My roots lack vitality :oP

I'm sure some of you have picked up on my saying that I'm having trouble with growing my AVs. I've been through a massive decline over the last 2 or 3 months in many of my AVs. So much so, that I've gone from over 500 plants and leaf pots down to less than 100. So, here's the story of what has happened and what I've done. I welcome any and all suggestions to help me keep the AVs I've got left.

As I was watering my AVs one morning and noticing the extreme lack of health some of them were displaying, I got to thinking about it, how bad some of them looked, how many I've had to throw away along and along, and decided I just had to find out what was going on. I found the number to the county agricultural agent, called him up, and he said to bring in a plant or two and some leaves. He wanted to check for pests. Naturally, I was worried to pieces that he would find the dreaded cyclamen mites. I took the two worst looking plants of the bunch (one of which I can't find anywhere even if I did want to buy it again), and leaves from several more that looked really bad, and paid the $12 fee (I thought this was supposed to be free!! Evidently not anymore...)

I waited a week and finally called because I couldn't stand the suspense anymore. Good news and bad were delivered... The good news was, no cyclamen mites! Yay! Then he said, "Your roots lack vitality." What?? I was almost offended! He said the root systems were not well developed, and the roots they had were thin and spindly. He said the plants I brought in had awfully wet soil, and I am sure they did. They had just been watered (again, I was watering when I decided to call him and took the plants and leaves to him that day) and then were sealed up in a plastic bag for several days. I had to water the ones at home because they were getting dry on the day he checked the ones he had. I can only assume the plastic bags are the reason they were still so wet.

He said my potting mix seemed to be of a nice, good consistency and asked if I fertilized regularly, used sterile ingredients, kept the mix sealed up after sterilizing so nothing could get in it, sterilized the pots before repotting. I answered yes to all the above. He asked if I wick water, bottom water, or top water. I said all of the above, some are wicked, some are bottom watered, and some are top watered. I've been doing that to see if I could figure out what they liked best. He said all those are fine and it sounded like I'm doing everything right.

I spent that evening going through my AVs and threw away over 100. I threw away about 50 more a few days later. Talk about a difficult job! I was heartbroken! I had a garbage can full of plants. I don't even want to think about it...

So what's the problem? If it isn't pests, and I'm doing things like I should, what is wrong? None of my Chiritas, Streps, Sinningias, Episcias, etc are showing any signs of any problems. It's only the AVs. I have kept some that look bad, but not horrible, trying to save them (and am still having to throw away one or two or three at a time now and again), and then I have some that look just fine. Are some varieties just easier to care for and those are the ones I'm not having trouble with? I just don't understand. Anybody have any ideas for me?

Just to make me happy, here's a picture of a few that are still doing very well! :o)

Hi Raingazer,
Aww, I don't know the answer I'm a newbie. But I wanted to give you a big hug. That must of been hard to throw away half your plants.
I hope you find the answer soon. :)

Sue

Remember that I am new to AV's...started in Janurary....the only two things I can think of are: do you grow under lights? Mine fill their pots with roots when I grow under lights.
Two....I use 1/2 perlite and 1/2 Schultz Av soil. I also change the soil every time I get a new plant

Also, I know I overfeed, but they look good and bloom well. I have tried the watermaid and it keeps them too wet.....
I also don't have any wicked making it very time consuming, but someday I will try.
I also make it a habit to always water from the bottom except to say that once a month I use no fertilizer. I really take each plant and go to the kitchen sink flushing thoroughly from the top to get rid of any salt buildups in the soil, trying to avoid water on the crown.....

That is all I know....the pros will be hanging around to help......

I noticed that you are using solo cups to grow......I suggest you order the 2", 21'2" and tiny 3" just for Av's from bluebird...they are the best and not that extpensive.....solo cups are great for starting leaves but not for growing I don't think.
Bluebird doesn't carry a 2", but they have the best 21/2' and tiny next size...not really a 3"...I reuse them after a clorox treatment....
I can't remember where I found the 2" (maybe Novasel)

This message was edited Apr 28, 2007 9:01 AM

Thank you for the hug, Sue! It was quite difficult to throw them away, but the ext. agent didn't really have any advice for me as far as how to fix the problem, so I figured it was best to let the worst ones go and try to save the ones I could. Thing is, I can't pinpoint anything about the ones which are doing so poorly and the ones which are doing so well. There's a mix of wick, top, and bottom watering in both groups. They're all treated the same. I think some of them are just fussy little spoiled brats! ;o)

Gail, I do grow them under lights. Again, no difference in the good and the bad. They're all under lights. As far as the pots, some are in the pots you suggested and some are in solo cups, in both groups. Some of the ones that have bloomed the heaviest were in solo cups, so I don't see that being the problem.

