approx 139 - 81 year old pressed MG flower

thought this would be interesting - scroll to the bottom -

http://202.255.200.30/e-rekihaku/113/index.html

nice mutants, huh?

Does anyone see anything familiar?

I'm seeing some mutations that we no longer seem to have. What a shame!

The far right one in illustration 3 looks like the stem might be what is called "fasciated" - Fasciated stems that I have seen look like ribbed, flat, wide boards. In my garden, it was lilium regale, and in a local meadow, it was a blackberry cane. But I can't tell from this picture if the stem is flat or round. One source I can't remember said that this is caused by a virus - wonder what else it could be.

Ron, do you know if any (and which) of these mutant characteristics might have been caused by a virus or other agent, and if so, do they piggyback somehow on DNA from generation to generation or do they alter the DNA permanently or what?

Hope I'm not putting you on the spot.

Beth, now there's a project for this forum: to breed these mutants back into existence. I wonder if the genes for them are still lurking around and just need to be brought out.

We have enough members to do grow outs. Noone has enough space to grow everything so a group effort to distribute and grow batches of seeds would be a great idea. Then pictures can be shared of results on a thread dedicated to the project.

DNA never just goes away its still there just hideing

Spontanious mutations do "go away" however, and since most mutations are harmful or lethal to the plant's survival we do lose them. I'm assuming all the mutations seen in these scrolls were successfully grown and reproduced, or they wouldn't have taken time to document them.

The project would really be difficult if they reproduced these mutations by rooting cuttings instead of saving seed.

It would be great if we could figure out which genes correspond to which characteristics and mutations. There are probably depths to genetics itself that would shed light on how to go about bringing back a lost mutant, too.

Does anyone know any good references on these two subjects?

Two other sets of old woodblock MGs (they've been posted here before) are:

http://caliban.mpiz-koeln.mpg.de/~stueber/asagao/

http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/slides/slide068-079.html

Everyone chime in - dreamers and knowledgeables all welcome

I'm not familiar with mutations/genes just yet . . . but if you need some space to grown something out, I can find some!

I have spent much time studying this very topic! Kyushu University's JMG site has an extensive collection of historic prints published over the years by the various Japanese Asagao societies. The site is in Japanese, but one learns to translate pages through the various online translators available.

here is the site: http://mg.biology.kyushu-u.ac.jp/

It has a menu along the left side. The link to the page that then has links to the various prints is the fifth active link counting from the bottom!

I have begun collecting various mutant systems that produce some of the pictured flowers. Many of the genes responsible for the various aspects of these "lost" flowers have been isolated and identified, though how some of the pictured flowers were produced is still a mystery.....meaning that the genetic factors have not been rediscovered. Much of this information and material was considered a "National Treasure" and kept secret....and subsequently lost over time. WWII was devastating in this regard.

The challenge in producing many of these mutant flowers is the fact that they are sterile....so you can not just save seed from them to grow again. Most of the dramatic and key factors are recessive, so the systems are perpetuated through plants that carry these recessive genes, yet look nothing like the mutant plants and flowers, but they do look exactly like the plants that do not carry the genes. It becomes a systematic "game" trying to keep track of which plants (seed lots) that actually carry the recessive factors and are capable of producing the desired flowers. Then to get the mutant "appreciation" flowers, one must grow many plants to get the one that has all the factors and produces the mutant traits. When many sterile recessive factors are required for a specific plant/flower, the numbers get large....often approaching 64 plants grown to get the one with all the factors. Not for the faint of heart!...but it can be fun! Other very pretty and less complicated systems only require one to grow about 10 plants to get the desired result.

Arlan

I have seed for one system (Q0426) that produces a beautiful feathered blue flower and yellow dragonclaw type leaves. Anyone who is interested in learning how to grow these is welcome to try some. For those interested, I wrote a verbose explanation of this system here: http://davesgarden.com/journal/d/t/atenkley/4889/

Here is a picture of the flower this system can produce: http://davesgarden.com/journal/j/si/106954/

Just D-mail me and send a SASBE.

Arlan