Got back from vacation and found this little surprise. This is the first time I have seen this plant flower, and only one flower has opened so far. Was sent as common pink. Any ideas of what is going on? Splash Virus? I have some splash virus plants, but none have been near this plant.
Close-up
Sorry that I don't have an answer for you. I just found it very interesting.
Davie, that is the FrMV (Frangipani Mosaic Tobamovirus) all right. Be careful not to transfer the sap to your other plumies, or they will all look like that. Unfortunately, the virus is going to be in every collection in no time. It is no longer just a problem in Thailand; it is now a worldwide problem. It is true that some people like the look of the virus, but there are many people who don't want it in their collections so, if you sell or trade, you will want to make sure to use sterile tools, etc., when you take cuttings. I personally don't want it in my collection, but I have found it in some of mine.
This message was edited Aug 1, 2007 12:16 PM
Here is a link from the FAQ's Sticky Thread under Pests and Diseases: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/562615/ It addresses some of the issues with the virus.
Is there such a thing as a "splash" bloom that is not virused?
No; all splashes are from a virus. Occasionally, anomolies will occur that are not a virus, but those look different. This conversation continued on another thread over at the Southwest Gardening Forum, but for the benefit of those who didn't see it, here is what I wrote:
According to what is known, it can only be transferred manually by the sap: http://image.fs.uidaho.edu/vide/descr345.htm not by vectors. Vectors are sucking insects like aphids, whiteflies, thrips, etc. This may or may not be accurate as the streets in Bangkok are lined with plumerias which have the virus, and some speculate that sucking insects may have caused that to happen, but for now, the most current information that I have found says it can only be transferred manually.
The virus is transferred easily through the sap. One member here, Michael, intentionally injected the sap of an infected plant into a non-infected plant as an experiment. The next bloom cycle showed the color-break virus. The sap of the infected plant must not touch the cells of a noninfected plant -- that means any part of it. Many owners isolate their infected plants just to be sure. There is no harm in being overly cautious if you don't want your whole collection infected.
There is not a lot known about this virus so, until someone somewhere spends some money to do some research, a lot of questions remain unanswered. There are some things that apply to all plant viruses that you can extrapolate to the FrMV. When the plant is kept otherwise healthy, the symptoms of the virus may not show itself. When a plant is uncared for, neglected, stressed, or unhealthy, the symptoms of the virus may show itself in full force. Having the virus, may weaken the plumeria and make it more attractive to other diseases and/or insects. It is has never been demonstrated to kill a plumeria. There was a huge problem in KoKo Crater in Hawaii when the trees were neglected and uncared for. Many of them had the FrMV and had a borer beetle problem. My understanding is that a clean-up has been an ongoing project there and that it is better than it used to be.
Davie, I tend to shy away from this argument as it always seems to end in an argument. It is a controversial subject. The color-break virus has been a huge money-maker in the past. Plants with the color-break virus tend to go for high prices; although, now that the virus is spreading, we are seeing more and more flowers with it, and so the price is coming down for them. Businesses want to continue to sell these high-priced plumies so they shout down all people who speak against the virus. I have been one of the loudest speakers against owning plumies with a virus for the last couple of years, and it has caused trouble for me so I tend to keep quiet these days, but the word is getting out.
Because of the flashiness of this virus, as there are many importers from Thailand already here. There are many others that have popped up in Florida and Louisiana. The virus is already here in full force. I have several plumerias with it (not intentionally), and I take extra precaution not to let the sap be transferred anywhere. That is what you will have to do. Don't let the sap be transferred to your other plumeria on a knife or cutters or by you because you will transfer the virus. You just have to be careful not to let it spread. Most responsible nurseries, like Florida Colors Nursery, immediately destroy all plants with a virus. This is really what should be done if we are to keep our flowers pure and unaffected. But that suggestion tends to make people really mad as a great deal of money has been spent usually for a color-break virus plant.
I tried to warn others about this virus in previous threads, and I put the thread about it in the FAQ's sticky, but there are so many color break flowers being posted these days that I don't feel I can warn people about it every time without sounding like a broken record. I am on record saying how I feel about it in several places. Here is an old discussion of it which is in the FAQ's Sticky Thread: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/562615/
Thanks very much, Clare for the links and the Thread from the Southwest Gardening forum.
