Anyone grow roses organically?

I've recently developed an interest in growing roses & have been jumping in now and then on the rose forum. Being a organic gardener, I would like to find out if others have had success growing roses organically.

I found a book at the library that I've skimmed through and liked so much that I ordered it. It arrived in the mail today and I can't wait to read it; Growing Roses Organically by Barbara Wilde. Hopefully, I'll find some helpful tips in this book.

I'd love to hear about others successes and failures. I plan to try some of the Hybrid Musks, Rugosas, and some of the modern disease-resistant shrubs. I do have a few climbers, grandifloras, & floribundas that have been doing ok without chemicals.

I grow roses organically, greenbrain. I have 4 Hybrid teas that are established rose bushes. Several ramblers, and just added and additional 6 rugosas and 4 minis to my newest rose bed this spring. 4 Knockout roses, with which I am not really impressed, they are kinda blah!
I interplant with marigolds, and nasturtiums. Use Safer Insecticidal soap for dealing with aphid and thrips. I planted garlic in the bed this year to try that. We put in milky spore for JBs many moons ago, so I can get by with using trap crops like four o'clocks to draw most of those off.
I'm eyeballing the Palatine catalog again, sigh and drools.......I prefer the old roses, they are just easier to care for and I love the fragrance and the hips. They are also far more disease resistant than many of the hybrid teas. Because of the humidity here in VA, black spot is a regular occurrence and you just have to keep after at.
I think one of the most important keys to gardening organically is to make your soil just as healthy as you can. The better the soil, the stronger the plant and it helps them fight of pests and diseases.

It's good to hear from someone else who avoids using harsh chemicals in the garden. I bought some Safer Insecticidal soap and sprayed my new potted roses in the driveway before bringing them around any other plants. I'll keep it handy.

More to say, but I've go to head off to church. Was around 60 F here yesterday & did a lot of yard work. Now I'm really sore, so was moving slow this morning. Will be back later. Thank you. :)

I just bought these aphid pheromone lures from Charley's greenhouse...I plan to use them on my hibiscus but they're really designed for roses (I just hope the aphids that love my hibiscus respond to the same pheromones as the aphids that like roses!) http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/index.cfm?page=_productdetails&productid=9995&s=aphid&cid1=-99&cid2=-99&cid3=-99 I'm not sure if they're technically organic or not, but they fit with the spirit of minimizing chemicals, etc.

That's interesting ecrane, I'll have to give those a try.

I never even knew they existed until I was looking through Charley's clearance sale pages, I saw them and thought I might as well try them since I'm pretty much in a constant battle with the aphids on my hibiscus!

Just got home from church & it's 71 F here today, so we're off to the riverside park. Will check back in later. Lovely weather for this time of year! : )

Ok, I'm back from a day of Spring like activities. We had a record breaking high of 73 F today. Broke 1907 record of 67 F. The weather this time of year is usually anywhere from 0 F to 30F; so the temp was at least 40 F above normal.

I haven't had much of an aphid problem. My worst pest is the spotted cucumber beetle. I did see some on my roses last summer. Please let me know if you have a tried and true method of getting rid of this bacterial wilt carrying pest.

I ordered a few products from "Gardens Alive" and had some success. I tried the Surround @ Home Crop Protectant which did work, but was hard to apply because it kept gumming up my sprayer. As a last resort, I used rotenone/pyrethrin (see product link below) with some success which is suppose to control all problematic pests in this area; such as; cuke beetles, JBs (I grow 4 o'clocks as a lure crop), squash bugs, squash vine borers, bean beetles, and flea beetles. I just would rather not spray anything.

http://www.gardensalive.com/product.asp?pn=8659

My town has a city ordinance against composting, so the closest I can get is "Lasagna Gardening". I found this method quite successful for raising vegies, so I plan to build some Lasagna rosebeds this Spring. Anyone else use the Lasagna method?

Didn't think to check with OG until now. Usually consult this website for vegie gardening.

http://www.organicgardening.com/feature/0,7518,s1-5-18-176,00.html

I hope that someone else finds this article helpful. : )

I found an organic garden rose expert that's been right under my nose and located in the Midwest! Writer for Organic Gardening Magazine, Advanced Master Gardener, American Rose Society Consulting Rosarian, and a DG member (paulgrow). See links to OG & DG articles.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/209/

http://www.organicgardening.com/feature/0,,s1-5-27-1209,00.html

A new reason to love both of these websites!

