Anyone grow roses organically?

mpg,
Do you have a favorite David Austin rose? Just curious.
gb

Hi Brian,
I've grown roses organically for 4 years. The first year was the most difficult because my garden needed time to recover from the damage caused by pesticides that indiscriminately kill everything and chemical fertilizers that destroy the natural balance in the soil.
For my garden the 1st and most important step was to build up the health of the plants and the soil.
I created a friendly environment for earthworms, ladybugs and birds. I think one of the best things I did was to invite birds into my garden, it did my heart good to watch purple finches feast on aphids, leaf rollers and rose slugs.

David Austin roses are probably my favorite.
Austins on HNF: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?order=1&aliases%5B4%5D=4&sbList=CONTINUE&lstgID=5940&tab=2
English roses grow very wide and need more room than say a Hybrid Tea.
If you're looking for a deep red The Squire, Falstaff, Othello, Tradescant and Shakespeare 2000 are my personal picks.
Teasing Georgia is a golden yellow and gets huge, it's a great bloomer and with such a large size makes the perfect backdrop for more mannerly DAs. Pegasus is another large golden yellow Austin (less bushy and more arching)

For salmon/persimmon colored DAs; Benjamin Britten and Christopher Marlowe, I love them both.
A couple of pretty pink Austins are Gertrude Jekyll and Abraham Darby. For pink I also love The Ingenious Mr Fairchild although for me it's always kind of droopy and I think it would look best draping over a retaining wall or in a tall pot.

(just a few of my favorites)
Cheers
Dove

Thanks Dovey, It's so good to hear from you. I enjoyed looking at your pics from your CA rose garden. I can't wait to see your new pics once you get re-established, and anxious for you to become a seasoned Z5 gardener so that you can better advise us northern rose gardeners.

My biggest challenge was keeping my daughter's male dog from watering the rosebushes. Took me a while at first to figure out what was killing the first ones that I set out. I've had to enclose them with a barrier that he prefers spraying over the roses. Just doesn't look as pretty. I talked of tying his back legs together, but my daughter wasn't too happy with that idea.

Yeah, the 3 family dogs are my biggest gardening challenge. One dog even eats the blooms and esp. loves the hips. Another reason that I decided to use Dart's Dash as a hedge, I figure that she can eat all she wants. I'm going to concentrate on hardscaping this summer (paver paths bordered with raised beds) and give up on any grassy lawn. As long as the pups have a "track" to run, they're happy. I thought that roses would dress things up. Some arbors here and there over the "track" to add interest and shade.

I'm very partial to yellow roses. My favorite is Graham Thomas. It's supposed to grow 8 ft, but it would easily get 15+ if I didn't cut it back 2x a year. My other favorite is probably Crown Princess Margareta. .. It's got more pink to it, and its is also very vigorous (not a monster like GT, though). It also smells fantastic. Graham Thomas is gorgeous, but the smell is not very strong. I also really like "Comtes de Champagne." It is a small bush with pale yellow flowers, not quite a single, but with very few petals that gives it a feeling of a wild rose. I have it in an area that gets a fair amount of shade--both early morning and late afternoon, and it does very well.

I have had some problems in the past with my dogs and gardens. I turned "get out of the garden" into a game--when I play fetch, sometimes I deliberately throw the ball into the garden area. If they go in there I say, very sternly "get out of the garden." At first, when I started this, I had to clap my hands, sometimes too, to get their attention. If they stopped before going into the garden area, I would lavish praise on them (and maybe a treat) and get the ball myself. This worked really well and my dogs rarely go into the garden area. It took daily practice, though, and it is not 100%. (I'm sure if a squirrel was hanging out by the roses, all bets would be off!)

I looked at the "Comtes de Champagne" because I have a shady area from the mature silver maple tree. Problem is the roots are so invasive and shallow that it's difficult to get anything to grow near it. I see that this is a DA rose. I'm really wanting the hybrid musks for the shady areas since they're also great OG roses. Dovey and others on the rose forum have already given me great advice on the HMs; along with lovely photos. I'll order them once I get my yard more ready. My HM wish list is already too long.

