New Leaves "Cupping" on Hibiscus and ONE (of 6) Datura???

I will post several pictures below. I have NEVER seen this before!

These are all in a long bed--the full width of my house wall-facing South/West. It gets really good light until late evening, when the house next door shades it a bit. I have grown this Hibiscus in the same spot for at least 5 years and have also grown Daturas there for about the same length of time.

The Hibiscus in question are two different, perennial ones. The greener one is a tall, older variety of a red one and a white/pinkish one all growing in the same clump.

The darker-leafed one is a Kopper King Hibiscus I planted 3 years ago. There was no problem last year. Also, I have a KK Hib. on the other side of the house that has totally blown me away by growing 5 feet tall. Both Hibiscus are in bud at this time. Neither has bloomed yet.

I am NOT a novice gardener and "know" what I am doing. This cupping up of the leaves has me baffled though. It is NOT Thrips, as far as I can tell (as I anticipate some of you suggesting). The leaves are NOT dying off--they are just curling up/cupping and on the Datura, it seems almost like they are "mummifying"--very hard, thick, distorted and leathery to the touch. I sprayed once with a garden insecticide, but nothing changed.
The buds are continuing to look OK. I can't yet tell if they will also be dwarfed.

I hope I have given you good enough descriptions of this problem to help me out.

Thanks for any help you can offer. Please ask any questions if something is not clear. I can also post pictures of both Hibiscus from previous years- if needed.

Gita

This first picture is of the older, perennial Hibiscus (the red and white ones mixed). These are about 5' tall.
I hope you can see that only the newer leaves are curling up, not the ones below.

Here's another picture of the same Hibiscus.

Now--Here is the thwarted, distorted leaves of my Kopper King Hibiscus. The reddish color is normal on this plant.

This picture is of the Datura that seems to be having a similar problem, except the leaves are like "shrunk" and hard to the touch/leathery. Really weird!

I have 6 Datura plants in this same bed. I grew them all from seed.
This particular one (the sicky one) first got my attention by having yellow mottling on all the leaves as it was growing. Hmmmm.....

PS. My foot is perfectly OK!

Then, as it now has grown to almost 21/2 feet tall, all this weird stuff started happening to its top growth. ONLY this one Datura!!!! The others are OK.

Here's a picture of the curled/distorted/SHRUNKEN top leaves on this Datura.

Sometimes that is an excess of nitrogen or some mineral defiency
have you been too kind to your plants?

Here's a close-up of one of these "mummified" leaves. They are almost hard to the touch. Weird--as if the normal leaf was zapped by something to shrink it down to 1/4 it's size.

Might it be a virus of some kind??????

Here is the healthy/normal top growth of a Datura right, smack next to it.
Nothing wrong with this one!

OK! I am out of pictures. I will double-post this in the Hibiscus and Datura forum also. I really want some answers.....

Thanks to all for whatever suggestions you might have for me.

Gita

Hi...Looks like a virus.
I've trashed all of my Datura. Here in Florida, they get ugly brown, ring spot virus and other assorted cruds. I didn't want them anywhere near my brugmansia. It is possible they've developed one of their many viruses and passed it on to your Hibiscus.
Just my opinion.
Sorry to see that kind of damage in your plants.

Like Chrissy and Liz, I was thinking too much fertilizer OR a disease. I would get a few branches of each affected plant into your county extension office ASAP. If they can't ID it immediately, they can send the samples off to the state lab for analysis. Here in SC there is a small charge for that analysis but it is insignificant in light of the costs of the other plants in your garden that might be impacted by whatever this is.

Good luck, you have some beautiful plants there to protect.

I have the same problem with a few of my Brugs. Maya has two stalks the left stalk is beautiful, but the right stalk the top 1/4 of the plant has the same Hard curled leaves, almost feel like leather. There are two or three others that have the same problem just in the top. One of the plants is about 6' tall and had its first bloom for the year and it was beautiful. only inches below these curled leaves. So far my Hibiscus are not bothered.

I cut the top out of the Brug and put in the trash yesterday. If I can retrieve it I'll take it to the Ag office today.
Betty

The only other thing I can think of ...and because of such severe damage is a drift of weed killer...anyone been spraying something like that?

No Weed Killer used here. I did retrieve from the trash and will take to County Agent this morning. I'll try to make a picture first.
Betty

So sorry Gita. What a shame. Could be a virus for sure. I also wonder if it could be some kind of mite. There are so many kinds and they distort the new growth esp. Like the cyclamen mite and the broad mite. When I had them, the new growth got very brittle and curved under. I had a few brugs get that weird striated look too. I used Neem on all surfaces of the leaves and the new growth started coming out normal and I took a sigh of relief.

