Lighting Questions

I am going to have to put some lighting in the Rion Greenhouse I have. It is only a GH46 Model, but if this weather continues I will have no choice but to put up some sort of lighting for the winter months.
Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. In fact HELP! I need sunshine big time.

Jberger, I am probably not telling you anything you do not know already, but fluorescent lights have to be quite close to the plant to be effective...within inches. This may require frequent adjustments and is just not practical for larger or taller plants or vines. Look at a metal halide lamp.

JBerger, what is it that you are growing that will need extra light? I'm just curious because many things will just be in your g-house to winter over and not need long daylight hours.

As for fluorescent lights, I agree with SB. If you have very tall plants those may not be the best for you.

I have an HPS light system (still in the box, by the way, dagnabbit!) that I was going to set up in our greenhouse. At some point I realized I didn't need it for what I grow and over-winter. (More'n likely I'll be selling it soon!) Saying that, I wonder what you are growing; that will help determine what kind of light system, if any, you may be needing.

Shoe

I never bother with additional lighting during the winter except when I'm starting things from seed. Even in more tropical climates plants get less light during the winter so I have a feeling you'll be fine unless you literally have no sunny days for months on end.

I start alot of fir, balsam, concolor etc. seeds and also eucalyptus...but you are making me very happy to think I may not need it. I do not want alot of wires out there in addition to what I have already. I am completely happy with no extra light especially is it is not necessary. You have been very helpful and I think You have made my day. If only the sun would shine. It is still raining. Where was this rain this summer when our trees needed it to survive. We lost 60% of the baby fir trees we planted this Spring. Oh well, we still have about a thousand ready to sell but in 5 years we will be out of the tree business if we do not find something else to grow. :)

I don't grow those kinds of trees but I guess if you are in the business of growing/selling them I can see why you'd want to encourage faster growth.

In the natural world (non-ghouse) those trees would do just fine in their normal habitat with natural lighting. (Not sure about your eucalyptus babies though. We had one that grow taller than the house and lived for a number of years but then succumbed to a hard freeze/ice storm.)

Hope you do well!

Shoe

At my age shoe, time is important. : >), but, I am not in that big a rush. I think they do just fine the way it is now. I was just getting crazy with this rainy period we are having and thought maybe I was doing something wrong by permitting them to grow naturally. I would rather spend that money on more Jasmine species. The wondereful part about these forums, you ask and in no time you are receiving alot of thought provoking statements. That is such a big help. Love you all. Back to work.

Yep, I hear ya on the age and time thought! I seem to be slowing down but yet time seems to be speeding up!

I know what you mean by the cloudy overcast days. When it is like that when my Spring seedlings are coming up I often wish I'd taken the time to hook up my fancy light system so they'll keep growing according to MY schedule. Oh well, so far we've all survived just fine!

Slightly off topic, JBurger, do you have a nursery/growing business? If so, where do you sell?

Shoe

If you use a Metal Halide light, how close does it have to be to the plants to be effective?

Nautical

Nautical, it'll depend on your wattage of the light and also on the reflector. Light placement will vary from as close (to the plants) as 9" to 30" for lower watts up to 24"-72" for a higher wattage bulb (1000 watt).

Also, the higher wattage bulbs, since they can be mounted higher and still give you good "growing light" they also give you a larger area of light than a smaller watt bulb that has to be placed close to your plants. (Hope that makes sense, if not, holler back.)

Shoe

Lastly, if you haven't already bought your metal halide bulb then I'd go with a sodium bulb, you'll get more lifetime out of it.

Shoe, I live on a Christmas Tree Farm (open from Thanksgiving to Christmas only for trees), and we grow glads, daffodils, sunflowers, etc. Something for every season at our roadside stand. Since I retired and sold my bird farm, I built an extension onto my Daughter and SIL's farm house and I live privately there. SIL is a VP of a large Nursery here in NJ and they will be closing for good.in a year or so. We are not sure what we area going to do here in the future, but it will no doubt be growing something.