My dogs know to stay out of the fenced off vegie garden and the playground area. Sometimes, someone will leave the garden gate open & I'll catch the 3 of them standing outside the gate looking in. When they see me at the door, they turn & run away. The thing is -- they could jump the gate if they wanted too. It's that the 3 of them run circles around the yard chasing each other all day that leaves the appearance of a dirt track. The pine needles and wood chips look good, it's just time to add a new layer. I do have to work on training Kai about where he can relieve himself. He is a good sweet boy & very eager to please.

I am going for hardy low maintenance roses; esp. continuous or repeat bloomers. Yeah, I've lusted over many Graham Thomas photos in the past. It's reassuring to hear from DG folks who are successfully growing roses without chemicals; esp. encouraged to hear from Dovey because she has such success with roses. It's been great hearing from all of you. Pretty soon, we'll be out in our gardens again. ; )

Hi, everyone. I haven't posted to this board in nearly a year...I've been working on an environmental website and it's taken about 105% of my time!

Anyway, I have a big garden problem.

I have about 25 rose bushes which I try to grow organically. I use the alfalfa tea recipe from this site for fertilizer (plus green sand and compost), and I use the organic stuff to defeat the black spot, which is a problem around here but not a disastrous one.

But the Japanese Beetles...they are a disaster. We get MILLIONS of them. They stack on top of each other, glinting in the sun, multiplying and making everyone sick to look at them and are way too many to "shake into your sudsy soap bucket." I've done that. There are too many thousands of them for this to be effective. I'd need a sudsy solution in the back of a pick up truck to catch all of them.

I mean, left to their own devices I would not have one leaf on any of the roses, nor one blossom between July 1 and about August 25.

I have these plants spread here and there on about 2 acres in the middle of a ten acre property (we live in the country). Normally, my "technique" for dealing with the JBs is to enjoy the roses in their first flush in May/June, and then Avert My Eyes during JB season, and then try to reclaim the roses for a September flush (which is always less fabulous because of the damage done to the bushes in July and August.

But this year: our property is on the Garden Conservancy Open Days tour in September!! I can't have the roses looking like they've been eaten to pieces by summer's JBs even if the tour is in mid- September. I'm tempted to bomb these bushes w/ something horrible just to make them look OK for the tour...but I don't want to do that!!

Any ideas? I'm beside myself!

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to weigh in. Go Dave's Garden! (My Second Favorite Website, after my enviro one! LOL)

I have a Dutchman friend who has the solution for solving your rose problem. He would lead you on for awhile and then with the smile of wisdom say people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Then he will not say anymore leaving you to realize that if your beetle problem is an area wide severe problem it's easier to not grow roses until the area can treat at least a few square miles with Milky Spore Disease.

The only other choice is to purchase and use the poisons every seven to fourteen days you said you do not want to use.

Here's a site that has some suggestions
http://www.gardenandhearth.com/OrganicVegetableGarden/Japanese-Beetles.htm
The thing I found interesting was that they can sense that other JB's are in the area, so if you hand pick them to reduce the numbers, then less will show up. I'm sure it's a lot of effort on a property the size of yours to do that, but just for this one year maybe you can put in the extra effort to go pick them off every couple days. You won't eliminate them that way, but hopefully you'll end up with less damage that way. The other suggestions they have aren't going to be that useful for you--things like milky spore aren't going to be that effective unless a wider area than just your property is treated.

Milky Spore Disease has been actively helping my property for nearly forty years maybe longer. What transpires when you are the only user in a hot spot of any white grub beetle is that they are effectively killed underground where they really do the most damage.....we just do not see that damage at first. As long as beetle lay eggs the disease will attack the larva causing the new and increased spore count from the larva's demise. In this instance you will be assured of the disease spores staying in your soil.

Think about this for a minute or two. When you get one larva you just effectively prevented another hundred or so eggs being placed for next year's larva. In addition the dying larva will have produced another pocket of Milky Spore Disease for other beetle to be infected by.

