I finally went to see the experts

At least they claim to be pond experts and have about $40K in koi in their tanks in one place alone. This is Driftwood Nurseries in Naples and Estero. Since I can't find anybody else around here these folks must do all the ponds in Naples.

Anyway, I took pictures there. All kinds of pictures of my pond. My water is dark and yet in a bucket it looks clear. The fish are down deep and are hardly to be seen except when they feed. I don't feed them much as I want them to eat algae. :-) My lilies don't look as good as they did in May. Maybe they need more food. Some have died.

I sat at length with one of the guys and he consuled with another expert at the other store and they will combine to come up with a proposal for me as I asked for. At some point, before I do anything, I expect one of them to come and do a physical inspection.

The bottom line was that I've done everything right but that the heat and sun will cause what I have no matter what. It's just a tsunami of perfect growing condition for algae. A mechanical filter outside of my two 150 gal bio filters may help keep the bios clean longer. So they showed me what they use: these large round balls filled with little tiny balls of ceramic filter material with a backwash. One or more UV lights can be added but they too won't beat the algae completely. The man said that they UV will try to kill every living organism, good and bad. That can be more bad then good with a good bio setup. But he said they won't and can't kill everything and the bios will still have some effect. It just partially defeats their purpose. I have a lot of water and that makes things more difficult to manage.

I've asked them to recommend a better solution to my current setup even though they kind of said I should just wait out the summer and then clean the pool real well. The fish will be fine. So a better more efficient and higher flow base pump, a mechanical bio-tube filter for about 10,000 gal and a separate UV light tube which I can turn off or bypass as needed. We'll see what they come up with.

Has anybody used this filter from http://pondsolutions.com/filters.htm :

Ultima II Bio-Tube Filters
Independent Laboratory Testing Confirms Ultima II Filters are the Best!
Gillespie Biomonitoring Labs, an independent, certified testing laboratory tested the Ultima II filter and the other 3 leading bead filters. Ultima II filter proved to be superior in all areas including setup, nitrification, back washing and overall efficiency. These top-of-the-line filters are the best choice for fish holding systems, aquaculture and koi ponds.
Patented Bio Tube Filter media has extremely high surface area (one cubic foot of media has 750 square feet of surface area) for maximum filtration. This lightweight, non-clogging media is seeded with natural bacteria for quick filter start up after installation.

Hi fredrump! Gosh, sorry to hear some frustration has crept into your ponding experience. I have no experience with bead filters, however I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night and........... Seriously though, I suscribe to a magazine call "koiusa" .
www.koiusa.com.
This magazine is for extremely serious koi enthusiasts and breeders. I figure an amature like me can at least pick up some good info and tips. Everybody columunist in this magazine uses and discusses bead filtration. Nearly every article about new pond installation starts with bead filtration as part of the basic setup. UV's are routinely employed as well. The Ultima II is heavily advertised in the magazine.

From personal experience I would never try to run a full sun pond without a huge UV or two. If I were to ever change my filtration, bead filtration is the way I would go without hesitation.

Hi Fred!!! Sorry you're having so much trouble. I have 2 aquadyne bead filters 1-5000 gal and 1 3000 gal and a 65W UV light. Even with this I noticet the rocks on the waterfall are all black like your talking about but I just turned everything off for a few sunny days swept the black off the rocks and picked it up then turned the falls back on. I let what was causing the problem solve it...the sun!!!

LOL
Jeri

Morning Snapple,
I'm glad you said that. You're right, I didn't expect the sun to be my lord and master and simply make me do it's bidding. Of course I've heard the UV story here before too - a number of times, from various sources. You know who you are. :-)

I just subscribed to the Koi Magazine. Might as well try to learn something. I already know that without the sun and water none of us would be here. So that's something. Now I need to fill in the rest of the fishy story.

Still, I could do without it and be natural if it weren't for this heat and sun during the summer months. Basically I'm a nature boy and I wanted to build a pond that would only require running water. Oh well!

On top of this my Koi cafe went silent and won't feed the fish anymore (I won't even go into the other reasons for which I'm now). I've mentioned the fact that I had to impose on my neighbor for fish feedings here before. I think he was too generous which probably helped with the algae. I've isolated the problem to a bad timer inside the feeder and am waiting for a replacement.