That's where I'm stumped. If all the ones that I was treating a certain way or were potted in a certain mix or type of pot were suffering, I could easily say that certain thing was the problem, but that's not the case. If all the ones that are suffering were from the same person or place, I could use that as the excuse, but again, not the case. See what I'm saying? I'm just completely puzzled by the whole thing.

Ironically, my absolute best AV is EverGrace, completely surrounded by suckers, which are blooming, too, and still in the hard, crunchy grower's potting mix, never repotted. It blooms *constantly*!

RainGazer,
Could you take pics of what you call bad and let us look...........we are all learning from your experience as horrible as it is for you....
I just know that anytime a plant looks down and kinda bad, I just plant it up again in the same pot with new soil and off it takes.....can you posts some pictures? At least save the crowns to repot maybe????

You don't wanna see...but I will. BRB with a picture.

Here's one.

And another

I told him I was very afraid that it was cyclamen mites and he said he spent extra time with them, searching every speck of them and even used a more powerful lens and did not see any cyclamen mites, nor any evidence of them. He said the damage wasn't consistent with the damage they cause anyway. He was sure that it was something cultural that I was doing wrong, not pests at all.

I am going to find a site that someone gave me on problems of AV's....
here it is:
[HYPERLINK@www.steverd.com]

This message was edited Apr 28, 2007 10:03 AM

http://www.steverd.com/violets/leaves/leaf-id.htm

This message was edited Apr 28, 2007 10:06 AM

Yep, I looked there. The ones that look like mine say check for mites, too much light, or too much fertilizer. It's been determined that it's not mites, so it must be light or fertilizer. Back to square one...why are some suffering and some not when they all get the same treatment? Grrr.....

My problem on one of mine was # 4.....I am looking at how hairy the leaves are on the pics....go to this site...you might have an answer

He says that hairy leaves can be caused by cold temps, which I certainly do have in my house during winter. It's an older drafty house. They're in the living room, which is the warmest room in the house, but there's only so much I can do, ya know?

Edited to say, maybe it was the cold temps of winter that started the problem and they just aren't able to bounce back. Does that sound reasonable to you?

This message was edited Apr 28, 2007 11:10 AM

I know this is horrible for you, but I have another suggestion.....be sure it is not too cool, but I keep a ceiling fan on all the time for good circulation.....a lot of people tell me that they keep floor fans pointed upward and keep on 24-7...I keep my ceiling fans on 24-7......anything is worth a try....do you believe that they might be too cold? I keep my temperature in the house set on 73 for heat or airconditioning.....

**I think you solved your own problem...too cold for these lovers of 70-75 degrees with good air circulation....sounds very reasonable to me...

This message was edited Apr 28, 2007 10:16 AM

If they are not diseased, don't throw them away particularly if they are named ones......if you could keep a heater in the room until your weather warms up, i would try it.......another good try might be......this is what i did in the winter time....I ordered those tents for gro light stands and every night I would zip them up totally in the winter time....I ordered mine from Charley's greenhouses but they were 49.00 plus shipping....I saw them elsewhere for 39.00, but of course I can't remember....I think you may not need them this year, but next winter i would certainly invest in them....keeps the plants cozy, humid and warm at night.....(or day in your zone)

I know they're not too cold now. I'm very cold-natured, so I don't keep the air turned low at all, 75 during the summer. Now, in the winter it stays cooler than that because natural gas prices are so high, so I just bundle up. The rest of the family is fine during the winter, so it can't be that cold, but it might be too much for the AVs. Our humidity drops in the winter, too, quite low at times. I keep cups of water sitting on my plant stand during the winter, and the bottom of the trays have just the smallest bit of water in them. The trays have those little ridges in the bottom that the pots sit on, so the pots aren't in water, but there's just the shallowest level of water possible in those trays.

