Sad to report that I may have lost my third plumeria tonight. I already lost two this winter, and this was the last *new* one I brought home from HI last summer. I just cannot for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong. I lost one back at our apartment before our move this January, and now two since we moved into our new home. I may have saved this one by catching the mushiness early enough - I cut the top off and stuck it back in the dirt. Maybe someone can tell me which of the following is wrong.
-I keep the room they are in fairly climate controlled. I actually have a dedicated plant room. Temperature stays between 70-80F most of the time, maybe dips into the 60's on a rare occasion. Humidity stays pretty high... never dips below 50% and usually is in the 60% range. I have kept the plumeria on the dry side through the winter. Only when I noticed new leaf tips did I increase the water. I also have kept small rocks in the bottom of the pot to help with drainage. The soil is usually moist down in the pot, but not wet or soggy in any way. I have learned NOT to overwater these guys. I also keep the plumeria on a warm (made for plants) heating pad. It sits in a northeast window, so it gets good early morning and noon sun. I use plant lights during the evening hours on the whole room, so light shouldn't have been an issue. I also have NOT fertilized it since last Summer, bc I wanted to make sure it had a full set of leaves again first.
Can anyone help me figure out what I'm doing wrong? Providing I can save this one, I'll have three remaining. But this was my last new one from the Big Island, and I'd hate to loose it. It actually bloomed as soon as I potted it last time. I was hoping to see it bloom again this year, and had high hopes until tonight when I noticed the mushiness near the dirt.
Help!
-John
Plumeria = My thumb turns black
I am a newbie also but from the numbers I have managed to turn to mush... water is not your friend. If you feel it needs water.. just mist it until it has several full leaves then begin watering. Only if the cutting begins to look dessicated and shriveled do I give it a little water. Otherwise, everything else sounds right to me. Heat and sun are your best friends. The temps you mention seem to be the low end of what they prefer also.
Just my opinion... I have managed to root about 12 cuttings this past winter... and rotted just about the same amount.. the difference was I learned not to water!
Tammie
Thanks Tammie. I feel water is probably the culprit, even though it wasn't much. I pulled up the stem and the roots looked fine last night, but I sensed water was my issue.
I'll make sure to mist from now on. Hopefully this one will re-root in the pot. I've saved one before by catching it in time, so I'm hopeful. Perhaps I should turn the plant/heat light onto it 24/7 to provide heat? Usually I cut them off at night, but in this case, I'd like to try and save the cutting.
Hi John, you say you brought these cuttings back from Hawaii last summer. Did you root them right away when you brought them back? Cuttings take about 90 days to root. Did you have these outside rooting before you brought them in? Ideal soil temperature for rooting is 80 degrees or higher. Sitting on a heating pad with supplemental light should have helped them to root or at least not rot. Sometimes, the cuttings will just sit there during the winter or rooting will be very slow until growth mode begins in the springtime, but the supplemental heating pad and light should have encouraged your cuttings to root. When cuttings are on a heating pad 24/7, watering regularly is necessary, when the soil looks dry, because the heating pad can dry out the potting soil very quickly. The high humidity in your room would have helped to keep the cuttings from becoming desiccated while on the heating pad. Winter is the most difficult time to root cuttings so don't beat yourself up for losing cuttings. I lost a few myself this winter. I try not to root cuttings in winter if I can help it.
In your second post you said that you saw that the roots looked fine -- so is this a rooted plumeria rotting from the top down? I'm confused. Is this a rooted plumeria that has stem rot or a cutting that is rotting at the bottom? You shouldn't need to mist given your humidity.
Are you turning the heating pad off at night? Temps can drop quickly at night. If your soil temp went from 80 to 60 every night, then that could be your problem right there. 24/7 heating pad and light might help to save your cutting.
Edited to fix spelling.
This message was edited Mar 20, 2007 2:05 PM
I would also remove the rocks at the bottom of the pot. You want the heat mat to heat the soil near the bottom of your cutting. The rocks might be interfering with the transfer of heat. Here is a link to my article if you are interested: http://davesgarden.com/articles/view/45/
Good point about the rocks.