The best part of my being in FL in July is that I was finally able to convince my neighbor to sell me his property. This is the time to buy real estate. The stock market is up and real estate is down - a perfect combination. After almost four years they've given up on the sugar plums they had in their vision and I will own the 5 acre preserve on my left. Since I've prettied up my 2.5 acres to park like garden, I can keep this new land in a more pristine state. Besides, I now know that no one will build next to me and take away this wonderful privacy we have here. Nature boys need privacy. Two garden clubs have already announced their intention to come and visit in the fall. For that alone I need the pond presentable. :-)

OK, DW wants a newspaper and I better get dressed and get one.

Fred

Hi Jeri,
I know you've beating the same drum on me. :-)

I just said (I won't even go into the other reasons for which I'm now). My fingers do not follow my mind quick enough and left out the HERE.

for those of you who (DW is pushing) like gardening: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/748044/#post_3734424

Sorry for all your frustration Fred. I always thought the best arsenal is ponding was knowledge. There are so many variables and to rely on folks on the net figure out yours is problematic at best.

When a pond is filled initially you have tons of stuff in it that feed algae, like phosphates and other micronutirents, and unless you add things that can remove those, like resin, chemicals, and clay, it's a waiting game til they are all used up. That's the difference between a new pond and an established pond and a big reason why you never want to empty and refill a pond unless you have to.

Never have I seen a new ponder with any amount of patience but that's what's required. And on top of that, the more water you have the more patience is required.

I also find the more you "do" to your pond trying to fix it, the more you prolong a desirable outcome- all you're doing is introducing more variables and the more variables, the harder a pond is to control.

On your pond and it's filtration....I personally always thought the 2 150 gallon skippy filters were not nearly enough for a koi pond your size and that you would be greatly benefited by a good biological filter. IMO trickle filters are the most efficient form of biological filtration you can have and if you go with a pressurized system you should find a way to oxygenate directly before the water goes into it to max out it's potential.

azreno said: "IMO trickle filters are the most efficient form of biological filtration you can have and if you go with a pressurized system you should find a way to oxygenate directly before the water goes into it to max out it's potential."

Your forcing me into reading your mind. I looked up trickle filters and find nothing but aquarium and sea water filters. What are we talking about here for a pond? Ah, just googled some more: http://www.koiandponds.com/tricklefilter.htm

It says what I want to hear. :-) "Remember that age-old piece of advice that says you can't have clear water without using a uv sterilizer? Well, no matter how popular it still is to many hobbyists today, more and more people are becoming convinced that there are other ways to get that highly-coveted crystal-clear water in their ponds. Their new secret weapon? Trickle filters."

Oh, the differences of opinion. The writer goes on:
"A trickle filter must be treated as a biological filter, and not as a mechanical filter. Debris will not be able to pass through the tiny holes of the spray bar or drip plate, which will easily get clogged up if the water they get has some suspended particulates in it. Thus, an efficient mechanical filter must always come before a trickle tower, so that the water fed to the latter will already be free of debris.

A well-designed trickle filter is said to be tens to hundreds of times better than wet filters in terms of biological filtration efficiency. Koi hobbyists who have attached trickle towers to their conventional filters attest to the effectiveness of this accessory in achieving crystal-clear pond water, even without uv sterilizers. This is why more and more koi enthusiasts are turning to trickle filters for help nowadays."

Now where do I find such a pressurized trickle filter system? Is this what you are talking about?

http://www.thepondsolution.com/shop/category.aspx?catid=36

I guess what this comes down to is having a mechanical filter (the big round ball containing little balls and a back flush) as the first line of defense from the pond itself. Then have a trickle filter as described above and only then enter the natural bio filters. As a precaution a UV could be installed after the trickle filter but have a bypass in case it's not needed. But with the Pond Solution it may be all I need. Seems to be about 3 to 4 grand though.

Such a system should do the trick. Now to build it. :-) I'm going to contact the Pond Solution in Delray Beach across the state.

Fred

I like clear water just as much as the next person, but I have to say I think your dark water pictures look nice. It looks more natural than seeing the concrete bottom. Just thought I'd pass that along. We tend to look at our ponds and get discouraged when everything's not perfect. But nature doesn't have perfect ponds either!

When I mentioned a pressurized system I was referring to your link to the ultima 2 bio tube filter, that is pressurized. It is a common piece of equipment for large ponds these days, I suppose because they are easy to come by even though not very affordable.

A trickle filter is literally water dripping over a media that is coverd in bacteria. The sheer amount of oxygen available to the bacteria as a result of the dripping is what makes it so efficient, you don't get that in a pressurized system which is why I would suggest anyone using pressurized find a way to oxygenate in front of such a filter.