If viral, you need to get rid of them!

I also had a couple that looked like a mosaic virus and Neem did not help so I had to toss them.

I also had a couple that looked like a mosaic virus and Neem did not help so I had to toss them.

Thank you all for the suggestions. keep them coming....

Gordo, I don't mind trashing this one Datura. I have plenty of others.
Is this virus something that stays in the plant and comes back next year? Talking about the perennial Hibiscus',
How does it spread from one plant to another that is 15 feet away?
I have 4 Brugs growing elsewhere in the yard. None of them are in this bed that has the problems.

Ardesia--
That's a good suggestion. I will call the Extension Service first and see if they do this kind of stuff--and if there is a charge.

Picabo,
Sorry about your Brug! Do you think it could be the very hot weather we all are having???
I have a "Peaches and Cream" Brug on the other side of the house. I will have to keep an eye out! Do you have a picture of your virus-affected leaves?

Chrissy,
No one has sprayed any weed killer anywhere near or far.

I posted this also on the "Pests and Diseases" Forum. So far, I haven't heard from anyone.

Gita

Gita, I posted a response to your thread on Pests & Diseases just a few minutes after you posted it yesterday, I'm not sure why you didn't see it. It was sort of long which is why I didn't try to repeat myself here. I don't think I said anything too much different than what people here have said though, but in case you want to take a look here it is: http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3711559.

The symptoms remind me of Boar Mite (sp?). I had this on a couple brugs a couple years ago. I did try spraying a few times with some kind of mite spray, but I ended up pitching them into a big garbage bag; dirt, pot and all. I didn't want it spreading to the other brugs....

I had many Datura at one time, but when Summers here in Florida grow damp and sizzling, the brown spots showed up like clockwork. Sometimes, insects transfer the virus, or you may do it yourself with bare hands or pruners. I just didn't want to put all the Brugmansia at risk.

Whether the Datura is the source of your virus is anyone's guess until you have it examined by a professional. If you have lots of Hibiscus, I would head to the county extension service with a few leaves for diagnosis.

I hate viruses.

I cut the top out of the Brug and took to the county extension office today. They said they would have an answer tomorrow. They better, they charge $15.00 to look at it. LOL Well worth the money if they can help.

I should have looked at the pictures before I left. Not to good. The back side of the leaf was too out of focus to tell anything. This is the top of the leaf. Every other leaf on the plant is perfect.

Betty

Betty,.

Let me know what their diagnosis was, please.

Your leaf looks more "bubbly" than mine. Mine is just flat and hard and "shrunken". Really hard to the touch.

Ecrane--Yes! I read your long response on the other Forum.

Gita

Gitagal -

I have NO Dagturas in my yard and yet 2 of my hibiscus platns are doing this, neither one close to the other. My Brugs are not, and the other hibiscus are not. The conditions that we've been having here in Texas are as follows:

Solid rain for the last month, almost daily (come flooding)
Beating hot sun when it's out
Tons of humidity

Also, I've just begun fertilizing my brugs appropriately (20-20-20 3-4 times a week). Both Brugs are near one of the hibiscus plants that's doing this, and the other plant is in a completely different bed. So even though at first I thought it was fertilizer, it may be and then again it may not be.

Have you been having all the rain like we have, too? You know rain delivers nitrogen. If nitrogen is the cause, then it is very possible that it's just due to all of the rain and it will go away eventually (don't know anything about the daturas though, sorry).

My 2 hibiscus that are doing this are Rum Runners, and it's only on the new leaves. After a week or so, the new leaves relax to a normal flat leaf. And the plant is still flowering and blooming well so I've paid it no mind.

Although that could be an error on my part? I had NO idea that plants could get viruses, too. Interesting ...

Amanda,

I have not fertilized any of these plants to speak of. I think I did it only once.
NO. We have not had rain to speak of either. It has been a very dry summer. I have to hand water almost every day. Everything is drying out.
Daturas and Brugs are related--in the same family. I yanked the affected Datura out the other day and threw it in the trash. The bottom leaves were getting more and more blotchy. Got rid of it ! I have 6 daturas all in the same bed. Only the one had this problem, even though I thougt one of the others started showing signs of this "virus" also. They are all blooming, but the blooms are not lasting more than 2 days. It HAS to be the heat! They droop so quickly...