Yes last summer I planted them outdoors in our summer heat/humidity and they grew roots. In fact, this one actually bloomed. The other two also tried, but just didn't have enough energy. All three have had roots though. I know better than to try and root these guys in the winter (well, except for the one I now have to root in the winter).
When the first two died (got mushy stems) last November/December I dumped the pots and the roots looked fine. When I felt the mushy stem on this third one (near the soil), I also pulled it up and its roots were fine. I cut the roots and mushy stem off (the mushy stem was directly above the roots). I have about 6-7" left on the green stem that I put back in the pot. It didn't milk much when I cut it, so that concerned me, but I'm hoping it'll root.
I've put a heat lamp on the plant 24/7 now, and I'll leave the heating pad on 24/7 as well.
Not only might the rocks interfere with heat transfer to the root zone, they don't help with drainage. This is a myth. Rocks in the bottom of the pot only serve to increase the height of the water table in the growing medium and decrease the aerated portion on the medium available to growing roots.
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/527353/
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2007-February/027412.html
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ornamentals/floriculture/aeration.pdf
OK, that's an eye opener then. Problem is, I can't repot all the plants I have with rocks in the bottom. Some are huge, especially the Ti's and Monsteras. But monstera's like water, so maybe they are fine.
I'd never even heard of the wick method, but it does sound interesting. Should I try that with some of the plants I have that are more sensitive to over watering OR to those that have rocks in the bottom? Since Ti's send down a tap root, now I'm worried they'll send that root right into the higher PWT.
Thanks for adding that, stressbaby. I didn't know that, but it makes sense to me.
John, it is weird that the roots weren't rotted right along with the stem. Stem rot is from too much water during periods of cold or dormancy. It doesn't really happen in warm weather due to aspiration. You may have to invest in a few more large heating pads for winter use. It is not easy keeping tropicals going through the winter so don't be too hard on yourself and don't give up!
OK, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the roots not being rotted was weird. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but I also suspect water... or maybe it's just my luck with plumeria. I definitely am fine with most tropicals - I have the room to prove it, LOL. Though I'm probably pushing my luck by experimenting with Heliconias this time of year.
This is somewhat off topic, and I apologize for that. I have experimented a little bit with wicks. The effect is dramatic with small-particle (peat-based) potting soils. The effect is minimal with larger particle (CHC, grit, perlite, bark based) potting soils. For the wick to work, you'll need to get it up through the rocks and into the main potting mix. I use thin strips of old towels, but many different materials will work for a wick.
Another approach to getting rid of the perched water table in this situation would be to put a wick through the rocks, into the growing media, and leave 3-4 inches hanging out of the pot. Then just set the pot onto soil and the wick will draw the PWT out into the soil...the soil will act as an extension of the wick.
Hope that helps. SB
I'm going to try the wick on my largest monstera plant sometime next week. It's in a huge 20" square pot with only a single drain hole. The plant loves water, but I've noticed drainage is an issue. I use a mix of perlite, vermiculite, peat moss, and tropical potting mix when I do plant most of my tropicals, so hopefully that'll make up in aeration for my mistake of putting rocks at the bottom of the pots.
The wick idea makes sense the more I think about it. I'll be interested to see how it works for these plants.
I had the same thing happen with some adeniums last spring. They had perfect white firm roots and perfectly healthy tops and rotten bellies. Adeniums are related to plumerias and also hold water in their stems. The only thing that you can do is what you are doing: try and root the top. Using bottom heat and overhead light, you should be successful.
Thanks Clare. I'll let you all know how things come out. I told my wife, if this one dies, I'm just going to bring home 20-30 cuttings this fall when we're back in HI, LOL. I figure they can't ALL die on me.
Hopefully we'll have some success with them in the future, I've been trying for about 3 years now - only had one ever bloom for me, and it was this one that's struggling now.
It might be the time of year that is working against you if you are bring them back in the fall to root in the fall and winter. If you could root them during the spring, they would be well-established by the time cold weather in the fall comes around. Spring and summer are the best time to root cuttings due to the heat and active growth. You also might consider buying rooted or grafted cuttings from Florida Colors this spring. The grafted ones in particular can seemingly survive tough conditions better than rooted ones. Some people in colder areas swear by grafted plumerias and will only buy grafted ones. Here's a link: http://www.floridacolors.com/ My grafted plumerias from Florida Colors are thriving.