Trickle filters were originally used for aquariums and that's where I became familiar with their effectiveness. Trickle filters have not exactly become commercialized for ponds just yet and most people make their own out of 55 gallon barrels. Simply pump the water to the top and using pvc or whatever you have handy make a jig to spray the water down onto your media. This is where it is handy to have your pumping ability split up so you're not trying to force too large a volume of water thru it.......we have 2 large sequence pumps, each with their own set of barrels. Each pump pumps into it's own first barrel, which is simply mechanical, it operates very much like your skippy's do, upflow thru a filtering media. At the top of each of those barrels are fittings that transfer the water to the other barrel which is my trickle filter. From there it goes back tot he pond.

Is there anyplace you can direct me to with step-by-step instructions and pictures for the trickle filter? I understand the concept but the actual construction alludes me. Thanks

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/

I don't know of a site with instructions but if you ask on koiphen or even do a search of the threads, I'm sure you'll get what you're after there. There is a great forum for filtration on that site and an awful lot of DIYer's that will be a great help to you.

You seem very handy and I have no doubt that after some looking over some of their setups, you'll start to feel more confident about what would be good for you and how to go about it.

Thanks Azreno! I am going to have to sign up for this website. I have a feeling I would be spending a lot of time there. :^)

I'm really thinking a field trip to Fredrumps is in order! Congrats on the land purchase. I'm in a subdivision, with the normal tiny backyard, and trying to hand dig as much "pondage" as possible.
I've found several reliable fish vendors in Florida that I try to stick with. Unfortunately, I have a weiner dog who thinks she has to snag fish out of the lily pads and eat them as a very costly snack! All the time and thought put into a pond to make it right, only to have a dachsund throw the whole serene experience into a tizzy.
Sheesh...

Fred,
Your pond can be in a magazine!!! Can you post a better picture? Thank you, Bellie

Fred, You've got green algae and I'm green with envy. How fortunate for all that someone like you will be the steward of the land.

Bellie wants a better picture. I have lots of shots on my phanfare account. Take your pick from any of the following. Just run the slideshow and stop it as needed:

http://fredrump.phanfare.com/album/243024/323991#imageID=14415820
http://fredrump.phanfare.com/album/243025/324448#imageID=14434535
http://fredrump.phanfare.com/album/252823/356243#imageID=15070308
or my latest meanderings with my flowers and everything else
http://fredrump.phanfare.com/album/328869

Fred

Your place looks like paradise!! Do you have help maitaining the yard and pond?You did a good job with your pond and your gardens. Thank you, Bellie

Hi Bellie,
it's designed to be a paradise. That was one reason we retired/moved to Naples. :-) I've always had a nice garden but never the sub-tropical environment where you can grow things which have no chance further north. Even though, I'm pushing it for some plants on a cold night but they always come back - except for some real fussy guys like orchids.

The pond was supposed to be self-maintaining during my absence but I found out that algae grows faster then I anticipated and will clog things up if not removed. So I have a neighbor who watches my place and does what has to be done. The weeds grow with abandon and will be dealt with in the fall. The grass is cut by a private person using my equipment. That's about a four to five hour job every week. It costs me a good buck but I couldn't cut it even if I wanted to in this heat. It's zoysia so it grows slower then floratam. It's cut at 1.5 inches but pretty much chokes out any weeds. It's pretty tight.

Fred

We have zoysia also maybe 25 years old so it is nice and thick,. We live in almost 1/2 acre lot and packed with plants. i have a pond which was built by a pond designer and I do not fuss with it that much, I just put in 5 bots of H2O2 every week during summer to take care of algae.My kois are fed with stale wheat bread in the morning and reg koi food at night. DH cleans filters once a week so I have plenty of time to do other things. My garden is my haven and I find time to relax and listen to the waterfall .Does your wife help with the pond and garden? It sure is paradise111I mean your property. Bellie

Fred you ought to try keeping up 25 acres. Between my 2 parks, rental home and my house that's what we maintain. My backyard is 1/2 acre and Jim gladly gave it to me so he doesn't have to cut grass there. LOL!!! He keeps trying to talk me into enlarging the fenced in area back there but I have enough to take care of already. I'm ready to sell and move to a condo. Think that will work?

Jeri

READY to move into a condo??? Who are you kidding!!! If you are crazy enough to be on this site, that is evidence enough to know you would not survive without your gardens and ponds! LOL... condo.... right!!
Pat

Hey people, someone with a meager suburban lot 70 x 140 is getting mighty jealous up here in snow country! If you think it's getting to be too much for you I'll trade!