We were both typing at the same time so I sort of answered you before you posted. ;o)

Our weather is plenty warm enough now, and the humidity is fine, too. They may perk back up and be fine through the summer. I don't have any that are on the brink of death right now. Those pictured above are my worst ones and I do think they still have a chance, so I won't give up on them yet. The ones I threw away were beyond what I felt had a chance, though. I'll look for those tents you're talking about as winter draws nearer.

good!!!! don't throw away anymore, but i would repot, RainGazer.....give them a fresh start and I would never let an Av sit in any water of any kind......
good luck

I got to thinking about the cold in the winter. It's not freezing in here by any means, but it does get to 65 at night sometimes. I put a thermometer on the plant stand back during the winter, and as early as I get up some days, it's as cold then as it gets. I never saw any temp lower than 65. That could have been enough to do it for some of them, I suppose.

The ceiling fan stays on 24/7 in the living room all year long, and the fan on the central heat/air unit stays on all the time, too. We have one of those electrostatic air filters, and we keep the fan running constantly to keep the air filtered to help with my husband's allergies. I don't think air circulation is the problem.

Nope, they don't sit in water...learned that lesson the hard way long ago... LOL

I think I'm beginning to overanalyze this... LOL

Only thing that makes me wonder about whether it's really the cold is how sensitive to cold Episcias are supposed to be. None of my Episcias suffered the tiniest bit. Seems if they have to have that much warmth and humidity, the Episcias would have suffered as much as the AVs.

Perhaps I should just let this go... ;o)

remember I know nothing.....just thinking....my episcias love humidty, but they don't seem to care that much about warmth???? I think you are on the right track with the Av's living in too cold of a condition...I certainly dont think you have overanalyzed!!!!
I am hoping that soon Snowrose or Critter will come along and offer advice.....they save my behind all the time!!!

They've saved me more than once, as well. ;o)
Thing is, I've been growing these things long enough that I should have all this figured out! Sure do wish AVs were as easy for me to grow as my Streps and Philos! LOL

Hi There;
You might want to try ultra growth which does so much for the roots & all parts of the plants. I surely would not throw them away without trying it first. i know my plants are the best they have ever been useing this product.i paid 20.00 which including shipping to try it & i really love it.i know the larger bottlels are much more expensive.if there was a way i could you send you some i would, but the bottle is small. but you use very little when you foliar feed.give it a try, someone else on this grop uses it also & swears by it.
mrsbonnie

I have heard that mrsbonnie.....but someone gave me a small bottle of Eleanor's VF11 and I ordered a case.....my Avs and other plants are in heaven....I am sure that there are many good fertilizers.....what I love about Eleanor's food is that I tend to overfertilize and you just don't with this stuff.......yours may very well do the same thing....(I only have about 7 kinds of AV fertilizer...won't be needing any for years (LOL)

Raingazer,
Your plants seem symptomatic of a fungal infection. It can affect plant centers and roots.


Crown Rot (fungi - Pythium spp., Phytophthora spp., Fusarium spp.): Crown rot is probably the most serious disease of African violets and may cause loss of entire groups of plants. Older leaves droop and younger leaves showing stunting. Roots are killed rapidly and appear brown. Unless treatment is administered before massive root death, the plant will have to grow an entirely new root system before recovery occurs. Two alternatives are available for infected plants: One is to discard all affected and exposed plants and the other is to use fungicide drenches. Drenches should be administered when the first evidence of disease occurs. Caution should be used in getting the right dosage levels since excessive levels of some chemicals may damage plants. Preventive measures include using sterilized soil and avoiding plant introductions that may harbor crown rot organisms.

mrsbonnie, thank you. I'll check out the ultra growth. I don't think I've heard of it before.

gail, I used Eleanor's at one time and I really couldn't tell any difference in that and fish emulsion. (ducking, cause I'm sure someone is throwing something at me! LOL) I might give it a try again, though. Couldn't hurt...

Snowrose, is crown rot something I would have caused or something they "caught" from something else? I'll go do some reading about it and see what I can find out. Any particular fungicide you'd recommend? Because of my children and my dogs (though neither even glance at my plants), I don't want to use anything super potent or dangerous. I'd rather throw them all away and start all over than expose my children to something potentially hazardous.

