IMPORTANT!!! Seed harvesting question .....

I hope someone can answer my urgent question:

My seed pods are ripening now. I have been removing very ripe pods and some that are almost ripe. I had a few of the pods burst open and I lost the seeds, so I have been trying to harvest them right before they get to that point.

The ripe seeds are very dark in color, smaller, and very hard. The almost ripe seeds are more plump, more of a medium to dark brown color, and not quite as hard as the more ripened seeds. (See photo. All seeds are from the same vine. The smaller seeds are from a completely ripe pod. The larger seeds are from an almost ripe pod.)

Am I making a mistake to harvest some of the pods before they are completely dried up and ready to drop the seeds? Will the larger seeds continue to dry, shrink, and harden? Are they viable seeds if picked before the pods are ready to split open and drop the seeds?

Thanks for any advice and information in advance! ~Becky~

I harvest the "nearly ready" mature seeds. I think the very last step that the plant takes is dehydrating the seed, which can be done in any dry atmosphere. I have not had any trouble germinating them, but I do make sure they are dried out before I put them in a plastic bag because the extra moisture could encourage fungal growth.

They should look brown and be nearly dry. Paper bag brown is ideal but you are right they will get lost if you don`t get after them soon enough. If you lightly scrape the top and it is still oozing fluid or you see any green on the pod I`d leave it a few days longer. I gather mine in the small brown lunch sacks where they are allowed to dry in thin layers for a few weeks before they get sorted and stored.

Karen

This message was edited Oct 18, 2007 11:51 AM

Thanks Beth & Karen!

Have either of you .....or anyone else here ...... used raw rice added in the plastic baggies to absorb moisture? I've been thinking of trying that. Right now I have them in paper envelopes wrapped in paper towel to help them dry without attracting fungus.

I never use plastic bowls or bags for storing morning glory seeds. I only use paper envelopes filed in a droor or a square plastic tub. Another way is putting them in paper boxes stored in plastic tubs. I do hear people say there are no worries once they dry so I do send the completely dry seeds in the plastic envelopes. I am too paranoid to store them long term in plastic but that is just me. :)

Karen

This message was edited Oct 18, 2007 11:52 AM

Becky - ditto Beth

I've used rice before and it worked wll for me...

TTY,...

Ron

Ditto. I harvested the seeds from the pots on the porch a week ago, and just instinctively stuck them in a zip lock, expecting to get back to them in a day or so. They were quite wet, and a day turned into a week. They not only mildewed, but the temp change bringing them into the house, caused many to sprout. What a waste. Air air and mor air is what they need. Like Beth mentioned, I also just harvest the lot and toss the dross later when I clean the seeds. This way I always get all that were ripe. Frank

beckygardener (and good to see you posting again Frank!),

The dry atmosphere Beth mentioned is trouble for us here because of our humid climate. I cannot store in plastic without risk. The last two winters thoroughly drying either on a flat plate in the open or in a thin layer in a paper sack followed by storage in the paper sacks and paper envelopes stored in droors and plastic tubs was successful. Vent holes are helpful and I sometimes leave the lids off but a sealed plastic container will protect the seeds from bugs or anthing that would want to eat the seeds. I seal the containers after they have had time to dry thoroughly.

I don`t mind sending seeds in the little plastic zippy bags because the seeds are throughly dried by then but for myself and with one dollar a piece seeds I will store them in paper filed in order by names written on the packs in plastic containers with lids on them. I think I`ll try alphabetizing them in categories this year. So far so good. :)

Karen

This message was edited Oct 18, 2007 11:38 AM

P.S. Always spread the seeds out in a thin layer to dry them right away after harvesting to prevent mold or sprouting before their time. Karen

This message was edited Oct 18, 2007 11:41 AM

Ditto to above. Here's a great pic of ripe pods -
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3560541
You just want the brown & crispy one as stated above.