LOL in this heat and humidity I'm ready to trade!!! It's so hot outside you can't breathe much less accomplish anything. All you can do is sit in the shade with a nice cool drink and fan yourself.

Jeri

I joined this koiphen site recommended by azreno and boy do they have ponds. Serious stuff. Me and my two bio filters can go packing. I don't know the half of what they are talking about what with flow meters and turn rates and all kinds of other mysterious equipment.

I never heard anyone talk of turn rates here. What should it be in GPM or pond rates? I re-measured my pond and it is closer to 10,000 gal then 9,000. So what should I be turning here?

Jeri, sitting in the shade still means getting wet. I have this portable airconditioner (De Longie) in the room where all my computer stuff is. It gets too warm in there with only the house air. Problem is I have to empty the water canister two or three times a day. I mean it's wet here.

Fred

Turnover rate is how many times in one hour the total pond gallons is circulated through the filter. For proper oxygenation and filtering a minimum of 1.5 times per hour is usually considered acceptable. For example, my pond is a puny 2000 gals. My pump is rated for 3800 gph taking into account a reduction for 20 feet of head. Head is the loss of pumping capacity due to friction of the length of the run from the pump to the out pour (water fall) and the lift in height. This gives me turn rate of 1.9 times per hour. In other words I have a well oxygenated pond. This rate is slow enough to allow the filters I have to do their job keeping up with the rate at which the koi put waste into the water and fast enough to oxygenate the water too. Its a balancing act - Size of pump, capacity of filters, gallons in the pond and fish load. Now in your case add heat. Heat decreases the amount of oxygen water can hold, hence a faster turn rate is needed to compensate. Koi need well oxygenated water. Simple huh?

Last night I returned from Delray Beach (on the other side of FL, 260 mile round trip) where I went to see ThePondSolution which I mentioned earlier in this thread. The 'experts' at Driftwood here in Naples have not bothered to call after I had gone there to get a proposal from them. I had given them lots of pictures and my requirements and they were going to get right back to me. Actually this is quite typical here. People don't bother calling back.

So, I went to see what the folks on the other side had to offer. I was so shook up from seeing the display ponds and fish that I forgot to take pictures. I was impressed and there was no UV light to be seen. "I want one" was the only thought that came to my mind. A lot of show and tell and a business owner who clearly loved his work and was proud of it. We hit it off and he's bringing his wife to my place on Monday afternoon to take a look at what I have here - pond and landscaping. He was telling me that they have installed 178 ponds on that side of the state and are maintaining most of them under contract. Apparently most of the ponders over there don't like to clean a filter. It's dirty.

Rick, the owner, kept telling me about his customers and how they finally found him to resolve their problem ponds. One guy gave him carte blanche with an open wallet to get his water clear. The man had three $2500 UV lights, all kinds of filters and still had a messy pond. 'You should see it now', Rick said. "Can I?" So we drove down to this 30,000 gal pond on the edge of a lake behind a golf course. The thing was 6 feet deep in the middle. Nylon lines were strung above it. It was a lined pond and it was crystal clear. One could almost touch the fish. Hundreds of little golden fish were also in the pond (they told me the name but it didn't matter). Again I was fascinated by the big or getter giant koin in that pond. The little guys are periodially procured to act as food for the birds which invade the place. The birds wade in as they do in these sloped ponds and eat until they are full and never bother the koi. I have no idea why the nylon lines as it doesn't seem to bother anybody. They told me that without the feeder fish the herons would poke at the koi and injure them.

The owner of the place must have access to a bank vault as money didn't seem to matter. The place exuded wealth with his and her Mercedeses in the garage. The pond itself was around 60 big ones. The pool was right next to it. The windchimes were about 12 feet long and 6 inches round. The whole place was done to resemble a Japanese garden with the fish to lend impetus to the idea.

The owner told me that on a scale of 1 to 10, Rick was at least a 15 in his expertise and dedication to ponding. Good enough for me.

I'll give you boys and gals a look at the pond. The fish seemed to float in the air. That was how clear the water was.

Fred

Another shot of the entire pond. You can see how this is accomplished without UV on their website.

Have always been assured that enough money could buy anything. lol

Need to add that I am not talking about you, Fred. You made mention about the place you visited and that you thought they must throw buckets of money at everything. Just wanted to make that clear.

