Pollenation questions

Hello all,

I have 5 or 6 different cultivars of I. nil growing this year, and was wondering how easily they can cross pollenate. If there is a reasonable chance of this, what is the best way to prevent it so that the resulting seeds are true? I have read about taping the buds so that they don't open--the flower then self-pollenates--is this the best way? If the flowers can self pollenate, wouldn't it still be better, genetically speaking, to hand pollenate among different vines of the same cultivar? And once they were hand pollenated, then tape the bloom shut or cover with a bag? Thanks for the help!

Mark

Hi Mark,

I can't answer how easily I. nil cultivars will cross-pollinate, but to keep a strain of this seed true to its identity, the consensus on this forum seems to be pretty consistent about bagging the flowers to control interpollination. Here is Gardener2005's method of controlling pollination of MGs:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3210395

I like her method of tying up the flower, but am not sure if that's as foolproof as bagging.

Also, I'd like to know what materials & tools folks are using to make those ID tags they tie around the pedicel to a pollinated flower and where they find them. Would heavy foil (perhaps folded) work that is marked with a marker for engraving?

You're right about better genetic results being achieved when vines from different seeds of a given cultivar are cross-pollinated. I'm sure this subject can be better expanded by others more knowledgeable about this than I. Anyone have more comments on this?

Good question, Mark.

Hey Mark - The ease with which different cultivars and strains of Ipomoea nil will readily cross fertilize is very variable as there is a host of genetic cross compatibility factors which I think are really much too complex for this venue...

Generally the further apart you plant the vines that you'd like to prevent cross fertilization in >the better...also the more plants of other species with alot of flowers that are attractive to bees between the MG's that you'd like to prevent cross fertilization in the better...
because as the bees visit each flower some pollen is lost and picked up...so,if the bee visits e.g. 100 flowers of different species of flowers inbetween visits to your groups of MG's the chances of the bee having compatible pollen is greatly reduced much more so than if the bee goes directly from compatible MG to compatible MG...
also different species of MG's will not naturally cross fertilize,so using different species of MG's inbetween cultivars that you'd like to remain true to type can help...
so the more bee loving flowers inbetween the plants you want to only be fertilized by the same exact cultivar >the better...

Regarding natural or hand pollination of different plants of the same cultivar...it depends on what you are interested to achieve...
e.g., if you just want the general characteristics of the cultivar >cross fertilization between different plants will usually result in greater genetic diversity and in nature this has proved to produce plants that can adapt and survive in a wider range of climatic variable conditions...

If you are trying to isolate particular plants out of the same cultivar group that are showing certain individualistic traits that you want to isolate >then preventing cross fertilization between plants of the same cultivar should be instituted...

Hand pollenation is usually the best way to insure you get the traits that you are looking for...although hand pollenation can produce plants that are not as fit to survive in a wild environment as plants that are naturally pollenated by bees,other types of animal pollenators and wind...

Hope that helps somewhat...

TTY,...

Ron

Thanks for the info yall. I'll bag some of the blooms to insure I get true seeds. Does anyone know of any vendor that sells small bags for bagging blooms?

Ron, I am not trying to select any trait--the blooms on all of these look pretty uniform to me. I just want to keep the seeds true, and was also wondering if it was bad in any way for the flowers to self pollenate over several generations or more. If not, I will not bother with hand pollenation, but will just tie or bag the blooms instead. As for natural pollenaters, I am not aware of any bee keepers within a mile or two of my house, and the wild bees never really did recover from the mites several years back. It has been a few years since I've seen any honey bees in the spring clovers that come up in my lawn. But there are plenty of bumble bees and wasps in the area--though I've never seen them on a MG flower. So I guess most of my MG flowers are just naturally self-pollenating.

Mark

Hey Mark - if your MG cultivar is doing okay >then I'd just let it continue for now...if the flowers are really only selfing...this could potentially cause self-incompatibility issues at some point...and you might need to bring in fresh stock of the same type...

I've got plenty of bumblebees on my MG's all the time...they get to the MG's bright and early...and the little green bees...

I'd be surprised if there are truly no insects whatsoever that are acting as pollenators at some point >especially very(!) early...but maybe(?!)...

If you can see that any(!) pollen has been displaced from the stamens and is deposited on the corolla >then something has been 'in there'...

TTY,...

Ron

I wrap the flower petals into a burrito shape and start the yarn at the bottom and wrap it around and fasten at the top. I have observed bees seemingly not even recognizing the tied pods as being flowers and they hunted around elsewhere. So far my grow outs are showing this method has exellent results provided you have a cultivar that breeds true from seeds and is not mixed to begin with. The Ukigumo has come back the third time true with hand pollination and so has another pink blizzard flower I like.

The bags are fine but don`t tie them too tight or you will strangle your bud and kill your potential pod. The truth is if an insect wants in there bad enough it will find a way. Remove them the very next morning asap because you don`t want moisture collecting in there. This tying and bagging simply greatly improves your chances of getting true seeds.

If you aren`t getting swarmed with bees then you can untie several flowers and spread pollen around to different plants to increase gentic diversity. Buying new seeds can help with this as well.

This message was edited May 18, 2007 9:42 AM

I noticed this morning the bees were oblivious to my tied flowers. I also am trying out some small drawstring jewelry/gift bags.

I like to buy the big thin,strong and flexible tags. I cut them into smaller rectangles and then punch a hole with a hole puncher on one end. I use a permanent marker to write the information. I have a box with the tags,hole puncher,cut yarn pieces,camera and a trash receptacle etc. and I tote it with me every morning.

Hi Ron,

I've got plenty of thrips and ants! And the stinkbugs are back on my tomatoes and peppers. LOL. I also saw some type of bee on my cucumbers this morning--not a regular honey bee. The pollen in the MGs does look moved around, but I always thought that was just from the breeze. Anyway, I am getting seed pods, so they are getting pollenated. But I will hand pollenate some and bag or tie some others just to be sure I'm getting some true seed.

Thanks for all the info!

Mark

Hi Mark - Glad to hear that the flowers are being pollentated the way you want them to be...

just thought I'd mention some supplementary info regarding thrips...

thrip posts
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=1699562
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=1699664
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=1699581
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=2034588

thrip photos
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=1699409
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=1699411

the insects that can act as pollinators are present around the clock and can get to the flower(s) before you do...

TTY,...

Ron

Hi Mark,

In both the nils and purpureas I will always keep the open pollinated seeds and grow them out. You can get some very interesting flowers showing up in the open pollinated seeds and I enjoy them because you can let them be beautiful with no tags hanging on them.

The hand pollinated ones are for the more expensive Japanese Morning glories or the mutants grown outside or perhaps rarely occuring colors or shapes in the purpureas that you want to try and preserve the unusual qualities.

Karen

Here are a few pics to illustrate what I`m trying out. I don`t know about the gold color though. They were what I could find so I decided to go ahead and give it a try. It is a start. You put a yarn on the stem below the bud to ID the pod as being bagged,then you slip the bag over and use the drawstrings to gently close it. The next morning you loosen it and make sure the pollen has gotten where it needs to be and then put it back, I s`pose in the evening you could just move the bags over onto other flowers that are ready.

Here is a close up of the little drawstring bag. The bees appeared to ignore the bags prefering open flowers. They are aso ultra light yet opaque material so they might be good for this. I hope this helps. Karen






This message was edited May 19, 2007 5:03 PM

Great thread, Mark, and thanks for answering my questions, too, all.