So, if one is not careful, according to the University of Idaho link, one could actually spreak Mosaic Virus to Daturas, not to mention Brugs, if the sap from an infected Plumeria were to "get into the bloodstream" of a Datura or Brug. That's scary!!
Felicia, I did not realize that it could be transferred to other genuses as well. Thanks for mentioning that. I do know that my brugs are susceptible to viruses as well as I've had the black necrosis spots on several of them that had the Tomato Spotted Wilted Virus a few years ago. That was terrible, and I destroyed a lot of brugs because of that one. I always sterilize my clippers now between each cut when I cut my brugs and my plumies. I agree that viruses are very scary and never good.
Wow, Clare what interesting information, I feel totally dumb now :-( Since I'm mostly on the hibiscus forum, I only check this one every few days and hadn't read any previous posts about this. I also have both daturas and brugs.
I purchased one of these plumies, called SuperVirus because the blooms were so unusual, and I thought that was "just a silly name" (DOH!!!!, see what I mean about dumb?). Although the flower does look super cool, I don't want my other plumies to look that way, I just thought it was an interesting looking flower (feeling real dumb) to add into my growing collection. You are right, it was kinda expensive for me...
Should I keep this one away from the rest of my plumies??? Ironically, it isn't near anything else right now, as I just recently planted it.
Also, is there a special way I should treat this plant then???
karen
Karen, you'll just need to do like I recommended to the others -- keep your virused plant away from your other plumerias and brugmansias and clean your cutters with alcohol or bleach or a cleansing wipe after each cut so as not to transfer any sap.
People who now own a virused plant should realize that not everyone wants splashes on their flowers and distorted mottled diseased-looking leaves so hopefully people who own virused plants won't tranfer it to their whole collections or to the collections of others who don't want it. These are symptoms of the virus when it manifests itself. There are many people who are trying very hard to keep their collections virus free.
Thanks so much for the info! I wish I had read the posts before purchasing the plumie...I thought I had read the name of this Ebay seller as being a good one on a thread here, but I won't be buying from him again now, for sure :-(
Do you know if the virus plumie is safe to keep next to my (prized) hibiscus??
The first link that Clare provided in her post, shows the plants that are affected by the Splash Virus (Mosaic in Daturas, and Brugs), I don't recall seeing Hibiscus in that list, but maybe I overlooked that.
As cautious as I am, I'd keep it away from the prized hibiscus. I'd hate to see anything I enjoy being hurt by a virus. :(
Hibiscus is in the Malvaceae family, and that family is not listed as having susceptible hosts on that web site as Felicia pointed out, but it can't hurt to err on the cautious side. I agree with Felicia that I'd hate to see anything prized next to a plant with a virus. I had an Abutilon once which had a virus, and the leaves were always so mottled and ugly. I tried to keep it away from everything and finally just destroyed it because it got too big, and I was too uncomfortable having it around.
Not going to destroy the plant, but going to quarantine it. I want to see what happens to it over time. Thanks for all the info.
Davie
Yep, mine is going all by itself too. I just don't want to take chances. Kicking myself for buying it now that I know it's a virus :-(
Live and learn, right?
Don't feel bad, Felicia. It seems that a lot of people are seduced by the beauty of the virus. I think it is beautiful and terrible at the same time.
Davie, isolation is good and being mindful of sap transfer is good too;-)
As always, great and knowledgeable information being shared...
thanks Clare!
Karen
Thanks, Karen;-)
If you want to rid yourself of infected plumies contact me please.
I love them.
So far none have cross contaminated in my collection
Im not saying they wont or cant.
Clare gave excellent information here
I just happen to love the macabre.
I have infected plants intentionally
Using hypodermic needles and by using leaves from the infected plant placed crushed in the soil of uninfected ones.
My pots are all jammed together and stacked as well.
Keep in mind that most viral splashes will not show until the plant is quite stressed.
I have several known for the splash and they dont always show it.
There are many viruses that can cause the splash according to Dr. Erv
One is a rather annoying virus as it makes the plant look horrid although the blooms are lovely.