Good point... I might just go ahead and order several for this coming summer. I did get these (that have died off) last Spring and had them growing all summer. I will just have to be a lot more careful with water/heat in the future. I think as long as they keep their leaves they'll be OK. I have always thought I had to hibernate them, so I was probably shooting myself in the foot right there.
Oh, you are so right there. I've heard many reports that it is so much harder to keep dormant plants alive during the winter than it is to keep ones that have not gone dormant. Some even swear by supplemental metal halide lights 24/7 and never letting the temp dip below 50. One guy in Kansas City keeps his collection in his garage and doesn't let the garage get below 60, has lights on 24/7, and waters with warm water. If you do have ones that drop their leaves, then they are going dormant, and it is best to water them very infrequently if at all.
It sounds like your rooted ones just were sitting in water-logged soil due to those pebbles, and that made the stems absorb too much water and rot. You would have thought that the roots would rot first, but they didn't.
Anyhow, if you buy grafted ones from Florida Colors, he uses seedling stock to graft to, and seedlings have tap roots and very strong root systems, and I think you will find them easier to care for during the winter. I bought ten grafted plumerias from Luc last year just because it is only a few dollars more to buy them grafted, and that meant I didn't have to fuss with rooting them, which I like. You can always take cuttings later and root them if you don't like the grafted look, but I don't mind it.
I can't say I'm familiar with the "grafted" look. Can you explain please?
I didn't even think about buying them from Florida - that'll make it a lot easier on them shipping wise. Usually I order them from HI and that's a long way for a fragile plumeria cutting.
Here is Florida Colors web site: http://www.floridacolors.com/ They are a wonderful business.
Here is their 2007 Price Sheet: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/690602/
Here are some threads on grafting with pictures:
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/545362/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/606901/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/687551/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/634751/
One spring a few years back, we had May Gray followed by June Gloom, and it was damp and cold, and all my cuttings were outside and rotting. This was before I knew about bottom heat and heating mats. I ended up shipping about 30 cuttings to Luc at Florida Colors to graft for me. Back then, he charged $3 per graft plus actual return shipping. Most were healthy enough to take, but some rotted and would not take. Some grafts are prettier than others, but I don't care what they look like as long as they are firmly attached. I now do my own grafting, and I almost prefer it to rooting.
Thanks for the links.
So much for my cutting so far. I just noticed the bottom half of this one had rotted too. That's despite keeping it on the heat pat and under a heatlamp 24/7 and it's been very warm here lately... plant room has been ideal for growing.
I took the last bit of the tip, maybe 3-4" and have now put it back in the soil. It milked a good bit, so I'm praying it'll make it. But it probably won't. *sigh*
I'd try the grafting method, but I only have two other good plumeria at my folks house, which I plan to pick up in a few weeks. And both of those I'm hoping will bloom this summer, so I don't want to chop their tops off this time of year.
John, with that small of a cutting, the only thing to do now to save it is to graft it if you can. Rooting a cutting that small is very difficult to do. Are you letting the cuttings callous over at the bottom for a week or so after you cut them? Allowing the ends to dry and callous will help to ward off rot. Most people make a cut, dip in Roottone or a rooting hormone with a fungicide, then set in a cool dry area to let the end heal and callous before planting in soil. You might want to try a new method like water-rooting once the end has calloused. I think you are going to have to consider this one a loss too. Sorry, buddy.
I have succesfully rooted numerous small pieces that I thought a total loss (broke off accidentally or during storage found on the floor of garage etc.) I just let them sit during the winter and then insert into soil in spring (only and inch or so into soil). I think the temperature is crucial though. I never bring my plumerias out of hybernation till the temp has been above 70 for a week or two. I usually see growth when the temp hits 75-80 for a week or so. Luckily I live in Houston and have almost no problem raising plumerias. I have 5 over 5 feet tall and have only bought 1 plant in the last 10 years. Mostly I just trade with friends and plumeria society aquaintances. I really feel sorry for you losing so many precious plants; but I think that you should consider letting your plants hybernate during the winter and just do not water at all unless you see the stalk shrinking more than half. I uproot my plants and just set them without dirt in the garage and don't water at all all winter. My (attached) garage is cold but it doesn't get too cold in Houston, so I don't heat the garage; so humidity is ok even in the winter (we have wet winters). I think that my 20 years of growing experience doesn't help you much because our climates are so different. For example, I put my plants in the garden this last weekend and expect growth to begin soon. My neighbors never even took their plants in. Try joining the local chapter of Plumeria society and gain whatever knowledge is available from other growers in your area. Best forum is Plumeria Assoc of America. PS I have found that the Florida plants are much more hardy to changes in moisture and cold than the cuttings I have brought back from Oahu. *Pic is a variety obtained from a Houston grower I won at a Plumeria society meeting and is now a registered var. Tahitian Sunset. I have had it for 7 yrs and it has gone from 6 inches to 7 feet.
