Ipomoea Alba seed ?

Moonflower: are they all white? Or are some black?

i dont know about black but i have lavender ones Paul

Ipomoea alba seeds are most usually a light beige,but there is a strain that produces black seeds...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/120337/
The leaf form shown here has been previously known as Ipomoea alba forma apopetalum...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/120341/

It seems that the 'Meekerii' appelation is questionable unless he lives in Florida...

I gave some black seeds out a few years ago that originated from a source in Florida,but the people I sent them to were reluctant to believe that there was really a black seeded strain and thought the seeds were just 'over-ripe'...consequently the seeds and plants distributed weren't given much attention or care...

statistics are showing that plants with new phoney names that you must pay for get better attention than truthful descriptions of seeds and plants available without monetary charge...(!?!)


TTY,...

Ron

My Ipomoea alba plant this last year produced mainly the "white" seeds, but in several cases, one of the seeds in a pod would be reddish brown. I've got a picture somewhere at home that I'll try and locate this weekend. I bet I have about a dozen dark seeds.

I had one secondary branching vine of the main plant that had leaves like the apopetalum Ron referenced. The rest of the plant was cordate leaved. Interestingly, none of the flowers on this branch set seed pods....

I don't understand how genetically seeds in the same pod could be visually "identical" in all facets except color. I don't know what external causative conditions could be different for a single seed in an undamaged, normal looking pod. They all look very viable, but I have not attempted germination. I'm not sure I am going to have room for these this year.

- Arlan

Arlan - the darker brown seeds that are produced by the normally beige seeded form aren't the same as the strain that always produces dark brown to black seeds...

A combination of temperature and humidity can cause the seeds to incur a different color >but usually after they are removed from the seedpod and are drying...

The double pollination that occurs could possibly contribute to the seedcoat of seeds within the same pod being a different color...

TTY,...

Ron

Ron,

That is the point that I don't understand. Does the genotype of the newly pollinated embryo control the development of the seed or is it the genotype of the parent plant that is growing the flower and pod? From your statement, I sounds like it may be the new embryo? For some reason I was thinking the latter...

I can share this though. Last year I planted 4 seeds of Q0777, which is basically a Cameo Elegance type plant. They were all the small seeds typical of this complex. One plant was definitely a hybrid, as it grew to be a normally sized plant with normally sized variegated leaves and blizzard flowers. It's seeds were more normal sized. When these seeds get planted, I get the distribution of normal sized plants and the smaller hime plants. So in this case, I got normal sized plant from a small seed (presumably from a small parent) and I can get small sized plants from normal sized seeds..... This might suggest that some seed characteristics are controlled by the parent plant and not the embryo contained in the seed...? Does that make sense? Does my I. alba seed experience contradict this??!!

Arlan

Hey Ronnie did you go to the Philadelphia Flower Show?

luvsgrtdanes - apologies offered for hijacking your(!) thread...although I did try to answer your original question...


Arlan - I'm going to venture that you're overlooking an important feature of the double pollination...

One pollen grain delivers 2 sperm cells...one sperm cell fertilizes and contributes to the inner embryo and the other sperm cell fertilizes and combines with the material that will form the outer seedcoat...

Keeping in mind what I have just reminded about above ..take another look at the gene list that I linked to at Dr.Yonedas site about genes contributing to seed color...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3262581

The seed size and seedcoat can be influenced by environmental factors that affect the gestational plant,but these are probably more accurately described as external environmental factors or perhaps metabolic rather than strictly intrinsically genetic...although genetic factors could play a role in how the gestational plant responds to any environment...

Are we getting closer to the 'zone' >Yes...No...Maybe...(?!)...

TTY,...

Ron


This message was edited Mar 8, 2007 11:10 PM

Ron and Arlan,

Here is photo of my I. alba seeds from last year on left. Same Vines.
White, Tan & Reddish-Brown color.
And
I. meekerii seeds on Right. Color is a Deep Dark Brown, Almost Black.

Emma

Thanks Ron! I enjoy peeling back the onion of understanding with you! You are correct...I was not aware of the true meaning of double pollination....I thought it referred to separate pollination for each individual seed!! I did not relaize that a pollen grain delivered 2 sperm cells...now that makes sense....because, yes I have seen the various genes for different seedcoat colors, but didn't realize that the seed coat received genetic material separate from the contained embryo.

