How Cold Can MG's Handle

We just had a weekend with record high temps (in the mid to upper 80's), now tomorrow's high is supposed to be 55. My white Hige is loaded with seeds that aren't quite ready yet. Will the cold finish off the plant before the seeds mature?? It's supposed to be back in the 60's by the weekend. I don't think I can bring it inside, it's hanging on to the fence pretty tight!! If I cover it overnight will that help? I realize it's just a matter of time, but I was hoping to get these seeds to mature first.

Another question, on the same plant. If I cut it back, off the fence. Will it survive inside, or is this a true annual that will die off after it sets seeds?

Deb

Deb, we are having the same kind of weather, as long as there is no frost the seeds will continue ripen. Covering them certainly won't hurt!!

You can also cut the stems and put them in water inside at a sunny window to continue to ripen.

Morning glories do well inside under lights but you are better off starting them fresh rather than digging them up..

Deb, ditto to luvsgrtdanes. If the weather clears in wee hours of Friday night with forecast 43*F, we could get frost. And that would be curtains to any MG seed we're growing.

Since I'm not willing to take that chance, I'm starting tomorrow to cut stems with pods to continue ripening indoors in bright light with a minute dab of hydrogen peroxide added to the water to safeguard against slime. It worked very well last year - pods were already burgeoning outdoors and turned a perfect crispy brown indoors. I air-dryed the seed a couple of weeks before sharing or storing. If I didn't have so many vines, I'd wait till last minute.

Tip cuttings can be rooted, but the problem I have with that is rust. So far, I have not used chemicals on MGs here, and even though I couldn't see the rust on those cuttings last year, it piggybacked indoors anyway.

It's amazing what you can do with a plant if it thinks it still needs to set seed. This could be a perfectly rotten idea, but - suppose you cut off the parts that have flowered or set seed (put those in water to ripen). The idea would be to only cut back to those newest, most recent side shoots, and to be sure to cut off any remaining flowers or seeds. Now, you have a plant that thinks it needs to set seed, and theoretically would be all gung ho to romp along a few more weeks making more shoots and flowers and seeds. Hope this isn't one of my tsk-tsk brainstorms.

Thanks both of you for this thread - After last year, I know my pods will be fine, but still...

karen

What is rust? Is that the reddish brown spots all over the vine? I that was what killed a group of my vines this year.

Eva, yes - rust is those reddish brown spots that uglify and do in the leaves. There are some here who apply either foliar sprays or systemic granules (and/or drenches) to remedy that.

When it comes to plants that cannot be grown without those chemicals, I do not judge anyone who uses chemicals to keep them in existence. However, between me and me, I don't see why I need to contribute to the chemical mayhem already let loose on this globe.

So, Havahart cages, deer fencing, basic garden hygiene & composting aside, I let the organisms out there duke it out among themselves.

And we still enjoyed the beauty of JMGs (and others) from germinating to burgeoning of those lovely cicada leaves to dappled light illuminating the vines over the arbors to the flowers to pods. I just pick off the diseased leaves, and meanwhile, new shoots start up with healthy leaves for a while and the cycle keeps going.

I think that if you grow a plant for its flower that has such an atrocious end-of-season appearance, you need 3 things:

1) a passionate love for that flower
2) all cameras banned within a mile's radius of the debacle your garden has become
3) the resolve that next year you'll do better balancing foliage among the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

karen

I've had MG growing in my greenhouse withstand temperatures in the upper 30's low 40's at night and 90's in the day and still put out flowers.

X

My MG's in containers withstood a couple of nights of "light" frost at -1C (30 F), but we had a "hard" frost of -3C (27 F) and that finished them off. My Sunrise Serenade bloomed right until the bitter end....

Joanne

X & Jo, was the quality of seed exposed to temps from upper 30s to 30 not affected by those temps?

Not that I noticed.

X

blue, not sure. the seeds look fine, but I haven't tried to germinate any - I guess that will be the true test....I was going to give all the seed away, but now that I think about it, I should probably try germinating a sample of it first. Thanks for planting the thought...

Joanne

Nothing like a possible loss of MG seed pods to afford the opportunity for experimenting. Good thinking, Jo. I'll assign a "sacrificial vine" to the cause and see what happens to its seed at whatever low temps appear in the next couple of weeks. Could you folks (and any curious lurkers) also record upcoming low temps in your area/garden and collect sample pods on the morning of each low temp to see how they come through?