I have had the same half dozen or so roses under permanent course ground wood mulch for over thirty years. If memory serves me correct I replaced two of them. Two died back and came up below the grafts with an acceptable flower. I kept them.

In addition to the wood bark mulch I toss in some coffee grounds and spray the patch with manure and trace mineral based finished compost aerobic tea. Actually the rose bed is close to my tea brewing equipment clean up area. All they get is the bottom of the barrel so to speak. I have been in a no spray situation for most of those years. If I spray I use Neem Oil. This is one situation within all our plantings that have remained 100% organic. The roses are all older types like Nearly Wild. Nearly Wild just will not die! It has been moved accross the county twice to three different locations and back to the present location.

This message was edited Jan 12, 2008 9:14 AM

Thanks docgipe. Sounds like you've had success at growing roses organically for many many years. That's encouraging. I appreciate your good sound advice. I've read about Neem Oil. Going to add it to my shopping list. I also use coffee grounds. Only problem is that my d-d's dog just happens to like eating them.

Nearly Wild reminds me of Ballerina (#1 on my rose shopping list).

I see that the Nursery that I plan to order from carries Nearly Wild and that it's a Floribunda. Right now I'm planning to order a few each of the three varieties listed below. Budget allowing, I'd like to order more. Maybe next year...

Spring Valley Roses, Spring Valley, WI has a good selection of rugosas and hardy landscape roses. I chose them because of the rave reviews in GW about how huge and healthy their own-root bareroot roses are. They're also upper midwest; just east of the Minneapolis area.

Blanc Double de Coubert -- rugosa
Magnifica -- rugosa
Rosa Glauca -- species

All are disease resistant, low maintenance roses with special qualities; such as attractive hips and good hedge roses. Rosa Glauca doesn't bloom continously, but it's colorful foliage and ornamental hips make up for it.

I believe you will enjoy your trip away from the Hybred Tea Roses. I have absolutely nothing against them....I just do not want the care and coddling they require. We love them in some one elses garden. :)

My final decision was made & the order is in. I feel like I can now get on with my life after months of researching nurseries and rose breeds.

Spring Valley Roses in WI got my order: (discount with 3 or more of same variety)

3 Darts Dash rugosas -- thorny
3 Rosa Glaucas (also know as rubrifolia) -- thornless

I plan to make a hedge/mixed border; alternating thorny & thornless. Anyway, now my focus will be on preparing those "$100 holes" and filing my tax return. Of course, there's also checking my vegie seed inventory, but I've been doing the vegie thing for many many years. : )

greenbrain, try growing radishes as a trap crop for your beetle pests. I just pull up the infected plants and destroy them. They work well with cuke and squash beetles especially. I always plant them around my cukes and squash.

I appreciate your advice doccat5, but I do grow radishes as a trap crop. Know of any particular variety that works best? In my opinion, the spotted cuke beetles are just too bad around here because of a nearby pumpkin farm. If you visit the rose forum & read the frustrations that some folks have with JBs, cuke beetles are my nemesis. I believe that the JBs aren't a problem because I grow 4 o'clocks, so I know trap crops to work sometimes.

Then sometimes, it's a matter of finding pest & disease resistant varieties. I've had success with my cukes the past few years because I grow County Fair that's bacterial wilt resistant & Gurney's Burpless II Hybrid Pickling Cucumber that's not favored by beetles. I grow trombone squash that isn't bothered by squash vine borers, cuke beetles, or squash bugs. Of course, this variety grows rampant.

Which pests are troublesome in your area?

This message was edited Mar 9, 2008 9:39 PM

Since I have gone into an experiment suggested by some organic gardening friends I seem to have but a hurting on beetle, squash bugs and squash vine bores. The use of Milky Spore Disease and beneficial neematodes are now possibly credited with near elimination of the unwanted root mining and leaf eating beetle not to mention the fungi they drag around all over the place. It is to soon for me to raise the victory flag with absolute satisfaction. It is not to soon for to say I believe this may have been a succcess for me.

