Is this an American Elm?

Was in Maine this weekend and dug out this small, pretty volunteer seedling from our property - it had to be cleared anyway to make room for a septic system that will be dug in a few weeks....so we figured we were "saving" it. We were told this was some sort of American Beech. We do have huge European Beeches on our property back in Mass, but were not that familiar with American Beeches.

We put it in the ground this afternoon (back home) - but are now questioning this idea.

After much research, I'm thinking this is an American Elm. The tree is vase shaped, the biggest leaves are 6.5". It's a very lime-green color. There are other volunteer seedlings scattered among the Maine property - all growing as understory trees among much bigger pines - our immediate thought was that we were looking for something that would spread and fill up a shady spot and these seems to very graceful and pretty trees...they really illuminate the understory.

Any thoughts? I'm thinking this was not the best idea we had today....! There's the size consideration, Dutch Elm Disease, seeds/more volunteers (would I be creating a monster forest of elms?).

What would you do?

Thanks - Kara

Here is a close-up of the leaves...

One more...with flash

Not an American Elm. Teeth are double on American Elm. Pretty sure you have a Beech there. Try Fagus grandifolia. Very nice tree.

Wow - didn't know that the beech leaf could be this big. The leaf is so light colored and soft to the touch - the other beeches we have have tougher, more leathery leaves (although they are Fagus Sylvatica). Perhaps that is the nature of the Fagus Grandifolia young tree? I love trees, but am not an expert by any means!

Thanks so much for responding - I'm really glad to hear that it's a beech - was getting worried about it being an elm! Does the American Beech grow as slowly as the European Beech? Not sure this has enough space if it is indeed a beech....

I know how big the European Beech gets...we have four big beech trees on our property, this is the base of our Fagus Sylvatica 'Asplenifolia'...it's the smallest beech we have - and that's a 7' Heptacodium (LOVE that little tree!) on the hill behind it for scale...

Thanks again Equil!

Umm, I don't think I've ever seen an American Beech leaf that was 6.5" long. I don't think mine are any longer than 3-4".

hmmmm - so are you re-thinking the Fagus Grandifolia?

Not really. Did you go on line and take a look for images of Fagus grandifolia leaves or did you just go by what I posted? Your photos were excellent for me. So nice and crisp. I think you should go online and take a look for yourself and see what you think. One thing that always stands out for me on Fagus leaves is what I call that little hook of a tooth.

Yes, I did go online and do some research. And you are of course right about that hook - I did come across a picture on DG that it looked like, and it was an elm - but much of what's on the internet corresponds with what you are saying about Fagus Grandifolia.

One site said that the leaves can be 5 1/2 inches long - so maybe this isn't such a stretch? We have tons (and I mean tons) of European Beech seedlings, some 12", some 4' and those leaves are pretty much the same size as on the full grown mammoth moms.

You know, when I saw these trees, (and some 15'-25' ones), the bark reminded me of beech and the leaf looked just like a beech leaf only GIGANTIC! That leaf size threw me. One Maine friend said that he thought they were beeches and that where he lived (about 70 miles away) they weren't very long-lived - they'd live for 15-20 yrs then suddenly die. Strange, unless he's talking about Beech Bark Disease - the trees on our property in Maine looked very healthy and I didn't see any signs of BBD.

I've been to an amazing grove of very old-growth pines in Maine, many are 100'+ tall - and the understory is all young beech - haven't been there at this time of year though.....I read somewhere that was the life-cycle of the forest - that those pines (some are in decline) are being replaced by hardwoods.

That being said, I certainly don't want to bring something into my yard that might harm my favorite beeches - although this little tree looks to be in great shape.....

Kara:

You certainly have Fagus grandifolia there. You can always tell American beech from European beech by the toothed margins on the foliage. You'll find a wavy margin on your Fagus sylvatica but a dearth of dentations. If you are really into obscure ID characters...count vein pairs (with European beech having less at 5-9 pairs and American beech having more at 11-15 pairs). Go for it.