Because you still see lots of fly-in adults it may seem your work is to no benefit to yourself but that is entirely wrong. Those fly-ins lay eggs to keep your spore supply at its best condition and high spore counts. You will not need to retreat for many many years. My treatments have held up to fifteen years between a need to consider re-treatiment. I have not had a grub or grub related problem like moles or skunks messing up my property. This is not true of my adjoining properties. The only difference I am aware of is the use of Milky Spore Disease.

Same here, doc. I applied Milk Spore over 15 years ago and it's still doing just fine. I do use trap crops and put phenomes traps to the outside of my property. Heaven forfend I should be borrowing the neighbor's JBs......grin

I agree...I have used Milky Spore for years and no grubs or grub related problems. Since you are having this special event this year, how about getting some praying mantis eggs and hatch them. They will take care of your beetles and with many beetles, they won't have time to eat anything else.

Thanks everyone for your ideas. If I understand you right, I should try to use the Milky Spore this spring, even if it's just around where I have roses, because its better than nothing? Or I should use preying mantises. And pick off the ones not killed by the Milky Spore.

Right?

Milky Spore takes a while to act. You'd probably be better with the praying mantis. You also might want to check this and other websites for more specific information. http://www.planetnatural.com/site/xdpy/kb/beneficial-insects-arthropods.html
Mantis are very territorial, so you may not need many.

Milky Spore Disease like all products has instructions on the label. You should now give Google the job of leading you to the instructions and not take it from me or anyone else for that matter. When putting anything on your property that you do not understand it is very important that you satisify yourself how it is to be used, what it will cost and what results you might expect to achieve.

Ultimately the decision has to be fully your responsibility and your decision to use or not to use anything suggested. The beauty of this day is that you can easily find data on anything right at your desk top with the help of Google.

daisygrrl...docgipe is right...it is your decision to make. I got my praying mantis eggs buy doing a search on ebay for praying mantis eggs. Instead of putting the eggs outside, I used a plastic container from the grocery store where they sell salads & cold cuts. I put the eggs in it with plastic wrap over the top and a rubber band. Put a few tiny holes in the plastic. I kept mine in the kitchen so I could check it every day. As soon as they hatch, I take them outside and sprinkle them in the shrubs that are pretty thick. This gives them some protection from the birds. I sprinkle more near the shrubs that may attract aphids so they can start eating right away. As they get bigger...they go for beetles, etc.
Whatever you decide, good luck.

thanks, everyone, for your suggestions!

Daisy
Considering the size and time frame I suggest Muscovy Ducks.
I use Milky spore, but if I could have a Muscovy I would in a heartbeat!
They eat all manner of grubs and beetles.

{a little info from: http://www.geocities.com/MUSCOVYDUCKS/ }

The Muscovy's original name was "Musco Duck", because it is known as the "Mosquito Duck", for eating Mosquitoes.
The Russian Muscovites was one of the first to import them.
One of the main reasons they were brought here several hundred years ago, is to help keep down the mosquito and bug population, and that they do, and do it well. There are billions of insects on a acre of land, and the Muscovy ducks are worth their weight in gold at eating mosquitoes and insects. They eat the mosquito larva right in the water, and they nip in the air and eat the ones flying around. They love roaches and eat them like they are candy, they eat flies, and maggots and do a lot to keep down the fly population. They even eat those rolly pollies that you find under rocks and all around the outside of your house. They have a bad taste, and most birds won't even eat them, the Muscovys are one of the few things that will eat them. I have even seen them eat ants, they eat every bug they see. But what even makes them more valuable is they love spiders, and they eat even the poisonous ones.

Mother Earth News: http://www.motherearthnews.com/eggs/pestpatrol.aspx

You've heard the saying, "Like a duck on a June bug"

Dove



This message was edited Mar 13, 2008 11:06 AM

It would be great if our community permitted even a pet duck. They don't. As far as I know I am permitted to keep and not shoot the dreaded English Sparrow and Starlings. Down home type lifestyles are about legislated out of our existance.