ABRICO ORGANICS has and sells neematodes that "GO SEEK". When applied correctly they move to the larva and attack. Few sources of neematodes have or even know that such neematodes do exist. In so far as I know those neematodes join with your other native good guy neematodes and stay around as long as they are not nuked from the hand of man. They are not an inexpensive quick fix as if any thing ever was.

Ah, didn't realize you were dealing with masses of the critters, greenbrain, you might want to go to row covers or cloches to protect the cukes.

Always hate to disagree with someone who is ninety nine percent right but I must this time. Sorry my new found Virginian friend.

Those many beetle that were mentioned all spend all but a few days of their lives in the soil. Their major damage is root damage from their larva stage munchies. A row cover will do little or nothing but maybe enable them to emerge a few days to a week earlier.

Sometimes.....against organic principle if the invasion is serious one might have to consider use of a smart bomb and then begin rebuilding the soil biology. That smart bomb is sold by AGWAY and others. One of it's common names is Merit. It gets all beetle larva where they do the most damage in the soil. Most fertilizer outlets have a similar product for lawns. That product contains the same chemistry for beetles. No matter how green and pretty the package these are all poison some growers will not use. Letting the soil lay fallow for a year or two will also work. That means no weeds and no growth otherwise to starve the larva by taking away their tender root food. Small properties may not benefit from going fallow because if the larva emerge they will overload near by properties where they can then fly back to you in a jiffy once you provide the food for them after treatment.

How's come Merit is approved in many states for garden use and the same identical chemisty for lawns is not? The answer is the cost involved to have a product rather than a chemical approved. This is sales and big boys applying their muscle to keep others out of the market. Do your homework and you can save many many bucks.

The same differences can be discovered by products used for farm and/or greenhouse use.
The only difference is the name of the product. Research really pays off. It is much like generic medicine for human use. I can not name names or I become liable but you can use your own intellegence and discover this for yourselves.

Thanks for the info docgipe, I was thinking of cucumber beetles, I didn't realize we were talking about a different specie. I too have used Milky Spore, and need to do a renew soon. I found it to be very effective. Most of the JB's I have to deal with belong to one neighbor (my favorite guy also) sigh. The neighbors on the other sides of the property have also treated their lawns, so he's our hold out. I do like to phernome bags on the outskirts of my property right across from his driveway, so he can keep most of his JBs. I wouldn't want him to lose many of those important little critters. evil smile.
Our ext agent recommends row covers or cloches for cover for bad infestations of beetle pests. I prefer to find a non-nuclear way of dealing with the critters.

This message was edited Jan 18, 2008 5:23 PM

I've tried row covers & I need to built some chicken wire frames. The vines I grow vertically on trellises, so it's not practical to cover them.

Since I have a problem with the "spotted" cuke beetles, they arrive in June from the South & stick around during the hot weather & then head back South. I may try vacumming them. I heard others have had success using this method. Just so that I don't suck up the good guys. Have you every tried this method? It would sure arouse the neighbor's curiosity. Oh well, I already have a reputation for being eccentric.

I see that I'm going to have to spend more time on this forum. I've been subscribing to Organic Gardening magazine for 15 to 20 years, so I've always preferred the organic methods. I'm already picking up some good advice on this forum. Thanks to everyone.

Hi, ya'll. Well, I try to garden organically. My biggest problem with roses is blackspot. This is where I sometimes succumb to chemicals because they are effective and prevent the roses from suffering. I try to reduce this by not watering them on the leaves, watering early in the day, and mulching with hardwood mulch instead of leaf compost. That does help.

The other major problem I have had is Japanese bettles. I've considered Milky Spores, but my yard is almost one acre and it is expensive. I would have to start in small sections. Fortunately, the beetles seem to prefer certain roses to others, so only a few would get damaged. I picked them off by hand when I saw them and dunked them in hot water. I also set bettle traps one year and caught so many that this past year, I didn't see many beetles. We also have made the yard bird-friendly and the birds have also helped reduce the infestation.

I am sure some other critter, fungus or diseae will infect them or the soil will foster a problem later. I just take one day at a time. I started with roses 4 years ago, so I have much to find out along the way.

foxfirefly, I feel your PAIN! Those JBs are rude bugs ontop of it! They buzz around your head & try to get in your hair; like those junebugs. Here you are out in the yard yelling at a bug that people from a distance can't see, but they can hear you yelling & see your arms waving around your head.