If the pods are not brown & crispy yet, then it would be great if you could continue ripening them in water (labeled with date & name of MG). Then, whether the pods were already ripe on the vine or ripened indoors, you would try to germinate some sample seed to see what happens.

After each dangerously low temp, leave some pods on the vine for future lows so that we can get a series of correlations for insight into the range of temps to be justifiably nervous about.

Ron or anyone more knowledgeable than I, is there anything else we can be looking for like certain characteristics of pod or process of experiment? There's probably more than just the temp involved here.

Many thank you's in advance to anyone who'd like to pursue this with me.

karen

Karen - The critical temperature range seems to already have been established for everyone and that is the temperature where water freezes +/- a few degrees...so knowing that(!) I don't gamble and/or take chances with leaving any seedpods unprotected when temperatures are close or may be close to that range...

The humidity is an additional factor to consider and seedpods and/or other parts that incur any accumulated humidity will be at greater risk of damage than those plant parts that have a completely dry exterior...the humidity will freeze and cause cellular damage to superficial cells as well as to cells that are deeper in the plants tissue...

My personal approach is not to gamble with seedpods that I consider to be of personal value when the critical temperature range has already been established and is also very narrow...it's better to try and save whatever seedpods you have a bit early than to risk losing them all because you gambled on the occurrence of temperatures within such a small range...

TTY,...

Ron

Is there anything I can do to save green seedpods short of keeping them in water inside? I don't have the equipment that would take, and I have lots of seedpods that aren't ripe. We're expecting freezing weather soon.

If the immature seedpods remain outdoors in temperatures that are freezing and/or below freezing they are doomed...

I would pick the most developed seedpods and dry them indoors...some seeds that are grren but still developed enough(!) can remain viable and sprout...

There is no other 'magic'...the reality is the seeds must be able to mature enough otherwise the cold will turn them to mush...

TTY,...

Ron

Thanks, Ron. I'll try that and hope for the best. Doesn't look like frost for at least a week, maybe some will ripen before that. Seems to me that last year they ripened a lot sooner. Dunno what happened.

Speaking of pods not ripening before frost, here's a thread of Ron's on inducing flowering early by controlling light - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/575043/

Just to throw a little odd thing into the pot. Over in my bit of england we get lows in winter of around -15oC maybe only a night or two at that but enough.
Normally all tender plants are finished off.
Last year i grew a variety called "split personality" i collected lots of seed and didnt mind leaving the plants to finish in the frosts. This spring i had thousands of self sown plants. I pulled most of them up but left a few and yep they came true.

But all other mg's i grew didn't do the same.. I guess there must be a couple of varieties that the seed can take the cold without dying.
I guess it will be something to do with the water content or something!

Mike

Well, so far no frost, and the Hige is still blooming away. I think with the cooler weather I am getting more blooms each day than I did in the summer. I'm just watching the weather forcasts, and if it is supposed to be below the mid 40's at night I have been covering it. Days have still been upper 50's to as high as 70.

Thanks for all the information.

Deb

I had a Wine & Roses that self-seeded and came up again this year, and last year we had the coldest, iciest winter we've seen in years. Blizzards every weekend for 7 weeks, snow that was still in the streets rutted with ice for weeks. I'll see about the seed pods which are currently experiencing 39 degree rainy weather.

This thread was so informative for me! Thank you Deb for asking the question and starting this thread!!! :-)

Mike - How many of the volunteer seedlings were from self-sown seed that ripened before the killing frosts(?)...you don't really know or couldn't say for sure...

I'm aware that Ipomoea purpurea is more cold hardy than many other species but if the immature seeds get frostbiten before they are dry >they are worthless(!)...I've played around with all types of I.purpureas...

Once the Ipomoea purpurea seeds have naturally dried they can take the cold and won't sprout until the weather is right...Ipomoea tricolor seeds may ripen and dry,but they have not evolved to survive the repeated wet thaws and refreezes the way I.purpurea,I.hederacea and a few other cold hardy annuals have...

Err on the side of caution...

TTY,...