Here is an example of a Celadine I infected
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Malestrom22/My%20Plumies/Oddities/?action=view¤t=AlteredCeladine1.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Malestrom22/My%20Plumies/Oddities/?action=view¤t=AlteredCeladine2.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Malestrom22/My%20Plumies/Oddities/?action=view¤t=AlteredCeladine6.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Malestrom22/My%20Plumies/Oddities/?action=view¤t=AlteredCeladine5.jpg
Here is another Celadine my friend Micah and I infected together
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Malestrom22/My%20Plumies/Oddities/?action=view¤t=InfectedCeladine3.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Malestrom22/My%20Plumies/Oddities/?action=view¤t=InfectedCeladine.jpg
This particular infection also caused the leaves to 'ruffle' somewhat
This is an example of the virus that make s the plant look crappy.
Note the flowers are fine but the leaves are terribly diseased.
Tis virus is carried down into the seeds also
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Malestrom22/My%20Flowers/?action=view¤t=B2VirusNormal.jpg
As you can see, some effects can be quite desirable
Other effects can be disasterous
Again, If you want to be rid of them please consider me as a home rather than destroying them.
This message was edited Aug 10, 2007 9:33 AM
This message was edited Aug 10, 2007 9:35 AM
Hi Michael, that looks like a 'Princess Victoria' in your picture. I've also seen pictures from Thailand where a virus is showing on the leaves, and it makes the plant look sick. Kukiat has discovered a way to test for the virus involving the leaves. I had a virus show up on my 'Jeannie Moragne' recently. She is isolated now and will be destroyed. I cannot give away a virused plant in good conscience because, even if the owner is responsible about not transferring sap, I personally don't think it is good to have a virus in the garden, and I don't want to be a contributor to its propagation or spread. This virus is showing up in nearly every collection, it seems, as predicted. I've had a bunch of people contact me by email to say that they already purchased one from Thailand before they knew better. My fear is that it will be on every flower before too long. It will get worse before it gets better. My 'Jeannie Moragne' that is showing the virus is not stressed at all. JMHO.
"Conscious" changed to "conscience."
This message was edited Aug 11, 2007 9:38 AM
We imprison our murderers and support them for the rest of their lives....
BUT WE KILL OUR PLUMIES!?!?!
OH THE PLUMANITY!!
LOLZ... just kiddn
I understand the matter of conscience.
Id still love to have that one ;)
Ill kill it I promise I will..... ;p
LOL, Michael! :-D It's a huge tree, and it will be more painful for me than for it!
Id like to give a link to Dr Ervs page as it has good info from his decades of research.
http://neonorchidexotics.com/Research.php
Here is his home page.
http://neonorchidexotics.com/Home_Page.html
Clare,
If its a big tree just send me a lil piece.
I promise to kill it. ;p
Not gonna happen...LOL! Sorry!
Edited to add: I don't agree with some of Erv's statements or philosophy. I don't think we should run toward the problem. I think we should try to eliminate the problem. I don't want color breaks on my flowers, and I shouldn't have to have them. I am sorry that Erv is giving instructions on how to infect your plants. It is a personal choice, I guess, but I hope his personal choice does not affect my personal choice.
This message was edited Aug 10, 2007 8:40 AM
I respect your differences of opinion.
I wanted to be sure that we had an even playing field of information.
I have a strong respect for the purist and the mad scientist in our groups.
I am a bit of both. ;)
;-) Fair and balanced, eh? I'm all for personal choice as long as one personal choice does not affect another's personal choice. I'm just not sure that pure flowers and infected ones can co-exist. I guess time will tell.
We are working on a plumeria antiviral inoculation ;p
Interesting!
ME TOO Clare, I don't agree with some of Erv's statements or philosophy.
I agree with Erv's statement that there are many types of viruses out there that cause color break in plants. But not all those viruses can create the same proplems in plumeria. I think he is talking about viruses in general which is not necessarily true for plumeria.
It is important to note here that...When we are talking about plumeria we have to talk about the viruses that related to plumeria only (not the viruses in general). These particular viruses that cause CB in plumeria are unique especially in term of viral transmission.
Clare already posted Vishanu Gold plumeria with color break (above). Below is the virus-free Vishanu Gold which hardly see nowsday. I will guard mine like a GOLD.