Don't you think fertilizing THREE times a week with 20-20-20 is a bit much??? Try to alternate with something more organic like Fish Emulsion and Epsom Salts now and then. I have 4 Brugs growing. One is entirely from last year, the other 3 are from cuttings. They are all doing OK, except I don't think they like this upper 90's hot weather. High humidity also--of course. Can you leave yours out all year in TX? I have to take cuttings or keep them dormant over the winter in my basement.

My affected Hibiscus has not "relaxed" the leaves at all. They are still all curled up. The buds seem to be developing OK, though. I do not know the name of it. I got seeds for it about 6 years ago from a DG'er. It is an "older" variety. Only blooms the third year from seed.

I have 2 others--Kopper King. The one on the East side is almost 6' tall and just started blooming. It is HUGE!!! I never expected it to grow this tall. Must like where it is planted. I took some pictures today. I'll have to upload them so you can see.

Gita

This is my 6-foot Kopper King Hibiscus. Sorry it is a bit dark. I turned off the flash. The blooms are huge!

Here's one of the blooms close up.

Wow - those are GREAT blooms!!

Yeah, I DO think fertilizing the Brugs 3-4 times a week is a bit much!! Definitely!! But I wasn't doing any more than once every 2 weeks with the triple 20 and they were looking miserable (yellow, dropping leaves, and this is BEFORE all of the heavens unleashed on us). Sooooo - I posted a thread in the Brug forum. I called it something like - "I think I'm going to lose my Brugs. Help?" This was about 2 weeks ago? Anyway, that's the most common advice I kept getting so I thought well, I guess I'll try anything. Man, doing this year-round is going to get QUITE expensive!!!! I'm blowing right through fertilizer, but the Brugs have REALLY perked up.

Yeah, we can leave ours in the ground year-round here. I want mine to get like a tree ... that would be SOOOOO NICE!!! But then I'll have to move them to a more prominent place in my itty bitty yard. Shouldn't be a problem though ... we can take out the neighbor's fence, right?? Lol ... deal with it when we get there!!

Anyway, sorry it's been so dry for you!! I'm a little jealous as all of this rain is causing my gorgeous Mandevilla to drop the bottom 1/2 of it's leaves. ARGH.

I got the report back from the state on my Brugs with the cupped leaves. They said that it was broad Mites and to treat with Avid, Forbid or bifenthrin every 5 days.

I have trimmed and burned all the cupped leaves and sprayed the first time. I'll spray again on Monday. If this doesn't help a lot of brugs will be looking for a new home. LOL They said to spray into the newly forming leaves.

Betty

Wow .... so you can't see these mites? Hummmmmmmmmm ... very interesting.

I picked off some leaves and looked with this magnifier thing that I have. I didn't see anything except what looked like dust. I guess it just wasn't strong enough. I have a larger one to check the plants next week to see if the spray is working.
I was also told at the garden center that you can hold the plants under 110 degree water for a few minutes. Sure an 8' tall brug wouldn't even fit in my bath tub. LOL. Good idea for cuttings though. Dip in hot water before introducing to the garden next time.

Ha ha ha ha, I can hear it now - HONEY, we need to get a horse trough!! The plants need their weekly baths!!!! Ha ha, just kidding! I like the chemical treatments better that you were talking about ...

When I get a bug that doesn't seem to go away I get orthene for roses. It is a granular and sprinkle it around especially cannas. But I did it one year to orchid cactus that had scale. I said live or die. It works. It is a systemic and lasts about 6 weeks. It has some fertilizer in it but I use it because it lasts so long. It keeps the nasty worms off cannas. I do any plant because if it kills the plant I am no worse off than throwing it away.

I hate to use chemicals becuase of the lizards and frogs. That is why I use a granular systemic. I can control where it is and not everywhere like when I sprayed.

I have nothing against anyone spraying. We do what we need when we need. Try orthene it is in a dark green jug. I read the bayer one but it doesn't last as long.

Hope you can get this under contol. Nothing worse than worrys over what we work so hard to see grow, bloom and prosper.

Blessings,
Sandy ^8^

I am not convinced that there are any bugs checked a leaf out under a magnifying glass I know it looks like it, but I really don't think so.
I'll buy the "some kind of virus" first.

The buds are growing normally and the whole bush should bloom soon.
Here's a picture.

Gita

Don't foget everyone that critters attack plants under stress.....while bugs may be present I think that the underlying cause is something else.perhaps when the weather settles down it may all settle down.
Hope that is the case for all involved. :)

I would not think it is bugs with blooms that healthy and not dropping. Not sure it is not a weather thing. Please when that is in bloom post a picture. It is gorgeous with all those blooms. Did you say what color it is?