I was careful to choose rose varieties that were resistant to blackspot. What type of roses are you growing? I picked up a book "Growing Roses Organically" by Barbara Wilde & published by Rodale Press. The advice in this book -- "grow disease resistant varieties" and goes on to provide an encyclopedia of suggested disease resistant roses. You may be able to find this book at the public library. I liked it so much that I had to buy my own copy.

Growing 4 o'clocks as a trap crop really works! The JBs "snack" & die because not only do they find 4 o'clocks tasty, but they're toxic. Just remember that the plant & seeds are poisonous to humans also. They are fragrant, colorful, but can be invasive in warmer climates. Also, they self sow freely. Put the 4 o'clocks in another area of the yard to draw the JBs away from your roses. I grow mine in a narrow border between the fence and driveway near the garage. Here's what Dave had to say about 4 o'clocks & JBs on August 19, 2002:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/329173/


As far as the cuke beetles go, looks like this issue has already been addressed some years back:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/42210/

This thread also discusses using petunias as a cover crop in the vegie garden. Inspiration for "Lonely Little Petunia in an Onion Patch"? I also use the marigolds for nematodes. I have these books: "Carrots Love Tomatoes: Secrets of Companion Planting for Successful Gardening" by Louise Riotte and "The Organic Gardener's Handbook of Natural Insect and Disease Control : A Complete Problem-Solving Guide to Keeping Your Garden & Yard Healthy Without Chemicals" by Barbara W Ellis & Fern Marshall Bradley. Looks like I need to pull them off the shelf & brush up a bit.

I assumed that my change in cuke varieties had something to do with the decreased cuke beetle population. Maybe the radishes were working after all! Maybe next year I'll see even fewer. I probably need to plant even more radishes. The bees like the blossoms too. : )

A forum search brought up years of discussion on the same topics & many in the organic gardening forum. Folks suggested everything from radishes to 4 o'clocks & from vacumming to milky spore. Looks like we're on the right track. I did find an interesting thread that skunks will dig up your lawn at night to eat the JB grubs. I guess things could be worse!

Greenbrain, I have read up on organic gardening some years ago and it has always been my approach. But with roses, um, I am new and organic gardening for roses is just starting to take a niche. There was a book some time ago called "Roses Love Garlic" that I have yet to read. I never heard of 4 O'clocks being a bettle trap and I am going to give it a try though another rosarin suggested hand-picking them and dropping them into the bird feeder. Ha. I can't get my hands on them enough and the birds make a dent, but not big enough. Those beasties can dive into petals and disappear faster than you can say "Squish!"

Blackspot is still a problem no matter what you do. Organic methods only provide for controlling conditions, picking varieties that don't get it or are not susceptible. If you are a rose lover, though, you get roses you want, regardless. The fungicide I use is supposed to be environmentally friendly and is mixed with water and sprayed with the water hose. I don't use an atomizer or mister thing so the fungicide only gets the plants. This treatment is only needed once every two to three weeks in my yard, so I don't feel like I am destroying the planet. But I would prefer not to spray. I do have a couple of resistant roses, and a beloved rugosa. The ones that need fungicide are hybrid teas.

Foxnfirefly, Which rugosa do you have? Does it have hips? Is it thorny? Does it bloom continously? I just ordered my first rugosa & the only experience I've had is trimming my dad's 8 yrs ago just before he passed away. I was trying to keep up his huge yard with all the shrubs, roses, etc... so that the city didn't give us trouble. I had no idea what a rugosa rose was. It's only now that I look back & realize the thorny hedge that I disliked trimming was rugosa; probably Hansa. I only trimmed it because saplings were coming up through the hedge & I was having trouble reaching them. If I'd only known then what I know now, I would have dug up a sucker & taken it home.

Louise Riotte also wrote "Roses Love Garlic". She has a newer book titled "Carrots Love Tomatoes and Roses Love Garlic". I've actually interplanted garlic with my hybrid teas & can't recall having any pest problems. If you don't mind me asking, what do you use for the blackspot? I haven't seen any yet, but just in case. Is this something you spray for prevention?

