Ipomoea amnicola

I didn't get a chance to grow amnicola this summer but I am intrigued by the seeds. I can't wait till spring!

This message was edited Nov 16, 2007 2:53 PM

One more seed scan....Evolvulus nuttalianus

Very cool looking seeds. Do you have a pic of what the plants will look like?

Ron put photos of the young plant in the Plantfiles:
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/81850/

but no photos yet in there of the bloom.

lol! I was just looking at that! Trying to google and find them.

Supposedly "invasive" in Texas, I cannot find a single photo of the bloom anywhere!

Me either-maybe Ron has blooms on the babies now??? I was prematurely excited a few times and then got to the site ...and no pic!

LOL! I was doing the same thing goggling ... I wanna see some photos of the blooms! Now it has become the mystery vine ... no one knows what the blooms look like! What a tease!!!

That's the fun in growing the species! The only photo of amnicola that I can find is a dried up old stick that is in some botanical collection. I don't know what the bloom will look like.

Not everyone likes the species or even wants to grow them because they are usually not as big and flashy as the ornamental types, but they have their own reward.

Well we will just have to wait then! That will be exciting!-Kath

Now ya know ... I hate NOT knowing! I was the kid at Christmas who used to unwrap my gifts to see what Santa got me and then wrap them back up so noone knew I peeked! LOL! I can't believe there is NO PHOTOS of the blooms! (Sheesh)

There are currently no photos of the blooms or other living plant parts of Ipomoea amnicola anywhere on the web that I can locate...other than what is in the PlantFiles here...

The bloom photos I did locate on the Ladybird Johnson site are not I.amnicola...

Ipomoea amnicola is relatively closely related to Ipomoea pandurata but obviously still a distinctly different species...

I gave the seeds out to several people over the last several years but for 'whatever' reason people don't always follow through or the plants 'fail to thrive'...

So,we'll see what happens this year with this and some other different species...

I'm looking forward to seeing the blooms posted...

TTY,...

Ron

Thanks for the info Ron! We'll all be waiting. Now you have to make sure and grow it Beth!-Kath

I can't wait to grow it, but I know it will have the best chance of thriving if I wait until spring.

The attached photo may be the seedpod of Ipomoea amnicola...someone forwarded the photo to me a long time ago...I had the photo on a floppy disc...

TTY,...

Ron

Great photo. I hope we can grow these seeds out and verify what it is.

I'll be especially interested to see how you germinate them, Beth. I followed the standard soak and bag method with Ron's I. amnicola (E. nuttallianus spent time in a baggy, but no soak) last spring, but nothing germinated. The date germination was attempted was June 20, so it doesn't seem like cool temps were the problem, but still, I think I'm going to apply bottom heat next spring. Also, I did not nick, so that might be something else to do differently.

I find the species extremely fascinating in their own right, and hope more of us on this forum can grow them out.

Ron said that E. nuttallianus can take up to 3 years to germinate, so it's going into its 2nd winter now - outdoors with my other wintersowables. Perhaps a different type of cold treatment would work better?

Oh no! Maybe I better get started on nuttallianus right now. If you didn't have luck with the baggy, I might try to put it directly in the soil. It's good for us to share what works and what doesn't so we don't all try the same thing.

Beth, it was the spring of 2006 that I tried to grow Ron's seeds. The winter of 2006-07 was E. nuttallianus' first winter. It might be that it would prefer a different kind of stratification - maybe time in the freezer? or time in the fridge?

Also, regarding scarification (which I did not do), being as small as those seeds are, perhaps gently rubbing them in a small container of sand might do for nicking? or sandpaper? I know we don't want to nick the end with the eye, so maybe nix the container of sand.

Can you divide the seed into groups onto which to try different methods of germination? I have 5 seeds left, and you are welcome to them (Beth, since you didn't take me up on this, I'll germinate them a 3rd way via frig for stratification - will post method below). It was very disappointing to fail with germinating these seeds first by Emma's method for commonly grown JMGs in June 2006 and then via wintersowing in March of 2007. Maybe the various ways I attempted and failed might give you an idea which way to go with yours.

I just got 10 seeds of I. lindheimeri in trade and 5 are coming to you later in December. I really appreciated your sending me Gypsy Bride.


This message was edited Dec 1, 2007 9:38 PM

Now I am really scared! I don't want to be the only one with these and mess them up. Ron, help!!!! How would these seeds best germinate in nature? If they are from arid regions I don't want to get them too water-logged and chance them rotting. I need to research the weather in their usual range of growth and see if they get freezes, if I can find any info on them!