I've considered milky spores, but since it helps if neighbors use it, too, and I am the only one growing roses, I doubt I could get the neighbors to do it. I think we have praying mantis as volunteers here. Found some on and in the back seat of our car!!

Wow, I didn't know that Muscovy ducks would go for the beetles. I am sure that ducks, pet or not, count as "farm animals" and therefore are not permitted on residential lots. It would be cool to have them for any reason, especially for beetle battle. .

I've considered milky spores, but since it helps if neighbors use it, too, and I am the only one growing roses, I doubt I could get the neighbors to do it. I think we have praying mantis as volunteers here. Found some on and in the back seat of our car!!

Wow, I didn't know that Muscovy ducks would go for the beetles. I am sure that ducks, pet or not, count as "farm animals" and therefore are not permitted on residential lots. It would be cool to have them for any reason, especially for beetle battle. .

They only way to get past city ordinances is to raise the duck, rabbit or chicken as a 4H or Boy Scout merit badge project. I'm a little old and the grandkids are too far away to convince the city government of either of those.
Besides, I would need the duck to roam free.
I thought Daisy was on 10 acres and might get by with it.

As for Milky Spore and neighbors, I use it anyway. Call me a Pollyanna, but I can not believe it would not help even just a little, perhaps even spread outward from my beetle free utopia *S*

What we so often overlook is the fact that the root damage from larva is as bad or worse even than what the beetle do on top. Milky Spore stops that on the property so treated. Also it often takes away the food chain for skunks and moles enough that they to go elsewhere to do their surface damage. I've been sold on the Milky Spore for forty years more or less. I too am in the middle of a beetle meca. I like not having the skunks and moles to deal with as well as knowing the larva are few and far between that evade the disease.

Doc,
Great point!

I am going to try that milky spore this spring for sure, but doubt if it will do much this summer. The muscovy ducks might be a bit more than we can handle around here right now, but a cool idea

So glad to find this post. Very interesting!
While I have lots of roses, JB's and even Muscovy Ducks that DON'T eat JB's...its late.
Will come back another time.
In the mean time you can read my rose pages on my website if you'd like...
http://www.freewebs.com/cottage_rose_birdsnblossoms/oldgardenroses.htm

One of my favorite David Austin's...
"Constance Spry"

One quicky question.
Moles love earthworms.
Resent research has proven they prefer them even over grubs.
Does Milky Spore kill earthworms?
If not why would killing grubs make the moles move on if there are still earthworms available to eat?


Geese & Chickens don't eat JB either.
Pict. Sebastopol goslings & Alba 'Pompon Blanc Parfait'

Milkey Spore only kills white grubs. You will have to stop by and ask the moles why they prefer other property after the grubs are killed off. I have not had moles....not a one of record..... for about forty years. This is not true of the four neighbors that adjoin my property. As for the skunks...........they are definately grub diggers. We do have the usual early mating season neighborhood skunk visits with the early morning scent on the air. We do not have our property dug ub by grubbing skunks. This is not true of the adjoining neighbors property.

Since I have almost never used harsh chemicals I have a very high worm count all over the property. This is not true of the neighbors. One would think if worms were the attaction I would have those burrowing critters all over the place. I don't have them and do not know or could not prove why. Just an observation. Maybe it's the grubs that make the gormet added touches on a dandy worm meal. Whatever the reason we are pleased not to have those critters making like the Corps of Engineers messing up our yard and gardens.

We have lots of squirrels that scratch about but they do not leave ugly holes or ankle turning divots. Their bounty is only burried a little bit under the surface.