Hi Kukiat! Your 'Vishanu Gold' is beatiful! I can hardly wait for mine to bloom. Thanks for joining this conversation. Your input is so valuable because you are so knowledgeable. It is truly amazing and a testament to your hard work in keeping your tools sterile that the virus has not spread to your collection. I imagine that it must be everywhere in nurseries in Thailand by now. Luc told me once that you sterilize your tools every day and then only use one knife for each cut. I rarely cut my plumerias except for grafting, but when I do, I use kitchen knives that get sterilized in the dishwasher that night, and I also put my cutters in there sometimes. I also use a wipe called Sani-Cloth too, which is a sanitary wipe used in hospitals which kills everything. I am afraid though that there are many plumerias with the virus here now. I received a number of emails after this thread first started from people who had intentionally purchased a plant with the color-break virus and now were concerned. There are many others who want a virused plant. There is little that can be done except to educate people.
Great discussion, most of the virus plants I have are showing problems with the leaves also. They are modled, or splashed with a reddish tinge. It doesnt look bad, but it doesn't look right either. I am on the fence on this issue. I lov e what the virus does to the flowers, but the potential for devestation is real. I would hate to see my whole collection splashed, and by keeping splashed plants around I may be my own worst enemy. All the plants that are splashed so far have come from Hawaii or Thailand. The varieties from Thailand I knew what I was getting myself into. The plants from Hawaii on the other hand were not known to have the virus, and have the potential to be sold to anyone. They were purchased prepackaged and had the Hawaiian Department of Agricultures stamp on them. So the potential for spread is real, and not many people are educated enough to deal with the virus or know how to handle virused plants. The potential for a huge problem is definately here. I just hope we all can educate people on what the potential for disaster is, and how to deal with virused plants, before it does become a major problem. For now I am keeping my plants, and will even sell some to the educated buyer, but my view may change as I watch and see what happens to my collection over the next year. I may have a different opinion by then.
Davie
I will add 2 things
1- My 'splash' plumies only splash when stressed.
They throw perfectly normal flowers when not stressed
2- I have yet to hear of a plumie dying from the virus
There are more than just 1 virus causing the break
From what Ive read tobacco mosaic virus can also cause splashing in plumies as well as brugs.
This disease is common in tomatoes and peppers
I had no luck with intentional infection of brugs to obtain a splash
Davie, I agree with your analysis about the potential of this virus. I think other groups have gone through something similar, but I can't remember which ones -- maybe the day lilies. Kukiat, Luc, and I have been publicly speaking about the virus on various forums and trying to educate people for the past couple of years, but the resistance is great, and we have been shouted down and opposed by both the consumers who paid a lot of money for their color-break virused plants and by commercial enterprises selling the virused plants for a lot of money. Some even went so far as to try to discredit me and my knowledge of plumerias. We have made some headway, but the problem is worse than ever so I feel there is little that can be done except continue to educate people as you said. Joey Rosselli sold his 'Princess Victoria' all over the country and to Stokes Tropicals, who sold it all over the country, and now there is a major plumeria wholesaler here in Southern California distributing it as 'Lilac Splash.' I would venture to say that most collectors of plumerias have it already. More and more splashes will be showing up, and not many will want to destroy plants.
The virus that has been identified is called the Frangipani Mosaic Tobomovirus (FrMV) so that is what I usually call it. I would like to know the names of the other viruses that can attack plumerias.
Michael, a few years ago, many of my brugmansia multi-hybrids developed what is being called Stanglebrand, which is most likely German for the Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus or the Tobacco Mosaic Virus. I think the Tobacco Mosaic Virus just makes the leaves look sick and mottled, and flowering is inhibited. With the TSWV, black lesions develop at the leaf nodes, and the brugs decline rapidly. I initially received the cuttings from a woman who smoked, and she didn't clean her shears between cuts. She was passing out brug cuttings for postage. Most of the 20 or so that I got from her ended up with the virus. I had spent two years growing them from cuttings before they started to show the black lesions at the nodes. It was a hard lesson to learn for me. Here is a good link about the some viruses in brugs with pictures: http://www.abads.net/Brug-Virus/brugvirus.htm I think it is possible that viruses can weaken the plant and leave it susceptible to other problems and diseases. There was a report done on those lesions of another brug grower. Here is the report:
*******************************************************************************************
"This past spring I received a plant that had SB and it spead to about 7 or 8 plants all of them burned but 1 which I sent to Cornell University for testing.