Maybe this will help, Gita. I doubt if your soil is too alkaline for it and I'm sure if there were aphids you'd be seeing them so it may be simply the dry weather.


On our perennial hibiscus, a few fringes of the leaves are curling up and in. I can't see any kind if insects. As of now they are not changing color. The plants are loaded with buds. Do you have any guesses? (E-mail reference)

A: Curling leaves are usually an indication of drought or salt stress. I suggest attempting to keep them well hydrated with high quality water.

Q: We have two hardy hibiscus plant that were planted this spring in north central Kansas, have grown and are blooming, but the leaves are curling both upward and downward right from the beginning of the growth. Some of the buds also drop off before blooming. We feed them miracle grow monthly and water as needed. Do you have any suggestions? (E-mail reference, Kansas)

A: Hibiscus are somewhat temperamental and are not on my list of favorite plants. Although they are touted as pH adaptable, it could be the high pH of your soil that is causing the leaf curl; possibly the hot, dry, Kansas air is causing bud drop. Try adding sphagnum peat moss to the soil to sustain an even moisture regime and depress the pH somewhat; try spray misting the buds to see if that reduces bud drop. Where these plants thrive, they can look great! Also, remember to prune hard next spring to encourage large blooms and fresh growth.

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extnews/hortiscope/flowers/hibiscus.htm

Typical problems for hibiscus include aphids, spider mites, yellow leaves and bud drop. Aphids are often found on the tips of shoots and on the buds. They cause uneven, curling leaves and stunted growth.

http://www.aces.edu/dept/extcomm/specialty/feb28kgard.html

Will try to address some of your suggestions:

The clump is about 5' tall and is made up of 2 different colors. Pinkish white and a 5-petaled red. A bit different! I will post pictures....

This plant is neither stressed or under watered nor over fertilized. I am rather lax at fertilizing. Need to do it more.....

It has been in the same spot for about 6-7 years and has bloomed the last 3 or 4. Never a problem!

It is next to an old Juniper bush and also an Azalea bush. Will post picture from a distance for you.

Hart--both of the links you sent are for the Tropical Hibiscus. Mine is a perennial and dies back to the ground each year. It re-grows in late Spring. Like the more common "dinner plate", perennial Hibiscus, I don't think they care what soil they grow in.

Basically, I am not fretting about it any more as the flower buds are doing OK and there's nothing I can do anyway by now. Just hoping for cooler weather...

OK! Here's the bush from a distance. In the foreground is the Azalea and behind it (about 2' away) is the Juniper.

As you can see, one of the red blooms just opened up today.

Different--Huh?

This was taken in 2005.
Here is a close-up of the pinkish white one.

And a close-up of the red bloom.

Anyone know the name of the red (or white) Hibiscus???

...Fast forward a month........

My red Hibiscus--the one with the deformed leaves--is now done blooming and it has oodles of seed pods ripening. See "history" above.

I have a question.

Do any of you on this Forum think that the seeds from this season will, somehow, be defective or carry some of this problem if they are planted next year?
I know I will be collecting a lot of seeds (again!) and I don't want to send them to someone if this leaf problem might be, in some way, "genetic.

I have to say that the cupping of the leaves never progressed any further than what it was in the Spring. The blooms were OK--but a bit smaller than usual. Then we did have this horrible heat for a month!
It is also possible that he plant is getting very root bound, but I am not about to dig out an 8 year old perennial Hibiscus. I KNOW what kind of roots it can have.
Should I attempt to divide it next Spring before it sprouts?

Any and all advice and opinions are welcome.

Thanks, Gita

This message was edited Aug 20, 2007 9:16 PM

Now--I have a Kopper King Hibiscus also at the other end of this bed.

I posted the 6' tall one that is on the opposite side of my house. Even though I bought both of them at the same time and planted them both on the same day, this one has not even come close to growing as big as the one on my east side. The east side gets really, really good sun until about 3PM.
The other one, on the West side, has some maple root competition and it is also more shaded from the tree, but still gets decent light.

This really puzzled me--WHY it was so much shorter???
After a while, this KK Hib. also started showing signs of the Funny, leathery leaves that were on the Datura. See above.
When it finally bloomed, the bloom was so different from the other one (on the east side). Really weird! (I will attach pictures).

Several weeks ago when all the blooming was done, I simply cut the tops out on this struggling KK H. It is re-growing nicely and has a couple of buds on it. I will see what THESE look like soon.

Here is how the leaves were getting on this smaller KK Hibiscus. Look closely at the newer leaves on top.

This is what the blooms looked like when it started blooming. Weird spacing! It should all be one, big, round flower!

The subsequent blooms were a little better.