As for my tropicals, they are just my hobby but I am hoping to sell them locally (wholesale only). I am just starting to produce them so I do not know how many I will have come Spring. Just now I have Jasmine ready to go but no place to sell them, so I will hold on to them until I decide. I need to think how I want to move the things I have growing if I do not do wholesale. Any suggestions? I want to specialize in Jasmine. I just love them and they grow so well for me. I do not like retail sales because people make me crazy when they always seem to what something you do not have after they have taken hours to look around. :)

JBerger, it sounds like you might like to visit the Market Growers forum. I have no doubt many marketers would be interested in hearing of your enterprise and will also have ideas to help you follow thru with your goals.

As for selling Jasmine and such, I'll Dmail you soon and perhaps we can help each other. I, too, am interested in Jamines (and gardenias!).

Also, you might want to check out DG's Classified Ads forum. For a very small price you can advertise to quite a few thousand folks there.

I'll be in touch!

Shoe

Shoe,
Thanks for the info. I have not bought anything yet. Not sure I need any extra light, just suspect that I do. I am not specializing in anything, just growing a variety of things and learning along the way.

I will get some measurements and see how much distance there will be between the plants and the light source, then decide if I want a 1,000 watt or maybe two 500 watt fixtures.

Nautical

my understanding is the color of the sodium in better for inducing blooms, while the metal halide is much closer to the color of sunlight and produce better green growth. The operating cost of the halide can add up fast, but can also produce lots of heat, which isn't bad for this time of year. I have three hundred watts of 10000K halides over my planted fish tank. When the lights kick on, you should see all the O2 bubbles rising in the water.

fourks, I bet you've got an amazing fish aquarium! As for the color spectrum and HPS vs halides, the way it was explained to me when I was buying my light system is that sodium lamps (HPS) emit an orange/red spectrum which enhances the fruiting/flowering stage of plant life. Halides (and now also some kinds of HPS lights) are "color enhanced" and those were made mainly for strict indoor use where plants could benefit from the blue spectrum.

So, sodium lights (offering orange/red) are most often used in greenhouses because the normal sunlight that can shine into them provides more than enough of the natural blue spectrum. Metal halides would be used in a building that doesn't allow any sunlight in thereby the plants would need the enhanced color light to thrive.

Nautical, you might want to check out "light movers" as opposed to buying two separate lights. I bought one with my system because I'm a miser but yet still wanted more light on twice as many plants. The light mover is a motorized rod that you hang the light from. Mine is nine feet long but you can get them four feet and 6 ft long also. The light starts at one end and then is slowly moved to the other end, pauses for a while, then travels back to the beginning. This not only allows you to put light over more plants but also stops the plants from only growing in the direction of the light, "reaching" and/or growing leggy. (You've seen how house plants, etc, tend to bend towards the window or other light source?)

Hope this is helpful!
Shoe

Shoe,

That makes sense. Also the time of year one might need to supplement lighting would tend to be in the fall. Thanks for clearing that up. I've seen those light movers in action, very nice and cost effective.

You're welcome, fourks.

As I mentioned above (I think!) my light system is still in the box, never used, because I discovered I don't grow plants that would benefit from the extra light (and the cost involved to provide it). However, I just may keep my light mover and hook it up this Spring when I have my veggie seedlings coming along, especially on those days of total cloudiness (like JBerger has been going thru lately!).

And now, 'tis a wonderful 75 degrees out so off to deliver farm fresh eggs to my customers then hopefully come home and play/work in the garden/greenhouse for a bit.

Happy Day-Before-Thanksgiving Day to all!

Shoe

Enjoy your 75 degrees! Its 14 and snowing here :-(

Hey Shoe, are your eggs brown or white???? We used to have chickens but that is history now. Long story I will share sometime. I killed the cock.

IT IS BEAUTIFUL HERE TODAY......RAIN NOT COMING BACK UNTIL TOMORROW.
Now, the temp in the greenhouse is 89 and the humidity dropped to 43 so I had to open the vents and wet the pebble floor to bring up the humidity. I tell you, this is a pain in my old butt at times. HA! My little seeds are so confused when I walk in the greenhouse I can hear them telling each other that they don't know whether to go back to sleep or grow and spread out. I do make up things sometimes, but I love to talk to them so I pretend they talk back to me and each other. Loony Toons that's me.

Jberger-what kind of jasmines do you grow?

JBerger, I have brown and blue and green eggs. This pic of this particular flat is a couple years old and today's "special" consisted of mostly brown ones not so many green/blue ones you see here.. (Don't care much for white eggs for some reason.) (Hmmm...wonder if you could put some chickens in your g-house; would be great for manure as well as your breakfast!)

fourks, my daughter would MUCH prefer to be where you are. SNOW!!!! Stay warm!