I'm trying garlic among my hybrid teas this year. VA is very humid, so black spot can be a real nuisance. Use good sanitation around the beds and try to keep the aphids to a minimum. I have several rugosas and a prefer them. They are much easier to care for and a lot more resistant to diseases than some of the others. My Thomas Lipton, is a rambler, single bloom, but throws wonderful hips. Most of my others were newly planted last spring, so that's going to take a little time. I'm experimenting with a lasanga bed under my established roses. I'm going to be interested in what happens this spring. I've had to add to the bed twice since July. And the ground is good ground to begin with. I have a feeling this will help renew them.
Should be interesting.

I'm glad to know that you're are doing the lasagna bed; esp. with pre-existing roses. I purchased "Lasagna Gardening" by Patricia Lanza last year. It's one of my favorite reads. I also purchased at the same time & find it to be another valuable resource "Weedless Gardening" by Lee Reich.

I'm relieved to hear from others who have grown rugosas and are please with them. : )

Greenbrain--my rugosa is called "Hansa," a magenta-colored (but sometimes looks more purple) flowering shrub with arching canes. It blooms in a May flush, then again in August through September. Leave the flowerheads on and you'll have lovely red hips in the fall!! Hansa buds are single or clustered, depending on if you cut the canes, I think. I mistakenly dead-headed mine the first year and, after a late frost last Spring, it seemed to affect the flower production. Some cans broke out in nuge clusters of flowers, while others not at all. You only prune Hansa withen the canes look dead or messy or you need to thin them out. This is a mostly negligible rose. The bonus is the beautiful damask scent which fills the ai!!! I patiently wait for those moments. I plan to get another type of rugosa called "Purple Pavement" in the Spring. It is a hybrid rugosa developed in Germany. The scent is also supposed to be exceptional.

The fungicide I use is called "Ortho." It is a preventive care program. If you allow blackspot to happen, it can get out of hand and spread around, thus requiring additional spraying. So, if you spray to prevent, you only spray once every few weeks. This worked well and I think prevention is the first step to organic.

Just to answer you on the JB--I don't yell at mine since that contributes to noise pollution. They don't speak English, anyway, they speak Japanese. LOL!! I don't want them to know I am coming, either, because they run and hide. I'll try garlic and 4 o'clocks. Thanks for the info on 4 o'clocks and the books!! I know I need to read up on newer approaches.

Okay, I'm not a rosarian, and I don't know much about roses. Nevertheless, I suddenly find myself caring for my parents' rose gardens. They're not organic, but I am, so it matters to me what I'm out there using.

Do you guys not use neem oil for black spot? I tried it with my one climber at home (Joseph's Coat) and had good luck with it, so I tried it over at their house. Some of their HTs aren't resistant, and they are just going to get black spot no matter what. But I've been fairly happy with the results. Neem has to be sprayed more often (once every 25-30 days) than a chemical systemic. But it also takes out beetles, aphids, and thrips, and the whitefly on my gardenias as well. And, since it's non-toxic to me, I don't mind doing it more often.

Just wondering what everyone else uses.

I order from Gardens Alive & decided to try the Soap-Shield TM. I've never used a fungicide before other than orchard spraying, so I don't have much experience using fungicides. I've had for many years now the Rodale Press book, "The Organic Gardener's Handbook of Natural Insect and Disease Control: A Complete Problem-Solving Guide to Keeping Your Garden and Yard Healthy Without Chemicals". I'll have to read up on neem oil. I see that Gardens Alive carries it under the name of "Shield All II" TM and provides the same protection as Soap-Shield TM. Anyway, I'm seeing that fungicides are important in maintaining a healthy garden. I'll have to do a bit more research on the neem oil, but may give it a try.

Thanks for the suggestion. Especially, that the neem oil serves a dual purpose; insect control. I'm also glad to hear that you're doing it the organic way!

Greenbrain, I have been happy with the results from neem. But, that said, I try not to spray at all if I can help it (one of the reasons I don't grow many roses myself). Like many multi-purpose pest controls, it is not selective, and it will kill your beneficial insects along with your pests. So, if you have ladybugs eating your aphids, you will lose them too. But, on the other hand, if you don't have ENOUGH ladybugs eating your aphids...... :)

If you have the nerve to mulch with once ground wood bark about five inches deep your rose bed will in time become much more resistant to all the troubles most have from time to time. I have been under permanent mulch for forty or more years. I have replaced a few but most of my roses are at least thirty years old. To be fair I must say I do not have any Hybred T's. All of mine are older varieties that preceeded the T's. Personally I do not like the consistant care the T's require. Neem Oil is the only help those roses ever got or will get.