I got the results back today, below is the letter I recieved:
Here is the Diagnostic Report I got from Cornell University Plant Disease Diagnostic Clinic
Diagnosis and Recommendation: for sample #0515518 9/20/2005
Host/Habitat: Angel Trumpet (Brugmansia sp.)
Diagnosis/ID: Bacterial Soft Rot (Erwinia sp.)
Diagnosis/ID: Phomopsis (Phomopsis sp.)
The sample submitted to the Clinic for analysis showed raised stem cankers, and plants were reported to be dying. Very few diseases have been reported on this host. Most of the known pathogens on Brugmansia are viruses. We did not note any symptoms that would suggest a virus infection, and as this testing may be very expensive, if you are interested in having plants tested for viruses, please call the Clinic at 607-255-7850 for more information.
We placed some plant material in a moist chamber, attempted to isolate a pathogen from the stem cankers, and examined the roots microscopically. We also dissected the lower stem, and found no discoloration of tissue. Although the dark watery lesions suggested infection by a bacterial pathogen, we were unable to isolate Clavibacter michiganense, the bacterium known to cause stem cankers on Datura/Brugmnsia spp. We also were not able to isolate any other known stem pathogen, although we did isolate or observe some potentially pathogenic organisms.
Although most of our isolations produced bacteria, we also isolated a Fusarium sp. and observed Fusarium sporulating on dying bud tissue. We also observed pycnidia of a Phomopsis sp. developing on and in cankers. The fungus Phomopsis has been reportedly isolated from stems of some Datura spp. but not specifically from Angels Trumpet, nor has it been proven to be a pathogen. However, as we did find Phomosis developing on and within necrotic tissue associated with most of the cankers, we suspect that it may be the primary cause of the cankers. We noted that the cankers did not significantly worsen during the time that we had plant material in a growth chamber except where bacterial ooze was also present.
At least one species of bacterium isolated appeared to be an Erwinia spp. and these organisms cause diseases commonly known as Soft Rots. Although the Soft Rot bacteria may be merely secondary invaders of tissue infected with Phomopsis, we suspect that once present, the bacteria initiate a more rapid decay that leads to stem dieback. If this occurs near the base of the stem where moisture level is higher, it may be causing a rot and overall dieback of the stem. No chemical control recommendations are available. We recommend isolating infected plants from healthy plants, then pruning out branches with cankers from infected plants. Make cuts at least 3-4 inches below any visible symptoms, and carefully clean pruning tools between each cut with a 10% bleach solution. If desired, seal cut ends with grafting wax or treat with a drying agent, and prune additional material at the first sign of infection. Also avoid any overhead watering that may help to spread fungal spores or bacteria. If you have any questions, please contact the Clinic at your convenience.
Michael, you are right that no plumie dying from the virus. So this is not the point that I am concerning about. I just do not want CB on the flowers and do not want all plumies in my collection infected with virus. I respect your differences of opinion as well. I really like your attitude towards the purist like me. LOL. I love to hear more about your experiment related to the CB.
I just want to agree with Kukiat that I respect your difference of opinion as well and appreciate your tolerance of (we) purists. In case people don't know, Michael is a stand-up guy with great character and high morals and has supported me on more than one occasion when I got attacked for voicing my opinions. I am glad that he is here at Dave's.
Its not tolerance.
Its respect. ;)
interesting! my jeannie splashed in 2003/2004. no splash this year. however, i can detect the virus in the leaves this year.
Dete, can you post a picture of those leaves? I have a second 'Jeannie Moragne' from a different source that hasn't shown a virus yet, but I'll watch it.
I have an interesting photo I took today
This is a seedling ive raised for the last 2.5 years
It has never done this before and im not sure it is viral.
The flower had a splash last year but it was in a pattern not like the viral splash.
Your input is appreciated.
Here is a picture of the flower.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Malestrom22/Seedlings/Slaughter%20Pink/?action=view¤t=SlaughterPinkSeedling9-10-06.jpg
Here is the leaf pattern
This just showed up after I took a cutting from the plant.
I should add it is only on the new shoots.
Thanks for your input !!
This message was edited Aug 15, 2007 8:40 PM