Shoe

Hi Tiger, I am sorry to be so late in answering this question....just really busy right now.
The Jasmine I currently have are Jasmine Sambac "Maid of Orleans";Murraya Paniculata, Orange Jasmine; Jasmine Sambac "Grand Duke of Tuscany"; Cestrum Nocturnum" :"Night Blooming"; Bunfelsia Jamacensis (this is an endangered species from the Blue Mountains of Jamaico); Jasminum humile 'Revolutum' "Yellow Jasmine; Jasmine Polyanthum "Winter Jasmine and Jasminum sambac 'Belle of India". That is all at this time. I am still collecting and there are still many more I would like to have. Space is the problem. I just got the last four and do not have them listed in my information here. I must get time to do that. Thank you for being interested.

Thanks for the reply! I love jasmines. May I suggest J. adenophyllum as a addition to your collection? It is, I think, my very favorite of all the jasmines because of its scent-even better than the Duke of Tuscany. A very vigorous grower as well. Here is a thread that I started about it. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/751564/

I have the J. humile, but it is not the best performer, imo. The blooms are sporatic and the scent is not the strongest, but it is a pretty yellow when in bloom, and it will bloom both summer and winter.
I guess that you are aware that some of what you listed above are not jasmines? Wasn't sure, but if you were going to start selling them, then you probably would want to know that. They are, however, all great plants!

JBerger, that's quite a collection. I'm only familiar with a couple of them but I see that Tigerlily sounds familiar with ALL of them! Yay!

"Bunfelsia Jamacensis (this is an endangered species from the Blue Mountains of Jamaico)". Is that one of them that is not a true jasmine, TigerLily? I seem to always be interested in anything that is endangered or "heirloomish", and would like to find out more.

JBerger, sorry, in my post above I forgot to post my egg pic.
Shoe

Wishing you all many Thanksgiving leftovers for today! Turkey sammiches! Turkey stew/broth (gotta do something with all those bones!) Turkey salad! Turkey, turkey, well you get the picture.

Shoe

Hey Shoe-sounds like you had a good meal, and the makings of a few more! lol

Brunsfelsia is not a jasmine-none of the above that do not have Jasminum in front of them are jasmines (although nicely scented plants-and just as nice). The nightblooming jasmine is really Cestrum nocturnum (love that plant!), Murraya paniculata is another great plant-will bloom all year, but will drop its blooms at the slightest hint of drought, but not a jasmine.

So Rob, you are not a fan of the t5 fluorescents?

TigerLily, I knew the Brunfelsia was not a jasmine but wondered about the Murraya paniculata, They call it Orange Jasmine but I was not sure. The flowers look like Jasmine. The Grand Duke doesn't look like Jasmine to me...is he really? Please let me know which is which because I do not want to look like a jerk if and when I would start to sell these. The people around here would not know the difference but I am sure it could come back and bite me. I would never want to misrepresent anything. I need all the help I can get. Thanks so much. I will be waiting to hear which is which. Thanks again. I guess I should purchase some specific Jasmine books. any suggestions.

I guess on my list of plants I should put these non jasmine under maybe just "smelly good" plants.< grinning> I love this group. I learn so much. Just in time too...I am adding to my "collection" and want it to be a good one.

There are a billion (well maybe not quite!) things that are not in genus Jasminum but have the common name jasmine. So it all depends on whether you prefer to only call things in genus Jasminum a jasmine (I usually call these "true" jasmines), or if you're going by common names then I suppose you could call them all jasmines since they all have that as a common name. If you're selling them, I'd encourage you to include the Latin name along with the common names, that way people who care about specifically what they're getting will know what the plant really is.

Grand Duke is a jasmine in all senses--it's a cultivar of Jasminum sambac.

I am not fond of common names-they tend to confuse more than help. Look at the confusion just in this thread! lol I do think that if you intend to sell them, that the botanical name is the proper way to go and then maybe a common name in parenthesis. I do however think that "good smelly plants" is perfectly acceptable to group your other plants under!

The Duke of Tuscany is one of the sambacs-of which you have three, like ecrane said. They do tend to smell stronger than some of the other jasmines ( smelly good), and can be profuse bloomers. They all love full sun.