I'd venture that the reason you have 6.5" leaves on your little beech is because you found it growing in a shady spot. It is not unusual for trees in shade to have fewer leaves with greater leaf surface trying to gather light for photosynthesis. See if this isn't true, when comparing other young trees that are growing around your property.

Insect and disease transmission are always a hazard when moving plants around. If you aren't confident that there is no risk, maybe you shouldn't do it.

Another hazard/unknown with Fagus grandifolia: this is a tree which consorts with various soil mycorrhizae and other flora/fauna in symbiotic relationships. These plants grow better together than separate. This doesn't mean that it is impossible to do otherwise. You just might not get the same results if those flora/fauna are not present in your MA soils.

No dearth of information from the Valley. I see the oversized leaves on small Oaks growing in the woods, in some cases rediculously so.

I've wondered why there are so many cultivars of F. sylvatica, but none that I know of from our native Beech. Is this because the Euro Beech is not into the symbiotic relationships VV speaks of, making it far more easy for the nursery trade to grow and market?

Thanks to all who responded.

We are watching our new little beech friend here to see whether it'll make it. Still a bit shocked looking but it's only been 24hrs. Not so sure our big European beeches will be symbiotic towards this tiny American intruder - but we will see....

I really love this forum and mostly spend time reading posts - I learn so much from all of you experts - and thanks for being kind to me when I came out of the shadows to post!

Here's a nice shot for you tree folks - this was taken last year - shows our pretty 20' Japanese Maple Bloodgood with the European Beeches behind it. I will try and get out to take a photo of them this week - they are spectacular...

Kara

oops - meant to post this one...

The single greatest hazard to me when trying to grow American Beech was that they, like American Yellowwood, don’t seem to like their roots disturbed. I have not had good luck with bareroots of this species (have lost all but one of these and the survivor was barely clinging to life a week ago). I have had no luck with B&B (two or three shocked and promptly went to plant heaven about 5 or 6 years ago) and I had no luck with a few saplings I dug up in lower Michigan and brought home (those shocked and went to plant heaven the fastest). Finally I enjoyed a little success with this species by simply sowing the seed directly into staked areas. I chose a lower lying area under several bur oaks and they are already larger and considerably more healthy looking than the bareroot planted three years ago. I really don’t think these plants like being transplanted all that well no matter how big of a root ball you take with them. They’re right up there with Yellowwood for me.

Some of the largest leaves I have seen of American Beech were sported by plants which had arisen from root suckers in Indiana and those may have been over 5” but I don’t think I ever saw any that were in the 6.5" range, have any of you personally seen any with that type of leaf length? The leaves of most Beech saplings that germinate in an understory are generally larger than those of the parent but it was my understanding this may be one of several adaptive traits (along with suspected allelopathy) ensuring regeneration in a Forest where Sugar Maple (has the advantage because of its seed dispersal mechanism) and American Beech are codominant. Regardless, I don’t think I’ve seen leaf length in the 6.5 range on naturally occurring offspring. Kinda cool though because they are a really attractive leaf.

Many trees benefit form the existence of a mycorrhizal association and I think upwards of 70% of all terrestrial plants are capable of forming this type of a relationship so why not a Beech? I did not realize F. grandifolia was dependent upon symbiotic relationships for survival.

OK - I'm going to try another photo I actually took yesterday - this is from the other side of the house showing the canopy of the 4 beeches (the far left one is the my favorite - the cut-leaf) behind our house. I have a question about these trees, but will perhaps start a new thread about that. Is that a Hemlock in the front? I can't remember right now....we had to take down a 100' "old world" white pine that was 10' from the house - it was hollow from the ground to about 15' up - carpenter ants. We love trees!
Kara

view from the back

i will try that JM one more time...

Nice spot! That conifer looks like a Norway Spruce, Picea abies. Hemlocks usually have flat leaves, about half an inch or so. Take a look at this plantfiles page:

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/58467/

Yep, Norway Spruce, both centre and far right.

Resin

I have a volunteer elm on the back of my property. Thinking of planting it on the parkway..