Well I took the cutting back out of the soil and am letting the end dry on its own. Hopefully once it's dry I can get it to root in soil. So far, so good.
I brought my other two home this weekend. I'd had them hibernating at my folks house, but now I've got them outside in the ground at our home. It's been very warm lately, in the 80's, so I feel certain I'll see growth on them soon. They've successfully come out of hibernation twice now, so I'm really hoping this is the year they bloom. I almost lost one of them last year, but saved it luckily. It was a different mistake last year. I didn't water them, but accidentally left them on a cold floor. So I'm living and learning as they say, LOL.
I'm also going to invest in some grafted plumerias from the site noted above. Thanks again for that link. How do they ship them? Bare root or potted?
srbowers66, just re-read your post. You know, maybe that's my problem. All but one of my cuttings have been from Hawaii. And I've had problems with ALL of them. Even the one I just brought home, as noted, had a problem last year. I have one I received from a lady here in SC, and I've never had any issues with it (besides it not blooming). Makes me wonder if the HI variety are just ultra-sensitive.
This message was edited Mar 27, 2007 1:45 PM
Hi Srbowers! Welcome to the Plumeria Forum! We think Dave's Garden Plumeria Forum is the best forum, but the PSA is great for sure! Your plumeria pictured is not 'Tahitian Sunset.' It may be 'Gulliot's Sunset,' but it is hard to say from a picture. Here is a picture of 'Tahitian Sunset' below.
John, I hope your last frost date has passed. I would hate for you to have some unexpected cold while your plumies are in the ground. A cold wet situation would be very bad. It is a tad early for most people to put them out, but you know your area best so it is a personal choice. Florida Colors ships grafted plants in moist Sphagnum Peat Moss. The plants should be potted into one-gallon containers of potting soil upon arrival and watered well. I don't think that plants have difficulty adjusting from one environment to another if the basic needs are met. I've received cuttings from all over the world and rooted them successfully. It really comes down to the proper soil temperature and conditions of heat and humidity to get them to root successfully provided you start with a healthy cutting.
I've kept an eye on the forecast 10-days out. Looks like all 70's and 80's. If I need to, I can just yank them up... they are in the ground in their pots. I feel pretty sure our last cold weather is over now. Summer has roared in like a lion... we seemingly skipped Spring this year.
In the meantime, I've given my heating pads attention to the Heliconia rhizomes I'm trying to root.
Edit: Then again, I just noticed Friday dipping to 45 that night. High's near 70 that day. Hrm... that too cold or should they be fine? They are right up against the house and it'll warm back up the next morning and into next week.
This message was edited Mar 27, 2007 3:32 PM
I would keep an eye on the predictions of your coldest temps and not subject them to below 40 if you can. We too are having lovely warm days, but the nights are still cold, and we could very well have another month or two of cold nights here where I am in Zone 10b. Most of mine are outside all year, but the ones in the greenhouses won't come out until May or June. You have to decide based on your climate as only you know it, but I would be cautious as an unexpected freeze could ruin your whole day.
Thanks for you invaluable input; I just wanted to let you know that Merrill O’Neil gave me the cutting rooted from the same seedling batch that was eventually named. I don't recall exactly when but I do know what I was told by him at that time. He was debating whether to name it after his granddaughter I think; but went with a more marketable name. Here is the official picture from Merril for promotion of the variety. I think it looks almost identicle to my plant. Of course my flowers can vary year to year based on temp, rain fall etc. So every year it's slightly different looking but; this the same as my plant.