Murraya is not a jasmine and here is an example of where common names confuse. Yes, they have jasmine as a common name for it, but also "orange" and it is definitely not a citrus that produces fruit. Same with mock orange-etc.

here is Belle of India this summer. You also might look into J. nitidum-also a nice jasmine to have

What a pretty plant Belle is. Please don't think I am completely stupid, but I get so confused with the genus and the cultivar and the species I could scream. I guess I started out in this hobby too late in life. I agree the botanical name is far better to learn with and follow with the common name. That would be my preference. I will appreciate all the help I can get from you wonderful knowledgeable people. Thanks you again for being so patient with me.

Nobody thinks that you are stupid JBerger! Of all the people here, I murder the pronuciation of any Latin word, and I am sure that all who have talked with me wishes that I would just use the common name! lol me included....but I can't. I don't think I know of any professional-either grower or landscaper that uses common names, as I said, it is confusing-esp when taking orders etc.
The more that you work with and hang out with your plants, the more that you will become familiar with them-names, growing habits etc. Thats the fun of it!
Here is Duke of Tuscany-one of my favorites

I can't wait until my Duke gets that big. Do you remove the dead flowers when they turn brown. Mine turn pink after they are white for awhile. I was not sure if that would help make the plant fuller or not. Mine looks straggly. But it is just a baby.

I'm using several T-5 fluorescents in a grow room inside my house, and I think that they are amazing. My plants are thriving, and they are unbelievably bright. There is no sun in VT, and when I walk into that room, It is like I stepped into the tropics. The lights penetrate well into the canopy and I think are an excellent alternative to HID.

Doug

Hoya, could you please give details of your lights? HOT5? Height? Number?

Doug your winter sounds like mine. Sunlight is a rare occurrence in the winter months.

MollyD

Doug,

I've used T5's above my planted tanks. They work great, and are much more energy efficient!

I don't have the time right now to post all the details of my set up, but I will in the next couple of days. Basically it is an 8X10 foot unused bedroom that I have put mylar on the walls and hung these HOT-5s from the ceiling. I am using this room to overwinter my Hoyas that I have in the greenhouse from May - September. Here is one photo from a couple of months ago; the plants are putting on great growth under these lights.

Here is a little more info on my T-5 setup. It was difficult to obtain information on growing high light tropical plants under artificial lights. I kept going back and forth on whether to spring for HID lights or these new T5s. I opted for the T5s because I thought they would be more versitile - I have some mounted vertically to side light tall plants, and I was afraid of the heat generated by HID. I also have some mounted over windows where I thought they could help supplement the natural light. The lights that I used are from the link that I posted below. They are much less money than some of the HOT-5s advertised. I first found this company on Ebay and they have over 7,500 favorable feedbacks and no negative feedback so I figured they had to be pretty reputable. I ordered directly from the company and saved a little bit over ebay. I am very happy with the build quality of the fixtures. The shipping is faster and better packed than any company that I have ever used. I bought three two tube fixtures and two 4 tube fixtures. They really pump out the light, you cannot look directly into the light.

In my main plant room, I mounted 5 rubbermaid or closet saver five foot standards to the wall, which I use with the 20 inch brackets and shelves. It is infinitely adjustable. On the shelves I have two extra large (20X48inch) boot trays bought from Gardener's Supply Co. I put pieces of PVC pipe into the bottom of the trays to support plastic egg crate that I bought from Home Depot. The trays will have water in them to help provide humidity for the plants. From the ceiling above the shelves I mounted the two 4 tube T-5 fixtures.

I have attached a photo of a two tube fixture hung from the ceiling as supplemental light for some plants.

Doug

High Tech Garden Supply Link to the fixtures that I bought.

[HYPERLINK@www.htgsupply.com]

Here is a picture of one wall of the plant room minus any plants. The light from these fixtures are more than I anticipated. I think that a four-tube fixture could, from my experience thus far, light and area two feet by four feet with as many plants as you could put into an area that big. The lights could probably be hung as high as 30 inches above a two-foot high canopy of plants.

When the lights are placed about eight inches above a plant canopy, the plant leaves develop a real healthy reddish green tone. With the Hoyas that I grow, that indicates that the plants are getting a lot of light. I hope this helps.

Doug