Raingazer, I am sorry. I am not sure either, but it does resemble the pix of crown rot I have seen. Pam

RainGazer, you ask your children to stay out of the room they are isolated in and get after it.....any of those she mentioned will do the trick......my children grew up with me using mighty potent chemicals......put locks on the doors....at least that is what i would try before I throw them away (particularly if they are named ones...if they are noids like many of mine, I would chunk them without a thought)....but, if you keep them, you might get on the treatment by tomorrow..... yes, a fungus can be very contagious...
**Snowrose know her "stuff"....trust us....

Whatever it is, it sure is ugly, isn't it, Pam? I'm going to read up on crown rot and see what I can do.

It sure is good to see you again! It's been too long! :o)

Hi;
I also have used eleanors vf11, sorry to say i did not see any difference either.I am not trying to push ultra growth but i seen a difference right away. after the second spraying.thats just my opinion. hope you can find out what is wrong.
mrsbonnie

Hi,,

I am fairly new to the AV's but one thing I have noticed with mine here at work is that when the temperature here was around 75 constantly they were doing great. Then almost overnight I noticed two plants that looked bad. I have 5, so why two didn't thrive and 3 did??? I guess they are like people and all have a little different tolerance to conditions.
After much pondering, I realized that the room and the water temp were probably too cold. (It was winter) So I cut out the sorry looking leaves, (the poor plant looked naked,) and I raised the temperature in my office. Now they have come back well and are flowering.

Good luck! When you figure it out, please post what you learned.

acckkkk. Sorry to hear you had to deal with this and sorry I didn't see this sooner. (not that I can help, but...)

I agree with Snowrose although I've never dealt with this on AVs but the same things affect orchids too. With the orchids, the damage is brown slick (almost wet-looking) plant material - cut into the plant and drop hydrogen peroxide on it and it will fizz like mad. I wonder if the same is true of AVs...? Spreads easily via water so plants with the same reservoir/bottom watering tray will catch it, as will anything that gets splashed with infected water. Like damping off, although there are cultural tricks to help avoid it, it can just come from the "air". (and I'm still talking about orchids)

but this means you've got lots of space now... ?

That's alright, Ki. I knew why you weren't around. ;o) Sure is a mess, isn't it?

Well, I haven't had time to get to Lowe's to see what they offer, and I didn't see anything at Walmart that I thought would do the trick. What am I looking for exactly? Any particular name or name brand I should search out?

I had good luck with a Bayer Advanced product once, so I checked out their website and found the 3-in-1 Insect, Disease, and Mite control. It says it cures and prevents fungal diseases. Here's the info page about it: http://www.bayeradvanced.com/product/3-in-1-Insect-Disease-and-Mite-Control/concentrate.html Active ingredients are: 0.47% Imidacloprid, 0.61% Tau-Fluvalinate, 0.65% Tebuconazole. Would that work or should I look for something different? I know we'll be at Lowe's tomorrow (that blasted kitchen of ours is taking FOREVER!!) I always have Safer Soap and Neem Oil on hand. Would either of those have any effect on it? Guess I should have asked that days ago, but didn't even think of it...

Lots of space, Ki? Let's just say, I went from begging for another plant stand to this. :o(

Off the top of my head, it's unlikely you'll find something locally because most formulations are for commercial use. I think physan 20 is supposed to work on it but I'd need to check. If you get a chance, try some peroxide on the soil and on a wound and see if it fizzes. (this is home remedy for orchids)

Oh, well, I didn't realize peroxide could be a cure, I thought you meant that was more of a diagnostic test. I have several bottles of peroxide, so that would be a super easy fix. Just pour it on there, in the crown and all?

Well first try it on one to see if it fizzes something serious, like on a human wound - if it does, then it might work as treatment. I usually pour a little into a plastic cup and drop a leaf (or a piece of leaf with mid-vein) in it. To check roots, either I stick the root ball in it or dig a small hole in the pot and our peroxide into it.

Remember to wash hands after and don't let the "dirty" water get to other plants.

Even if you get fizz and it looks like hydrogen peroxide might work as treatment, it would only work on ones that are not too far gone....

OK I'll go try it. Can't hurt... Be back in a few with results. Thanks Ki!

Here's the victim, pre-treatment: Electric Cowboy

I pinched a speck off that bald spot there to make a fresher wound. (Was I supposed to do that??) It definitely fizzed, and sounded like Rice Krispies. I didn't notice fizzing on the soil itself, but maybe I just couldn't see it. Should I just pour some peroxide on them all and then wait to see if they improve?