dumb questions about WS'ing

Hello all - my first post on DG. Some brief background: I'm currently engaged in the lengthy process of naturalizing my entire back yard with Western New York-native forbs, grasses, and shrubs. I'm following the "plant communities" approach, building around what's already there. By this stage I'm no longer a total novice, but I don't exactly have a great track record either. Last year I tried cold/moist stratification with late spring sowing for seeds of the following species: iris versicolor, caltha palustris, lobelia cardinalis, & lobelia syphilitica. Exactly NONE of the seeds germinated. So I'm definitely going to go with winter sowing this year. I had actually planned to do it in November or December, but got busy and am still kicking myself for not having gotten it done. I'm going to have to wait until this fall at this point, I think.

(I've also changed my mind about the species I want: I planted a lobelia cardinalis and a lobelia syphilitica from containers last spring, and the cardinalis died, while the syphilitica required massive watering due to the horrible midsummer drought. While parts of my yard are soaked in spring, even those parts got dusty in summer, so I'm going to go with more versatile plants this time.)

That brings me to my dumb questions. The first is: Why sow in containers rather than in the place where you want the plants to grow permanently? From what I've read, winter snow and ice do a good job of "planting" seeds that are sown on the top of the soil in the fall. The "lessons learned" thread also seemed to provide a lot of reasons why sowing in containers can be tricky. Removing the transplanting phase, at the very least, seems to take one element of risk out of the equation.

The second question is: What about flowers that go to seed in late spring? Specifically, woodland forbs like trillium and dicentra cucullaria/canadensis. Is it acceptable to sow these seeds in late spring or early summer? After all, that is precisely the time when the seeds would be dispersed in the wild. Since the rationale of winter sowing is to replicate Mother Nature's process, summer sowing seems like the logical equivalent for these early-blooming native forbs. Everything I've read suggests that native grasses, at least, can be sowed virtually any time of year, as they do not even require stratification.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Hello Jsorens, and welcome to DG and the winter sowing forum.

Your questions are not at all dumb; bet lots of other people would like to know the answers to them also!

Why sow in containers rather than in the place where you want the plants to grow permanently?

The containers provide a more controlled and protected environment. For example, squirrels can't get in there and dig, and snails and damaging insects are deterred. The greenhouse like containers keep moisture levels even and prevent the seeds from getting washed away. Yes, there's a little work involved in making sure the seedlings don't fry once they are up, but the pay-off is a lot more plants than you would have gotten via direct sowing, and you can place them/space them exactly as you want to. Transplanting is some work too, of course, but again, the pay-off is worth it. Plants are not usually set back by transplanting because mostly we plant out when they are quite small. Even things like poppies and nasturtiums that supposedly resent transplanting do fine when they are planted out early.

The second question is: What about flowers that go to seed in late spring? Specifically, woodland forbs like trillium and dicentra cucullaria/canadensis. Is it acceptable to sow these seeds in late spring or early summer?

Here are my thoughts. Some plants require double dormancy to germinate, meaning a period of warm-cold-warm. Those types definitely can benefit from a late summer/fall sowing. However, most plants that set seed in spring/summer do not need double dormancy to germinate. Some of them need single dormancy (cold-warm) and some of them just need warm. The warm sowers could be sown in spring and that would give them what they need. If you sowed the 'cold sowers', they would just sit there until they got what they needed (cold weather followed by warm) and you would run the risk of having them rot while waiting. To get a sense of how to play the weather when sowing seeds, looking up what you'd like to sow in any of these germination databases really helps, as they indicate if dormancy/double dormancy is helpful.


http://www.backyardgardener.com/tm1.html

www.theseedsite.co.uk

http://tomclothier.hort.net/

It's all about maximizing success.

Hope that helps,
Susan

Forgot to add, that some seeds have short viability and can benefit from being sown as soon as they are ready. You mentioned dicentra, and the seeds for some species of this are known to have short viability. For example, from Tom Clothiers:

"Dicentra cucullaria, eximia, formosa, peregrina, and spectabilis , Sow at 18-22ºC (64-71ºF) for 2-4 wks, move to -4 to +4ºC (24-39ºF) for 4-6 wks, move to 5-12ºC (41-53ºF) for germination , short viable seed - sow immediately after harvest"

Regards,
Susan

Thanks for the enlightening info. I suppose there might be a few species I could even now try to winter sow, since we have about 6 weeks left of cold weather.

I figured viability was an issue for dicentra and trillium, since I haven't seen seeds for sale online for those species. This complicates the schedule a bit!

It's still an excellent time to wintersow, so yes certainly give it a try!

In response to your question about seeds that naturally ripen and fall in late spring, I was reminded of Aquilegia which exhibits that behavior. Interesting thing about them is that fresh seed that falls in late spring germinates easily and quickly, but seed that remains in the pod continues to ripen to a point that they eventually require cold stratifcation to germinate. Mother nature's way of preventing the seed from germinating too late in the season and being vulnerable to winter kill. I don't know specifically of other species that operate this way, but I suspect there are others.

Neal

Fascinating! This is why I'm getting into native plants - they're so well adapted to the local environment.

Well, I'm going to give it a try. I just ordered a few seeds for winter sowing:

* Desmodium canadense - http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=DECA7 - a showy, bushy wildflower
* Gaultheria procumbens "Very Berry" cultivar - http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=GAPR2 - aromatic ground cover
* Geranium maculatum - http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=GEMA - showy wildflower
* Two native grasses: little bluestem and Indiangrass

I ordered in quantity, so I will have a few hundred extra seeds of the first three species. I'll post something on the seed trading board about making a trade...

Keep us posted on your Wintersowing project' ...sounds very interesting!

and you're definitely not too late for Wintersowng... we're really just getting going.

Hi JSORENS,I will share a tip on lobelia cardinalis.I love this plant,like you I had trouble keeping them alive.I was determined to find a method.Here it is.Get a cheap plastic bucket(Dollar Store).Put 2" of pea gravel on the bottom.Dig a hole,bury the bucket below ground level.Fill the bucket with the soil you removed from the hole.Mix a little all purpose fertilizer or compost in the soil.(Real gardners never refer to soil as dirt).Plant the plants.With no drainage holes the bucket will hold water and not dry out.Yeah you gotta water it in the heat of summer,but not that often.This method is fool proof.It took me years of experimentation to figure this out.Try it,it has worked for me for several years in a row.Edge

This message was edited Feb 27, 2008 5:07 PM