Sharon, the picture you just posted is indeed 'Tahitian Sunset,' but it is a totally different flower than the one in the picture you posted earlier. It is different in remarkable ways so this isn't a matter of climate or seasonal differences. Look at the shape and cupping of the two flowers, the coIors in the center, the petal shape, etc. I don't like to put names to pictures, but your first picture is very similar to 'Guillot's Sunset.' Take a look for yourself here: http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/101498/index.html and compare your picture to the other pictures. My 'Tahitian Sunset' looks like the O'Neill picture that you just posted, especially as colors start to fade. I got mine from Florida Colors, and they are using the same O'Neill picture: http://www.floridacolors.com/Tahitian%20Sunset.htm Maybe it is just your picture that is misnamed? Please feel free to get another opinion of someone at the PSA if you feel that I am wrong, but I think your first pic is classic 'Guillot's Sunset.'
Edited to fix spelling.
This message was edited Mar 28, 2007 11:58 AM
John don't worry follow Clare advice...
If you send me your info in my dmail i will send you a gift..
;)
Keep going!!!
Clare, in a perfect example of "you told ME so..."
It's getting down to 27 here this weekend on Saturday. Sure enough I had to pull the plumies up from the ground and bring them back in. It's almost hard to believe it was nearly 90 here last week.
Talk about some funky weather.
YIKES, after leaving my plummies out all winter in the mild weather I have had to bring them in several times in the last month or two. Now it looks like we will get into the 30's so back into the garage they will go tonight. High 80's this week to almost freezing; funky? YES!
Poor plants will be so mixed up, they don't know whether to grow or not. I recently asked a grower why there are no Easter lilies this year and he told me it is because they all grew and bloomed (in his greenhouse) in February this year. Weird weather.
Mine have to go in today too. Temp right now is 47... just saw the low got to 44. My plants are up against a brick wall and under a walkway so they were rather protected. Supposed to get colder for the next two night... into the atrium they go. I am going to turn a heater on in there to get it up to around 90... that should keep them happy for a couple of days.
Darn this weather... it has everyone all over the country doing 'busy work'
Tammie
Awe, John, darn. I would never say "I told you so" though! LOL! I reserve the right to be wrong all the time and sometimes am;-)
Sorry about all the cold weather, folks. You guys are not alone in taking them out early. Most growers are anxious to get them out of the greenhouse and out of the garage, but mother nature sometimes has other ideas. We've had some warm bouts too, but May Gray and June Gloom are often cold and damp here so I'll probably keep my greenhouses up for a few more months yet.
I havent taken time to read every post but I encourage you to add a fan for air movement.
There is a disease that looks like black tip but isnt
It is a pathogen spread by red spotted mites.
Their habitation can be controlled by adding good air movement.
I keep a fan on medium speed on y plumies for 7 months a year as thats how long they are inside. I avoided 'winter rot' this year and believe the fan made all the difference.
I think a fan in my plant room would be a good idea in general. I've been meaning to add one in there, but I will for sure now.
Soon as we warm back up, I'm going to order some plumeria from Florida. I did end up loosing that last tip cutting :(
But at least I still have the two I've had for about 3 years now - hoping they might bloom this year. Unfortunately this cold streak hasn't helped bc I had to pull them in.
Good obs, Mike. A fan is a great idea in any plant room or greenhouse over the winter.
Sorry about that tip, John. I'm glad you've got at least your two. Once your last frost date has passed, you can put them outside again and start fertilizing, provided they have leaves.
Thanks Clare. They had just started new leaf tips when I brought them in. So hopefully they'll keep right on growing out when I put them back out. Next winter I'll just bring them in and make sure they don't drop those leaves ;)
John, are you interested in one of Gordon Hawk's Panama Plummie seedlings? I would be happy to share one of mine; they are well rooted, almost a year old and are supposed to have large white flowers. Let me know if you are interested. I could meet you somewhere the next time I go to Columbia with Phil. alice
Definitely, thank you :)
I've tried to find a photo of that variety, but can't seem to locate one. To be honest, I have been amazed how many types of plumeria there are. If I can just get one to bloom, I'll be happy - no matter what type.
keonikale... I second that!
Tammie