Ron

Hi Ron,
You want to know how many seedlings grew from the self sown! Well i'm not going to count them all but its hundreds!
I think i still have some of seed i saved as i never bothered sowing any..not when i saw these coming up.
The self sown guys are still flowering..some have the serrated flowers and some look like they reverted back to single blooms.
If you asked if they where ripe i guess most of them... as they flowered untill the winter killed them...i only pulled them off the fence in spring.

So am i thinking you are saying once ripe purps can handle being frozen?

If so i could accidently release these into the wild!

Mike

I'm guessing that's true. Many of us have MG vines coming up from year to year, and I live in a pretty cold zone. So the seed must have ripened and dropped into the soil, overwintered and then germinated when the soil warmed up enough. I think mine germinated this year in late June.

Does anyone know how cold they can take once fully ripe?
What is the hardiest variety in both plant form and seed form.

Mike

I believe people winter sow them, so they at least some of them must be able to take extreme cold. I'm going to experiment with winter sowing them next year, but I may stick to I. purpurea based on Ron's comments.

Joanne

Mike - You asked

"So am i thinking you are saying once ripe purps can handle being frozen?"

Yes

"Does anyone know how cold they can take once fully ripe?
What is the hardiest variety in both plant form and seed form."

They have been frozen in liqiud nitrogen and still sprout so I'd say they can take any cold temperature...

The hardiest I.purpurea seem to be the ones with the darkest colors...

Ipomoea hederacea is also very cold hardy as is Ipomoea nil that have been selected for cold hardiness...
The Ipomoea nil Minibar Rose type with the large seeds and leaves is very cold hardy...

Ipomoea coccinea,I.cordatotriloba,I.hederifolia,I.lacunosa,I.leptophylla,
I.pandurata,I.sloteri,Merremia sibirica are all very cold hardy

Convolvulus arvensis,C.tricolor,Calystegia sepium and Calystegia spithamaea are also extremely cold hardy but can be invasive although in the coldest climates they don't have too much time to do much invading...

TTY,...

Ron

Ahh calystegia..isnt that the pain of my life , bind weed?

Funny how colour is linked to cold hardeness!

Would be worth someone breeding a hardier or certainly more resistant variety to handle the cold and wet, especially for us english folks. With such a short season some varieties just won't grow enough to flower.. like alba...i have given up with.

Mike

I. Purpea self seeds here in zone 4a. Low temp here last winter was approx. -20F. That's almost -30C. I neither collected seeds, nor planted leftover seeds from last year, yet I had plenty of vines with nice dark purple flowers on them this year.

Ron, thanks for listing those cold hardy MG's. It's going to help me select the MG's I decide to winter sow.

Joanne

I, too, appreciate the list of cold-hardy MG vines! Thanks, Ron!!!

Mike - You mentioned

"Would be worth someone breeding a hardier or certainly more resistant variety to handle the cold and wet, especially for us english folks"

You're there,you have a greenhouse and...well looks like the person to do it is >you(!)...

TTY,...

Ron

lol..yeah i mean someone clever!

Do i have to build a new greenhouse this spring just to grow mg's in?

Mike

The lone germinator of 10 MG seeds that had been exposed to -5C (23 F) a couple of nights. (Used the coffee filter in a baggy method).

I have a bunch more seed that I collected from my MG's this year that would have been similarly exposed, but I'm going to hold off testing their viability by trying to germinate it until March or so. Maybe the nine seeds that didn't germinate this time knew something that the one guy didn't...



This message was edited Nov 4, 2007 2:51 PM

And here's the seedling today... It only has a few true leaves, but it bloomed today. The bloom is very small; I was amazed to see it forming. Poor little thing is only getting natural sunlight from a South facing window.

Joanne

I missed the actual opening, assuming it did. Darn work sure gets in the way of life some times. LOL.

This is a shot of the bloom tonight...

Way cool, Joanne! I haven't attempted to grow any indoors, but love what you are growing! Congrats on success!

Thanks Becky. The ones I'll start under lights will do much better of course; I've just been holding off until February or so, otherwise I'll have a jungle inside the house! I really didn't expect this guy to do anything much. Ü

But I'll bet your little plant sets seeds. These plants always fascinate me with their will to procreate the next generation!

Yes, well it might have if I hadn't pulled the flower off. LOL. I'll leave the next one and try and pollinate it just for fun...