Can a sealed packet frm Japan contain open pollinated seeds?

I thought my answer to this question I got in a dmail might be useful and that hopefully others would chime in - there are more questions in my *answer*.

With regard to the question about whether seeds in a sealed envie from Japan could have been open pollinated, I don't mean to sound smart-alecky, but watching the goings on in the MG forum, I've noticed that anything is possible.

Most likely, the seeds will be what the packet advertises them as being. But quite a few times they are something different, and as far as I can tell, that can be for 2 reasons: 1) the packet mislabeled them and/or 2) they came from a source where open pollination occurred between 2 or more different cultivars within the same species.

Another thing to consider is that it would be possible for open pollinated seed in a sealed packet from Japan that has been correctly labeled to be true to what the label says. That would be the case if the seed came from a parent descended from 7 (?) generations where the offspring was the same as the parent. All of the generations leading up to the seed in the packet would have had to be far enough away from any other cultivar within the same species that Mother Nature could not have fooled around with the pollen; that is, cross pollinated the seed by bee, bug, butterfly, confused bat, etc.

I wish I could find the post where Atenkley discusses estimated likelihoods of "genetic drift" (the tendency of the genes of a generation to wander from the genes of its parents). Hopefully, he'll come to our rescue here. I seem to recall he said something like ?23%? when open pollinated. But, then, there are questions that come from that about the nature of genetic drift, various conditions under which it occurs and factors influencing it which seem occur to me intuitively.

There is a great post on open pollination by Ron, which also contains links to a couple more threads in increasing complexity - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3885104 .

Hopefully this will be useful to someone, as well as make a link to the coming sticky. And hopefully Becky is still up for administering that sticky. I'm slowly inching along. To folks to whom I've promised seeds, am slowly inching along on that too - am having more trouble with my eyes.

Some cross pollination issues do not become apparent for 2-4 generations. Some commercial packs are probably F1 hybrid crosses and when you start saving seeds and expect your flower to come back you get different colors and patterns typical in a F2 grow out. Some flowers more fixed in their genetic make up and have a high rate of selfing will come back year to year the same if no other JMG are around. Take this same vine that is capable of producing true seeds and let the bees spread pollen. If the bees introduce a dominant trait then you will find the evidence in the F1. You will grow a open pollinated batch and find 1 out of 10 or seedlings look "different". If a recessive trait was introduced then you may not be able to tell for the next generation or two or more. That`s my two cents.

Karen


Karen

Note supposed to be at bottom of first post:

Karen , LMK when you send the seeds. Yours have been sent. If anyone is supposed to get any seeds from me and I have forgotten then remind me please!

I didn`t mean 1 of 10 seedlings exactly but that was a example. You could see more or less changes depending on What happened and only the bees know. :)

Karen, don't feel bad, You are not the only one that is slow here, I've been getting some of Ron's seeds for months... and i'm only at the beginning.. Then when I'm done with that, thank god, I'll be done.

Open pollination is always possible, so, you may get anything from the closed packages.. I've gotten some feathered in the Tie Dyes from Park's closed packages and I beleive they are from Sakata Co. in Japan. But, those surprises are pretty neat. Don't know if you all know that Parks website has not listed the Mt. Fuji packs, however, their catalog does have them for sale.

Happy New Year my friend.

A.

Gourd, I'll bet somewhere - somewhen - back in ancient times - someone was appeasing God with a thank you on the first day of whichever calendrical cycle they were going by - lol. One of my thank you's today has been to water a pot of Ipomoea muelleri I'm coaxing along - perhaps it'll feel the ceremonial intention and give me a noticeable growth spurt - is anyone tinkering around with pollen today?

Karen-05, thanks for the useful info on this subject.

I don`t think even based on my limited experience that all commercial seed packs are created equal. Many JMG commercial packs I purchased in 2005 were Great and I got a few very disappointing seed purchases in 2006-2007. My best advice to Everyone is if the seller or company says No returns or refunds then keep a firm hold on your pocket book. :)

Karen