Gourd had a great idea about avoiding loss of very valuable MG pods to shattering: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4017486

Frank - Woot! glad to see you back

Karen

This is another good thread and it also looks like material that could be used for the sticky. :)

Karen

I could imagine rice being a grain would absorb the water and start to mould. It's not huge amounts of water that you'll be dehydrating, of course, but rice did not work for my experiments with Amaryllis chips in the past, as I had assumed. I now use desiccant silica (the little packets that you'd find in new bags or suitcases) or active carbon for dehydrating.


Martin

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions and information about my seed harvesting question.

I have been harvesting seeds every day now this week. I have them labeled by a letter which corresponds to the name of the MG vine they came from. Each vine has it's own cup to dry seeds in with the matching letter on the front. I have a piece of sheer tulle secured over the tops of each cup just in case they should get knocked over. (I know how Murphy's Law works!)

I have each of the vines separated from each other, so I know for sure what vine each pod came from. But .... the interesting thing will be to see if there are any crosses!

Also ...... much to my relief....... my Yaguruma Blizzard is producing about 4-5 seeds per pod. I am so happy!!! It is my favorite MG vine of all so far this growing season!

And I have all the cups nice and cozy in a plastic bin all inside in a/c to help them quickly dry with a little bit of paper towel and rice in each cup! I'm not taking any chances! LOL!

Is it possible to have different looking seeds from the same vine? Would a cross between cultivars cause that to happen?

Also, is there a thread or link to what the different species of MG seeds look like?

This message was edited Oct 18, 2007 11:17 PM

Oh boy Becky. You have SOME mg seeds there. I'm thinking you might have a serious mg addiction going there. LOL.

Joanne

Joanne - Definitely an addiction!!! Those small amount of seeds in each cup are just the beginning of my harvest of seeds. You should see all the pods that I am waiting on to ripen!!! LOL! Though some vines have either few or none so far. I have one vine that I don't think I am going to get a single seed from. :-(

Everyday after work, I sit on my porch and pop out the seeds from each individual vine's seed pods, careful to put them in the correct cups! It takes me about 2 hours each day! And in the mornings before I go to work, I walk around with small paint brushes to try to pollinate each flower! I also water them daily and inspect them for pest or disease. It's a never ending labor of love! My only gripe .... it's still very hot and humid here. If the temps would drop about 10 degrees ..... I'd be delighted! Of course, that would probably slow down the seed production on each vine. Such fun! I think that attitude is what makes me finally believe that I am a "gardener"! LOL!

ooh, that last one is very nice.. put me on the list for that.. Please.

here is a photo of the envelopes that I put the seeds into to dry, they are written on with pencil and tabbed by I. nil, I. purp, species, and crosses (and have tabs within those tabs such as shibori, fuji, feathered, etc..)

then when they are dry, they go into either plastic baggies for trading or smaller coin envelopes for storing for my stash... then I hope to be able to put them all into containers that will follow.

The boxes of white envelopes that come by the 100's at the $dollar store work perfect also to collect and dry seeds, you can seal each empty envelope, then once they are all sealed, cut off one of the edges and stand it up on it's side and you have one long envelope, you can write whatever you are collecting and put them in alphabetical order... after that, I empty them into their homes when they are dry or the envy is getting too full. I used those for several years, now I decided to splurge and get some of the coin envys in different sizes for storing.

I may need more containers for the veggies and flowers/vines, but probably one will do it for those, definitely will need another one for mgs I think.

Here are the containers, pretty handy. I like them, just got them last night, so I haven't gotten started.

A - You are already on my trade list for the Plum Shadows! I shall be sure to share some seeds with you for that one!

Great set-up. I was also using paper envies for all my garden bed seeds and had a bunch packed together in a box. Apparently they were packed so tightly together that one of my envies of freshly picked Datura seeds developed mold. So that is the reason I am drying my MG seeds in cups instead of envelopes. I was surprised that it happened as I just assumed that paper would allow air flow around the seeds, but those particular seeds must have been pretty damp for that to happen. And being so tightly placed in the box must have prohibited air flow. Once my seeds are dry, then I shall packed them all into envies until I bag them up for trades or for my own seed stash. :-)

I like your containers! Perfect for seeds!! Thanks for sharing your method of seed collection and sorting! I also like the coin envies. I have been using regular mailing envelopes, but I bet the coin envies are thicker and sturdier!