So if the red brown seed coat happens to be genetic, my I. alba plant could have been, or probably was heterozygous for that red brown seed coat gene...and planting one of these red brown seed is no quarantee that the resulting plant will produce any, let alone all, red brown seeds. Interesting!...even though half of them were not brown....

My over simplification got me again! Thanks - Arlan

Emma, your white, tan and reddish brown color accurately reflect the color variation I saw....though the distribution was significantly different. Most of mine were white with only a few darker reddish-brown and a very few lighter brown...

Arlan

No Paul not yet, maybe Sunday but it's supposed to warm up around here so I may get outside!!☺

Ron no apologies needed, you did answer my question, thanks. I just try to keep up with all you scientists!! Comprehend about every other word ! LOL☺ But is sure gets interesting...

Ronnie did you mean the coulr of the seed or the flower?

The flower...

Ronnie i have Lavender ones when i send your seeds ill send you a few of those to

Thanks Paul!!

I came across this being sold here titled 'Red Moon Flower' I asked the seller what color are the seeds, classification and is waiting for the reply. I've never grew any moon flowers but my wife say they smell like perfume.

MGJapan - The "Red Moonflower" you posted is Ipomoea turbinata as entered in the PlantFiles here
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/30403/
it is still referred to by it's synonym 'Ipomoea muricata' by some suppliers...the seeds are a brown color,but the lavender moonvine typically lacks the fragrance of the closely related Ipomoea alba...

If you have Ipomoea turbinata that is fragrant >that would be interesting...

TTY,...

Ron

No I was referring to the regular white moon flower as being fragrant not the one that I posted.

I sorted my Ipomoea alba seeds, and they all fall into basically four colors. There really is not a gradation between colors which indicates to me that they may each have a quite simple genetic make up. All of these seeds came from one plant, the seed that I planted I believe was one of the in between colors, probably the lighter one. I think the dark seed looks a lot like the "meekerii" seed mentioned and shown by EmmaGrace above.

I didn't count the seed, and I've traded and sent a bunch out of white seed previously, but I definitely have significantly more white seed than any other color and fewest of the black seed.

Arlan

Thanks Arlan, that is really interesting!! I have the white ones that came from you!

Arlan - now see if the black seeds that you have consistently produce all black seeds like this strain here
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/120337/

I think they are different because the all dark seeded strain produces dark hiliums...

TTY,...

Ron

Arlan, I would like to get back to the double pollination. A pollen grain lands on the pistil, then it germinates like a seed, then it begins its decent down the pistil, then it divides midway, then there are two when they arrive at the ovary. One for the embryo, and one for the seed coat.

Speaking of seed coats, I just planted my moon vine seeds today. They didn't soak up water as fast as the small seeds, but they have a seed coat like a coconut. My moonvine seeds, after a 12 hour soak, looked like baby turtles, because the pressure from swelling was shattering the seed coat. I saw this phenomena with three perrenial species with very thick seed coats. I think I will use this as a guide in the future. I toyed with the idea of keeping the soak heated to 100 degrees with a fish tank heater, but decided not this time.

It really got quiet around here this week. I think everyone is busy planting seeds and the kids are probably home for spring break. Things ought to get to popping again in the next few weeks. I planted 10 species myself today, hoot hoot. Frank

Ron, thanks for pointing out the difference in the hiliums... yes, I guess I need to add this to the plan for this year! I'm rapidly running out of room!

Frank, when Ron pointed out the double fertilization to me, it was new information for me. I was a Zoology major at OSU and have no botanical training other than my own subsequent reading... although my interests over the years have always centered around plants. This I. alba seed color thing was just fascinating and interesting.

I've had the fractured seed coat look before also. I think last year, before I knew about soaking seed in H2O2, or nicking the seed, I had several I.alba seed in moist towels in a ziplock bag that never did hydrate...they are tough!

Arlan

A couple of years ago I used the dogs nail clipper to nick these thick moonvine seeds. They are tough, one gentleman told me he uses a dremmel tool to make a small slit on each seed before he trades it.

Although I do get them to germinate, I've yet gotten one to bloom. Maybe I'll try here at this location.
A.

Gourd my moonflowers dont bloom until about August here then they bloom away. i think its the onset of cold that get them going here.

Thanks Marie,
I should have already sowed them then.. I'll add that one to my batch for tomorrow. Marie do yours like full sun? We have a long chainlink fence that I'd like to try it on, but it only has full sun facing an alfalfa field.

A.