To clear up one comment somewhere up in this thread....Neem Oil is an organically approved product that is an insecticide, fungicide and miteicide. I rarely use it because the roses under long term mulch just do not seem to often have a problem. I feed them foliar with kelp and fish oil. That's it.

I'm sorry. I should have explained more. When I say "healthy garden", I meant my vegie garden. I actually bought the fungicide for my heirloom tomatoes that succumb to disease (I believe wilt) before the fruit even ripens. Yeah, the neem oil would be used in the vegie garden; as needed only.

Blackspot hasn't been a problem with my roses besides that I'm planting rugosas this Spring that you can't spray. Yes, I had ladybugs breeding on the catnip that's interplanted with my roses. : )

You will raise the bar against your pathegons as you refine the use of fish, kelp and various types of teas. Mulching is part of the riddle solved. Mulch always helps reduce pathegon movement from the soil surface to your plant leaves.

I use the pine needles from my white pine tree and the free wood chips from the local utility company. I put down a good layer of newspaper first. The newspaper really helped my plants get thru last summer's drought. I also use shredded paper on the garden. My pepper plants thrived mulched with shredded paper (recycled credit card aps).

I have worked with paper (is a wood product) very little. No special reason other than the fact our community provides free aged one year ground once wood chips. If I were to use paper except when using sensitive text I would not shread it. Shredding is extra work. Paper or cardboard remains mulch longer than ground paper products when it is not shredded. In established beds placement may be easier with shredded product.

The reason I like shredded wood is that it remains mulch longer. To keep it in Better Homes and Garden shape and looking that way longer I top off the four to six inches of mulch every two or three years on my flower beds and foundation plantings. These beds have been under a permanent wood mulch for more than forty years at this property. This is my example of no-till gardening.

I do not use wood bark mulch in my working garden where I still till the top two or three inches. If I were to go to a no till method of gardening then I would again use once ground wood chips to hold down the other mulchs and to give me a nice appearance. Presently I use spoiled hay and leaves for my garden mulch. It can be tilled in yearly without causing any concern if returned to the soil in the fall and followed with a cover crop. My four to six inches often rots down to an inch or so over the growing season.

After may years of building soil I find my first four to six inches of garden soil contains about fifteen percent of organic matter. This year it is 20% because I added a load of mushroom compost last fall. It remains dark and has lots of excellent texture for feeder roots. Going deeper from six inches down to a foot deep the average organic content is five percent. Below those levels I ask the worms to report to me yearly. They say life could hardly be better. That works for me. I test my soil's top six inches every year or two mostly to get a read on the organic content and the PH which for my practices should be 6.5 - 7.2. I let the county agricultural agent worry about all the other numbers and frankly I do not ask for his opinion. He has already flat out told me I can't grow in this ground. That is because he is a chemist still playing with NPK numbers to keep the commercial growers using more and more of what I use none. He stopped learning about 1950. He and those like him are still largely supported by the chemical industry the largest non political lobby in the world. At that point and to this day his basic learning is based on what the chemical companies have indirectly paid him to learn and to base his judgement on. MOST not all of the agricultural colleges remain pretty much in the same boat. Meanwhile I continue to grow great competitive quality garden produce that just gets a little better each year. The biological content is nicely ballanced and in a sustainable management position. That is what makes the conversions and ultimately grows the goodies!

Excellent explanation, docgipe!

Hi, I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I have gardened organically in New Mexico and Texas for more than 20 years, and I've always had roses. Roses are very easy in New Mexico--no humidity, no fungus. In Texas, though, I had success with floribundas. I agree w/ Docgipe that careful soil prep is more than half of the battle. I also used Gardens-Alive soap-shield with good results-- and I was not good about regular or well-timed applications. I tried a Mr. Lincoln tea rose (because of memories from my childhood) but it was so much work and always sickly for the one or two blooms a year. If anything it taught me not to bother with anything that doesn't have a certain amount of its own will to succeed. Now back in NM again I have all David Austin roses. I didn't know about them in Texas, but I would recommend them to anyone. They are gorgeous and tough. Thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents!