Unsnarling PlantFiles' Non-Classification of Ipomoea yojiro

In trying to understand how to classify Rosita ( http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/720085/ ), I've looked at a few other morning glories said to be Ipomoea yojiro in PlantFiles. Heh heh. Well, one question that's going begging here is: What good is any system of classification for purposes of identification, if it is not used consistently? Y'all should look up how PlantFiles enters the species for yojiro hybrids like:

Rosita (Ipomoea tricolor)
Yagaruma (Youjiro Morning Glory)
Mt. Fuji (Ipomoea x imperialis) and
Maisugata (Ipomoea Nil - note how they capitalized the name of the species)

Another question comes from the editor's comment in Ron's post to I. Yagaruma about "...hybrid entries...[lacking] a specific epithet." ( http://davesgarden.com/members/RON_CONVOLVULACEAE/ ) Do I guess right that when the editor uses the phrase "specific epithet" that he is referring to the name of the species to which a hybrid belongs?

Whether or not I'm guessing right in the previous paragraph, it seems to me that the editor is treating 1) hybrids WITHIN a species and 2) interspecific hybrids BETWEEN 2 different species (like I. yojiro) the same - which naturally creates confusion. Therefore, wouldn't the above confusion regarding cultivars within Ipomoea yojiro be cleared up if the editor could treat cultivars descending from I. yojiro as he would cultivars descending from other species?

From the editor's comment, do I understand correctly that the editor feels that "common nomenclature standards and practice" would not allow Ipomoea yojiro to be treated as other species are within the genus Ipomoea? If the result is confusion to the point of inaccuracy, can't PlantFiles use it's system of classification UN-commonly?

I look forward to any clarification. Maybe if we can refine the way we're presenting our case for PlantFiles to use Ipomoea yojiro in some way that would resolve the confusion, we might get better results than we have so far.

I agree. But the family Convolvulaceae is awash in a sea of those confusions. Reasons:

out of date synonyms
each continent has their own favorite synonyms.
No printed authority.
Japanese names for non Japanese cultivars
People naming things at random
Artificial specific epithets (imperialis?)
Using the same exact specific epithet in more than one genus.
Updates done for local reasons.
No chain of command in authority to update.
No society or organization to push for global updating.
No naming standards .

These are the very reasons that the different plant societies were formed. The registrar of each society enforces the rules about the naming of new plants. If they didn't, there would be those people that belong to several plant societies, and use the same names for everything. President Bush #1, #2, #3 right on through PB #50. This person will plant 50 seeds and give a name to each one, and sell the seeds as RARE. Rare is the most heavily pemped or pandered word on the mg forum. The registrar makes the hobbiest gardener face the need to be professional about name giving. oOops, I am starting to rant. Time to quit. Frank

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/720085/

ditto

Well said - very nice rant, Frank. Thank you.

Karen - The epithet refers to the species...

There is definite inconsistency in the way that the youjiro hybrids have been entered...but I don't think addinmg to the confusion is going to help and byu adding to it I mean adding >Rosita...I personally am not in support of Rosita being entered at all...

Rosita was first offered by Seedsman who apparently dispenses what rose or chocolate Ipomoea nil he has overstock on...

B&T has also been offering Ipomoea nil seeds as 'Rosita' for several years...again no definite consistency...

The latest 'craze' has been to apply the name 'Rosita' to the Yaguruma youjiro which is being done by several European merchants...

There is no Ipomoea tricolor named Rosita and this just represents an entry by someone who did not know any better mimicking whatever misinformation is dished out by distributors who care far less about accuracy of the botanical names than they do 'sales appeal' of any marketing names...

So,all things considered...it looks like the scales of objectivity weigh against placing any 'Rosita' in the PlantFiles...

I believe that the best 'compromise' with regard to the Youjiro is to list them as Ipomoea nil because

1) they are partly Ipomoea nil

2) the sepals look exactly like Ipomoea nil

3) they will cross with other Ipomoea nil

The fact that they are also part Ipomoea purpurea and can cross with other Ipomoea purpurea is a single factor that the users of the PlantFiles may need to garner from some additional references...

If the species epithet is left completely blank >that imples that the parentage is completely unknown which is more misleading than than having at least one of the parent species to which they most closely resemble >as per the sepals which are one of the most important species identity features in this particular cluster of plants...

So 2 positions

There is insufficient objective evidence to warrant any entry for a 'Rosita'

The community of MG enthusiasts and those concerned about learning species identification and potential cross fertilizations would better be served(as per the constraints of the PlantFiles) by having the All of any type of Youjiro(including the Mt.Fuji series) listed as Ipomoea nil...

So,in this case my hope is that reason will reign over 'madness' when it comes closer to
a)more accurate botanical classification
and
b) non-entry of somewhat 'frivolous' entries that are of highly questionable and/or otherwise of a rather dubious nature...

Questions arise...reasons offered...

TTY,...

Ron

Thanks, Ron. Later on tonight I'll submit error reports for each youjiro cultivar I'm aware of to PlantFiles keepers, asking them if they would consider changing epithets of these youjiros to I. nil for the sake of consistency.

So, what would other named youjiro cultivars be, besides the ones I listed in the first post?

I wonder if any of them might include efforts to cross a feathered, double I. purpurea with an I. youjiro? To me, that would be incredible, and underlying the awe with science makes it more of a marvel.

bluespiral-karen,

ALL of the youjiros are Ipomoea nil x Ipomoea purpurea...and according to Dr.Yoneda who created these hybrids they are all youjiros
http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/asagao/yoneda_db/E/relatives/04_3.html
You can see the smaller flowered and the larger(Mt.Fuji type) of flowers on the link above

The Mt.Fuji series is simply a marketing name for one of the youjiros and was never applied by Dr.Yoneda...

I have found that the best way to get certain entries in the PlantFiles changed is to contact the person who made the original entry...the Staff is usually much(!) more willing to change an entry for the person who originally entered it and I honestly think that is the best way to go with these youjiro hybrids...

You will find that quite often the first or second person to post a photo to an entry is the person who entered it...you can then click onto that persons name >bring up their homepage >click onto what plants they have entered in the PlantFiles and you'll be able to see who first entered an entry in the PlantFiles...

Most of the Ipomoea nil lacking a species epithet were made when very few people knew (or even cared!) about correct binomials...but now that more and more people are becoming interested in doing hand pollination and knowing which cultivars are capable of crossing naturally and/or by hand pollenation >knowing the correct species DOES matter alot..(!)

The quality control on the early erroneous entries is up to the community to address with the people who made the initial entries >as they are the people who can most easily correct the entries to best serve the people who rely upon the accuracy of the PlantFiles >most especially including the MG forum enthusiasts...

TTY,...

Ron

Well said Ron. I nominate Ron for "Registrar" of all Convolvulacea in the USA. Not laughing at all. Frank

I agree,you cannot learn the correct species unless you are actually viewing the correctly labeled species. Imagine a person showing a baby new to the world a picture book and telling them a dog is a cat. They sure would be learning it wrong...and then they would soon be "unlearning" the incorrect information when someone said,"No baby,that is a dog. Kitty cat is over there."

In my experience with PlantFiles, so far, the keepers have always made any valid correction for mistakes I have found (which I research first). Being an amateur, I try to frame my discovery as a question - not a statement - to which I would like clarification, and I think that approach helps to elicit the role of PlantFiles keepers as rescuers of truth.

That's a great suggestion to try to involve the person who made a questionable entry in the first place. Also, if all fails, there's always the comment section.

And thank you all for your feedback. It'll be slow going to address what I'm aware of regarding morning glories in PlantFiles (this time of year especially - we've been building an arbor for MGs from extremely generous folks on this forum with hand tools up the hill on sloping ground, and recuperation takes quite a chunk of time). Hopefully this thread will be a resource and encouragement for anyone else to try to fix MG mistakes in PlantFiles, too.

PS - Are there any other "marketing names" for yourjiros that could use clarification in PlantFiles?

bluespiral - Your sincerity is appreciated,but I've already tried with these particular entries and I know what the 'official' response is...and the official response is that since there is no official registry for Morning Glory cultivars as there is for many other plant groups...the PlantFiles administrators will cite that as the reason for leaving the species epithets blank especially regarding any 'japanese'
types' because of the unknown amount of 'hybridizing' that has taken place...

I would very much like to see the entries listing the correct species,but although I'm personally very sure about the species >My personal opinion is insufficient because of the lack of an official registry...

I reiterate that I believe the best way to get the errors corrected is via the person who originally made the entry...otherwise what is going to happen is that the youjiro that are already entered in the way that I have stated best serves the community will be 'corrected' so that the species will be removed and the process will then have backfired...

Please(!) strongly consider what I have stated as the better way to address the entries in question...


Please read the administrators note to my comment and this is what we are most likely to wind up with if the administrators are 'pushed' on these hybrids...i.e.,the ones that are already entered as nil may have the epithet of nil removed and there will be even less accuracy in the PlantFiles...especially when trying to conduct a search by the species...

Yagaruma...currently no species epithet,but previously entered as Ipomoea x imperialis...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/57867/index.html
previously associated with another entry
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/107750/index.html
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/Gerris2_1124600848_512.jpg
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/Gerris2_1124600927_826.jpg
that has been removed from the search,but will sometimes still appear if clicked onto where it was linked in previous posts like here
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=2617163
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/703761/

I have been unable to determine who first entered Yaguruma or 'Red Star'(as the current entry was originally named) in the PlantFiles or it may be alot easier to change this entry...

Emma had mentioned that her 'rosita' were showing a dilution of the usual pink found on the Yaguruma,but as the lighter dilution is most likely a sport as mentioned and it is very questionable if this lighter sport really represents the majority of the 'rosita' that is offered by the various european suppliers who are known to obtain supplies from many different sources and substitute sources as they see fit...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/720085/

'Rosita' explored to some degree in the thread here
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/555920/

Sayaka...no species epithet...entered by Zemerson who is no longer an active member and therefore unlikely to update this entry
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/114631/index.html

Mai Sugata...entered as Ipomoea nil
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/106236/index.html

Chiaki...entered as Ipomoea nil...no photo entered yet
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/137871/index.html


Fuji no Murasaki entered as Ipomoea nil
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/139460/index.html

Fuji no Sora entered as Ipomoea nil
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/139202/index.html

Fuji no Beni entered as Ipomoea nil although the photo is of Akatsuki no Beni...IMHO
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/139459/index.html

Fuji no Momo entered as Ipomoea nil...currently no photo
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/159395/index.html

Fuji no Mine entered as Ipomoea nil...no photo yet
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/133778/index.html

Fuji no AO entered as Ipomoea nil...no photo yet
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/133778/index.html


Mt Fuji 'mix'...entered as Ipomoea x imperialis...if someone is interested to contact the person who originally entered this >she might be able to demonstate how easy it is for the person who originally made the entry to correct it
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/49146/index.html

So(!),there are 11 entries...8 youjiros are entered as Ipomoea nil...2 youjiro are entered without a species epithet and 1 is entered as 'imperialis'

Do we want to risk losing the 8 that are entered as Ipomoea nil(?!) for the 3 that would benefit from an update(?!)...

I propose that we attempt to establish proper rapport with the persons who originally made these entries and try to effectuate changes via that route...

Just offering an honest opinion...

TTY,...

Ron

I agree with Ron. The administrators will tell you the same thing.

I am too old and impatient, to try to give therapy to some young idealistic person that likes to post pictures in the plant files, just because it is allowed. Perhaps it would be better to make the photos pass through a jury before they go into the plant file, so that people with real experience can scan for anything dubious.

Until we have a legitimate body of mg people, united in such goals there will be no registry. After this happens, and an international body of mg people is recognized by the International Botanical Congress, (or whatever their up to date name is now), then a registry can begin, with their recognition . If making a mistake in plant taxonomy were the end of Botany and Horticulture, there wouldn't be any Latin names at all today. It is really about refining the registry of Horticulture and of Botany, always. Oops, there I go again. There is nothing I would rather rant about. Frank

Thanks, Ron - you've made the nature of the confusion much clearer to me for now. If any action is to be taken, I'll let you experts tackle it. Never a boring moment in the taxonomy field, is there?