Ducks LOVE to eat almost any type of beetle. (Sow/pill bugs, too!)
And, unlike geese, they don't eat (most) plants. Maybe the cute little upright Runner Ducks would be nice for the average gardener? (They look sort of like penguins!) When I had ducks, I didn't garden. Now I garden, but don't have ducks...maybe I will get them together this year! Holderreadfarm.com has always been good to me, and they ship day old ducklings. Yes, you can safely ship baby birds-their yolk sac keeps them fed and watered for two to three days! And they don't need water to swim in, only water deep enough (2 or 3 inches)
to stick their bills in as they drink. Anyway, ifyou can't poison or trap off Japanese beetles, maybe you should try the ducks.
czechbookblues@yahoo.com

docg
Thats interesting. I heard unless everybody within a 10 mile radius of your property puts MS down it isn't effective because JB's can smell your roses from a very long distance. I have sandy soil and beetles love it. A rose growing friend of mine in the same general area has clay soil and no beetles. I think due to the clay soil.

Re. Milky Spore application.
I have 5 acres and my roses are spread out over about 1 acre. Does anybody know how far JB' range out to burrow in the soil to lay their eggs...or do they tend to lay eggs near their food sourse?
Supposedly MS spreads. How far does it spread from its place of application and how often do you have to treat the soil?

Re. Benificial Nematodes.
I read to use Nematodes until your MS kicks in. How effective are they the first year? When do you apply them to the soil?
Any tips appreciated.

Re. Use of Neem to control Jap Beetles (and other beetles).
I've found it only works on contact. I have also used Rose Pharm (all natural pesticide) for killing JB's and its same thing. By then the damage is done so I've kinda given up on the Neem.
Hand picking is futile with the numbers we have but I do it anyway.
Last year the numbers were so high my 2007 rose crops was basically destroyed.
I have Colorado Potato Beetles ( or CO. Striped Beetle/forget now) that like to attack my herbs and even spraying them directly w/ Neem does not control or repel them. Yes I mix the Neem according to the directions.

Re. Companion Plants to repel bugs.
Never seemed to work for me but I want to try Four O'Clocks.

Re. Blackspot.
Since one really needs to spray (even natural or home remedies) almost weekly before any signs of bs shows up, I've opted to grow only disease resistant roses because frankly I don't have the time to spray all the time. As for which roses are disease resistant its a process of elimination but Hybrid Tea roses tend to be disease magnets so I don't waste my time on them anymore. Rugosas are probably the best for being disease resistant. Some of my roses bs late in the growing season but if they only get a little bit of it and don't defoliate I don't worry about it.
I'm a big fan of Old Garden Roses and Ramblers.
Some of the David Austin roses have done well for me as well but recommending roses is not something I encourage because its subjective to your unique climate and growing conditions.

JMSW
I have ducks (Muscovies), geese and chickens and none of them eat either of the 2 scarab beetles I have here in abundance. Also worth noting is Rose Chafers like to breed in my Willow trees as well as on my roses so the wild birds have easy access to them but I've yet to see any wild birds take advantage of the free feast. I wonder if JB's are like Asian Lady Beetles...taste bad hence the birds don't eat them. My Muscovies indeed keep the mosquitoes and flies down but they don't even put a dent in the JB population so I certainly wouldn't want folks to think they are the answer to control scarab beetles because they certainly aren't in my case. Far from it but they are hands down superb mosquito catchers.

One of my favorite Alba's..."Konigin von Danemark"

This message was edited Mar 24, 2008 8:37 PM

Hi CR,
I love your website. I remember visiting it once before. The duck photos are gorgeous & so are your roses. Though we live in town & in a major metro area, we have plenty of ducks nearby because we are surrounded by protected wetlands & live in a major fly zone for migrating water fowl. Once we discovered a wild duck & her ducklings in our yard. We think that she hatched them under the big shrub wedged between the house and pine tree. We rounded them up & dropped them off at the lake. I wish that we could keep domestic ducks or guinea hens.

GB

CR...........If you are reverting to harsh chemicals because you feel Neem Oil does not work for you then you may as well not consider the use of Nematodes. Your harsh chemicals will do more harm to the Nematodes than the higher life form insects you seek to control. When the insects fall to the ground the non-biodegradable products enter your ground with the same strength as when you applied it. The only factor that changes this is the fact that birds do eat some of the product with the insects. That passes through but may fall to earth elsewhere. Since the manufactured chemicals do not bio-degrade they eventually end up in the oceans of the world where some sizable recorded areas are already biologically dead. Biologically Dead is a reasonably final state for any fromerly living form of life.

