of about 2 inches at maturity. As well as the striped kinds they also come in spotted forms and albinos - even glow in the dark genetically engineered kinds! although those would be a bit too much, I would think. The short finned version of the fish is even more robust but I like the long fins because you can see the long side fins from the top of the water as they trail like streamers as the fish move. The fact that they come in many types will allow you to recreate some of the style of the Koi pond where every fish has a different look.

Danios are happily communal and active fish which spend a lot of time in the top part of the tank - with the right filtration I suspect you could keep as many as 5 to 7 in 10 gallons of water. and I know from experience they will tolerate the same water as adult goldfish in an outdoor pond with overnight air temperatures down to 8C/47F, though their comfort range is from 18C/60F to 24C/75F. If you could rig one of those chromatic light bulbs in a concealed mounting to shine down on the top of the water, they would be like moving gemstones.

The whole thing sounds like a fascinating project and I wish you luck with it.

Ciao, KK.