Here's a link
http://www.sd1new.net/GardenPages/bluedaze.htm
and it looks like this is a prairie plant.
http://www.lib.ksu.edu/wildflower/evolvulus.html

Beth - Erk! - not trying to scare you - I'd love for you to be successful with Evolvulus nuttallianus for my own selfish reasons - hoping you'll send me back some seed :)

Regarding the first link: http://www.sd1new.net/GardenPages/bluedaze.htm - I think this one is mistaken, because E. nuttallianus is hardy to zones 4a - 8b (DG PlantFiles), whereas this link says it's hardy to zones 9 - 11. Also, they call E. nuttallianus 'Blue Daze', but 'Blue Daze' is the name some merchants give as a cultivar of Evolvulus grandiflorus. But, merchants are not taxonomists, and shame on me for using them as a botanical reference. If I have my facts straight this time, there isn't even a species called grandiflorus for the genus Evolvulus; evidently, grandiflorus is sometimes given as a subspecies, but not all taxonomists agree about that. So, will the real species stand up? It's glomeratus, as in Evolvulus glomeratus - http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/194/ .

I think the 2nd link is correct - http://www.lib.ksu.edu/wildflower/evolvulus.html

Here's the research I did 2 springs ago:

Evolvulus nuttallianus - to 12" tall (Hortus III); z4a-8b; sun - partial shade; flwrs violet-lav, mid-summer; lvs velvet fuzzy-textured; mildly acidic; do not overwater; containers
from Ron_Convolvulaceae spring 06 - might need cold stratification*
I keep it in my morning glory box (room temp)
GERMINATION:
1) DG PlantFiles: Wintersow in vented containers, coldframe or unheated greenhouse
stratify if sowing indoors
GERMINATION CODES: #4 & #10-March 15 (See Clothier)
2) no germination details in Clothier, Ontario NARGS, robsplants, B&T, Deno - so, will wintersow half and stratify the other half in ye frig
My experiment: 2/19/07 #5 wintersowed 1/2 in qt-yogurt container

Following are various germination links I have found useful. Some are referred to in the above notes:

Germination Links:

I have Norm Deno's Seed Germination & Practice (2nd edition) here, plus Park's Success with Seeds (1978) and have discovered the following germination websites:
http://www.robsplants.com/seed/germination.php
http://tomclothier.hort.net/
http://www.onrockgarden.com/
http://www.kadel.cz/flora/kvRod.html
http://www.b-and-t-world-seeds.com/index.htm - gets high marks
http://www.rmrp.com/
http://www.rareplants.de/shop/default.asp?
http://www.theseedsite.co.uk/germination.html - not considered consistently accurate
(lots of campanula species on this one)
http://www.thompson-morgan.com/en
http://www.backyardgardener.com/tm.html
(this one only does campanula as a genus, but you might like to have it for future reference)
http://earthnotes.tripod.com/index.htm
(ditto foregoing)

Hope this is useful

Karen

* If my memory gets any facts here incorrect, please feel free to correct me. Evidently, since E. nuttallianus is cold-hardy to zone 4a, and these seeds are said to have originated in Colorado, seeds of this plant are not only used to cold moist conditions over winter, but treating plants from this kind of habitat with moist cold normally cannot hurt them. (Evidently, the cold moisture will denature the abscisic acid in the seedcoat, thus facilitating germination. For a beginner's primer on abscisic acid, see http://www.tutorvista.com/content/biology/biology-iv/plant-growth-movements/plant-growth-movementsindex.php ).

So, combining various tidbits of information from different sources with what I have just been advised, prepare a container with sand over which you pour boiling water 3 times, drain extremely well and cool. Surface sow your seeds (some of which you have nicked on the end that does not have the eye - try sandpaper) and barely cover. (Soaking seed prior to stratifying in cold in general and soaking small seed like these in particular is thought to be a bad idea, but who knows if these seeds could be the exception.) Place in a baggy and put that in your refrigerator for about 6 weeks.

If we try to simulate a Rocky Mountain spring, then we will time this so that the seeds come out of the frig while spring temps are in daytime 50s. If you go with this option; that is, timing emergence from frig so that seeds can go outdoors in spring, take the baggie off (sunlight + plastic = fried seedlings) and be sure to water from the bottom every day and always drain as soon as you detect the top of the container is moist.