In the meantime...........do what it takes to inform yourself to the point you can say I have read and stand on my belief that certain practices will work and be sustainable for ever in or on the acers you are preveliged to care for. Acres Magazine and their advertisers are a very fine way to build on reasonable and correct sustainable practices.

CR
I'm so disappointed to hear your Muscovies don't eat beetles... they don't eat grubs either?
Everything I've read says they gobble up bugs, spiders and grubs like candy.
Although unlike you, I have no personal experience to back up "everything I've read"

I have yet to raise ducks... I want ducks, chickens and goats sooo badly.
(all things in good time - right?)

As for treating with Milky Spore, our property is too large for me to treat it all. I treat the garden areas, then if I have left overs I go about the rest of the property until it's all used up. It helps. Sure the JB will fly into you garden from surrounding areas, but at least they are not emerging at the base of your rose. In time the spore will spread on it's own. As each beetle dies and degrades into the soil the spore will be released from the infected beetle body.
Since you plan to live in your home for years to come, treating with Milky Spore in the spring and fall for a couple of years is a worthwhile endeavor.

You need to make sure you purchase the correct Beneficial Nematodes for the pest you are trying to get ride of.
For grub like pest you need Heterorhabditis bacteriophora. By treating your garden area with bot MS and BN you will create a healthy living soil that in time will greatly reduce your pest problem.

Cheers
Dove

docg.
I don't know why you got the impression I was going to use chemicals.
Quite the contrary. I plan to use Milky Spore and Nematode but on the other hand I'm not delusional thinking this will get rid of my problem with the very high numbers of beetles in my area but if I can cut back on the numbers that would be great!

Dove thanks a bunch for those details.
The ducks would eat grubs but the do not eat the JB adults. They love slugs. They also love to seek out and eat the earthworms out of my compost pile but unfortunately earthworms pass on some type of worm or parasite to waterfowl but so far i haven't had any problems.

Can anybody recommend where to buy the type of nematodes I'll need?


Rugosa "Polaris"

Google gave me the firm of ARBICO ORGANICS. Jennnifer Bauman, Biological Consultant.

Thanks doc!

Where do you all buy Milky Spore and Nematodes from?

I get Milky Spore from Home Depot.
But the BN came from the local nursery, you buy a coupon and mail it in, the company then ships you the nematodes in a sponge that you soak in water to release them and then you spread it about with a hose end sprayer.
Check on line
http://www.arbico-organics.com/beneficial-nematodes.html

BTW, I found the best way to spread MS is with a tube (like a piece of pvc pipe) I walk around the garden and every few feet dump a teaspoon of powder down the tube. It's all very scientific, and requires no bending *S*

Thanks much Dovey for the details.
I like that last tip! ;o)

*wink*

Cottage Rose--your roses are lovely!!

I don't know much about the Milky Spore trade, but picked up some info from a farm cooperative last year about a company that makes them--St. Gabriel Laboratories. I am not aware of other companies, and doing a search, found that many garden suppliers who tout "organic products" will have either meenotoades or Milky Spores. Not only does Gardener's Supply have them, but Amazon.com (of all places) sells Milky Skpores, too!! I am sure your local nursery or garden center will have them if they are "green.".

The company's webiste is:
www.milkyspore.com

The brochure from the farmers conference that I happen to still have (?!!) states the MS comes in two sizes and types: Standard Spore in cans, one application required. A 40 oz. can treats 8-10,000 sq. ft.; a 10 oz. can treats 2500 sq. ft. The Granular Spore requires 3 applications, in spring, summer and fall. comes in a 20-lbs. bag which treats 7000 sp. ft.!!

I used get the neems and organic stuff from Garns Alive!, a mail order firm, but haven't for a long time.

Fox...thanks alot for that info!
Definately on my to-do list for this year.
Last year was the worst on record for beetles!
The JB pretty much destroyed my 07 rose crop. :(