BeckyGarnder

Look here!

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/484188/

Thanks, Sandy! Interesting thread from QueenB. I don't know if that thread answered my question or not about different shaped seeds from the same vine. About 6 or so vines are producing both round (almost looks like an I. purpurea) and half moon shaped seeds (I. nils). All dark colored seeds, of course. The round seeds are a single seed from a pod whereas the half moon seeds come from a pod of 2 or more seeds.

I was reading on Yoshiaki Yoneda's "Morning Glories Database":
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/menu.html
about crossing species of MGs. One article in particular talked about crossing I. nil X I. purpurea with a Japanese I. nil. Some of the vines had blooms that looked like my Fuji Hot Pink Frost vine. Some of my seeds from that vine look mixed. Cocoa Chocolate was another one off the top of my head with interesting looking seed mix.
http://taxa.soken.ac.jp/Asagao/E/relatives/04_3.html

This was what made me wonder. I am thinking I should grow one out of each of the two different looking seeds to see what the blooms look like. Maybe they will look the same or maybe a different gene will show up or maybe it was a cross during my current grow-out.

Becky - You assked
"Am I making a mistake to harvest some of the pods before they are completely dried up and ready to drop the seeds?

It's certainly better to allow the seeds to fully ripen and dry on the vine...

Will the larger seeds continue to dry, shrink, and harden?

They usually will but they most often do it better in their natural seedpod covering...

Are they viable seeds if picked before the pods are ready to split open and drop the seeds?"

If the seeds are matured enough and only personal experience will teach you this so you have the best idea about it...

Generally I definitely prefer to allow the seeds to fully ripen and dry in the seedpods...

There are some gardeners who may have a different opinion,e.g., their experience is that the seeds dried out of the pods are 'larger' and take up water quicker...

The seeds that are removed from the seedpod somewhat prematurely and dried out of the pod may indeed retain a larger size and hydrate easier...but there is a very good reason that the seeds shrink down completely in size...the seedcoat acts to protect the viability of the seeds by retaining vital moisture and by preventing the easy access of pathogenic organisms...

Seeds that have fully dried have a denser less permeable coat and this helps to retain viability in the longrun and to prevent easy penetration of pathogenic organisms...

You can do the harvest them early routine for a more permeable seedcoat and you might 'get away' with it but it is putting the seeds at greater risk of infection and the seeds will definitely not retain their viability for as long with a very permeable coat that allows excessive amounts of vital moisture to escape...

The different seed shapes you are referring to is most usually simply the result of the number of seeds that develop in the seedpod...pods with alot of seeds pressing against each other will produce seeds with flatened sides and pods that have only 1 seed will produce a rounded seed because there are no other seeds in the pod to press against the sides...

I am sharing my opinion based on my own experience and others are certainly entitled to differing views on the subject...

TTY,...

Ron

Great info on this thread. Gourd you're such a smart cookie with the seed bags.
:) Donna

Ron - Thanks for the info and your opinion about harvesting seeds early. Some of the seeds I have harvested are a little larger when I add them to the cups to dry. But I have noticed that they do shrink down and appear to match the size of the naturally ripened seeds. I am hoping that their seeds coats are just as dense and equally less permeable. They do seem very hard after they have dried. Which takes another day or two in open air. But .....what do I know?! I have found a number of empty pods that must have dropped the seeds. A bit of a bummer! That is my only reason for harvesting them a day earlier. I tried covering the pods with a nylon sock. When I went to remove them they were mush. We've had so much rain lately that I think the sock was causing the moisture to be retained by the pod instead of allowing it to dry out completely which must of rotted the seeds. So I am not doing that anymore.