Or, if you decide to move the seeds from frig to an indoor shelf, keep the baggie on and don't let the container dry out - again, if you water, do it from the bottom and be sure to drain well immediately. At this point, I don't know whether bottom heat would be a good idea or not. Ideally, we would have enough seeds to try all the possible permutations given here if not others as well.

I was also advised that we should not expect all the seeds to germinate at the same time. Mother Nature has built-in accommodations for the Oops Factor in many of her seeds; that is, somehow seeds *know* that as a group they need to stagger germination in case something happens to wipe out the first seedlings, and so on. I seem to recall that Darwin called this phenomenon "variation of the species" and explicated it with regard to finches on Galapagos Island, if my memory is cooperating here. (See Origin of Species - http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/d#a485 - free and online. Unfortunately, in some of Darwin's writings, he was a product of his time with regard to issues of race and gender, so you have to wade through some unenlightened stuff regarding the idea that all men and women are equal in terms of human rights.)


This message was edited Dec 1, 2007 10:24 PM

Edited to say that the following was written before revision to http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/editpost.php?pid=4235787, but am leaving it as is since there are some other useful tips for germination of species from arid habitats. Drainage can never be emphasized too much.

Ursula is very good with germinating seeds from arid environment. Look at the seed starting mix she uses here: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/84226/

I don't know about using compost, but 1/3 each of sand, peat & sterile seed-starting medium might be a good idea. (I tried germination in June of 2006 with something like Jiffy mix - should have used more sand).

Last winter, I adapted Ursula's seed starting mix as above, but also included Perlite, and topped the whole business off with a thin layer of sand. This was very successful for many genera, including various sages from arid environments as well as various primrose species from wetter backgrounds. The primroses and sages did have in common that they both really liked good drainage, which is probably true of Evolvulus nuttallianus.

I'll dmail Ursula for her input here - might make this thread valuable for future reference.

Will rattle Frank's cage too -

Karen

This message was edited Nov 28, 2007 2:19 AM

This message was edited Dec 1, 2007 10:29 PM

Frank and I aren't exactly in arid conditions here, LOL!

No, but I like the way he approaches a problem; he can be pretty inventive.

Same note applies to the following as the note at the beginning of this post - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4235997 . Drainage.

One thing you may be doing differently from Ursula for a plant from an arid region is to fend off excess rain/moisture. Germinating indoors certainly comes to mind, but I did see an interesting design of a cold frame that has a top open not up - but north in the upper hemisphere of earth and south in the southern hemisphere. I googled Nearing Frame and came up with this design: http://www.eskimo.com/~enumclaw/Tips/Propagation/Making%20a%20Nearing%20Frame.html .

It could be adapted for seed, and materials & dimensions could vary. You would need to pay attention to how water accumulates or drains into it - perhaps your box could be above ground, filled with sand to at least 8", with very good drainage holes (Wintersowers have been known to use those transparent or translucent storage boxes). But the main thing is not to have the top open to the top where drenching rain can come in, but north instead.

Just thinking out loud.

This message was edited Dec 1, 2007 10:31 PM

I wonder if one of those small "greenhouse" lids for germinating trays would work, too.

A greenhouse lid might help. A baggie used to enclose a 4" pot with a well-draining medium as above would be easier to move around from an initial 6-week period in the fridge to a shelf under grow lights.

The following is probably redundant to the germination technique I added at the bottom of here - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4235787 . But this may not be the last time we may need to try different methods of germination on an unusual MG, so I will leave it.

It would be nice to have enough seed to experiment with different kinds of stratification (exposure to cold), so that different lengths of exposure to cold could be experimented with as well as modes of stratification; that is, trying exposure to 1) consistent temps of a fridge and 2) oscillating temps of winter outdoors either with container exposed to precipitation 2a) from above or 2b) from the north. 2b) might be more helpful for seed of a plant from a semi-arid region that might rot in heavier rains of your locality. And then there's trying to germinate these seeds with and without bottom heat, with and without stratification, with and without scarification, etc.

If we knew what others had tried, that could narrow the range of alternatives here.

Since we don't have enough seed to conduct all the different trials, maybe it's best to focus on the aridity of its natural habitat and recommendations like stratification. I would scarify some of the seed, but not all, especially in tandem with stratification.

Hope I haven't confused more than helped.

This message was edited Dec 1, 2007 10:36 PM

ps - If Ron never shares another seed with me again, I have to thank him - sincerely - for a great learning experience. Failing with some of his seed was the impetus to look for answers and learn what I have shared here in the process.