This message was edited Jul 20, 2007 2:48 AM

LouC,
in the final analysis money rules the world. That's for sure. The significance of my post was not on that but on the fact that proper filters will keep a pond clear - even without UV lights - and in the blaring sun here in South Florida. I had pretty much decided to also get UV lights and was in the process of trying to get a filter system which would include them. Now I see that all one needs is a proper combination of mechanical and bio filters and that does not cost any more then a UV setup. UV lights are not cheap when you have to clear a large amount of water both in initial and continuing costs. Quite frankly, the concept of ultra violet light killing bacteria, good and bad, did not appeal to me from the gitgo. I was fighting that approach with two large bio filters and a good flow of water thru them. It sort of works but not to the point of getting a clear view of the koi in my pond. So, something had to give if I wanted my pond the way I imagined it would be when I designed the sucker. :-)

Now we'll see what my man will recommend and install for me. I will keep all of you abreast of the developments.

As an aside, I must say the marginals I planted in my stream back in April sure are getting big. They seem to love whatever nutrients flow down the pike. The plants in the bios are not as big but also doing well.

Fred

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, Fred. It is obvious that you are a dedicated gardner and ponder. You say you didn't find out what the nylon line are for......if you get that information we would love to know what it is.

LouC

I bet instead of netting they just put those lines up. Not as unsightly as netting.

Be sure and let us know what the guy says. We are all interested!!!

Jeri

Thank you for the info Fred. I too am anxiously awaiting any news. I have a small UV light that I use and am happy with in regards to keeping the water clear. But like you, I would rather have the advantage of keeping the good bacteria.

I can read a newspaper on the bottom of the pond in the 3-1/2 ft. part. I attrubute this partly to the UV and partly to keeping the filter clean. UV's kill only free floating bacteria and algae. If you have a good bio-film formed on rocks, the liner, or other surfaces you have good bacteria. This is especially true of the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria which convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. I have seen literature which call UV's sterilizers but that is misleading. UV's don't sterilize, else there would be no bacteria in the filter. Besides killing green floating algae UV's are also beneficial in killing ich, protozoa and fungi. The only reason I would not have a UV is if there was a less expensive alternative which was also as easy to manage. I am, basically, a lazy ponder.

I do wish they would kill the pond leaches though. I know they are harmless but I hate the darned things. I too am very interested in what Fred is learning.

An update:
The experts (Driftwood Nursery) here in Naples finally called me yesterday "after" I had paid 'ThePondSolution' from across the state to come here and fix my pond. Some people simply think they own the market and don't need to respond to a request for a proposal in a timely manner.

Rick Warren, the owner of the pond solution, came here to visit and to look my situation over. He brought his wife and we went out to a nice dinner after we decided on the solution. Part of my problem is the plumbing - pipes should have been 3 inch for the volume. Bio filters without additional help will simply not produce clear water in the heat of summer.

So, as you read this on Thursday they will be here with four guys to dig me some trenches and lay 3 inch pipe. We can't do anything about the two 2" drains under the concrete but will add additional suction in two other places to turn the water at least 8 times a day. I'll be getting two new pump systems which will be installed away from the pond behind my well and irrigation injection system. Each pump will have two mechanical and one pressurized bio-filter.

My 2HP pump will be discarded for now and replaced with (2) 1/2 hp pumps. I'm curious as to the result of that. The filters can be seen at http://www.thepondsolution.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=230

It's really their standard solution for my size pond and is supposed to give me clear water in a matter of days without a UV light. We shall see. My two jiffy bio filter tanks will probably get only clean water pumped into them as the filtering will already have been done by the time the water gets there. Oh well.

Fred

I hope that works well, Fred! Please continue to keep us updated.

Brenda

Hi Fred, My two filters are like the big ones in the pictures but what do the little cartiage looking filters do. I don't understand. How often do you have to backwash all those filters?

Jeri

Jeri,
the tube like filters are mechanical in that pondsolutions modifies them by opening them up internally for better waterflow and then they use two blankets made out of this scrub pad stuff. These blankets are wrapped around the center pole where the water comes out of. In other words this is a process of eliminating larger particles from the water and these blankets need to be washed periodically. That's what the folks do for customers as pond maintenance. The ponders themselves don't want to see or touch the collected dirt. I''ll start with a weekly spray process with a good hose to see how far that takes me. The other round filter is a pressurized bio filter. The pumps are just about completely silent - nice. They got one system running today. The rest will follow tomorrow. The boss is staying here in a hotel room to finish the job. All the hard work is done and he'll just have to connect a few more pipes.

The flow I got from the one 1/2hp pump was better then I got from my 2hp before. I'm pleased.

fred

How's this for piping? It's the run from the new pumps and filters to the pond's original piping.

Nice!!!