Quercus macrocarpa and others

Quercus alba (WHITE OAK)
Quercus imbricaria (JACK OAK)
Quercus macrocarpa (BURR OAK)
Quercus rubra (NORTHERN RED OAK)
Quercus velutina (BLACK OAK)

The above are oaks that are native to my county. My dad would like to add some oaks to his timber. Previously it was used as a lumber farm, so it was clear cut when they purchased it. It's now full of trees and woodies (some invasive species), but no oaks on his acreage. We've been trying to clean out the invasive species for 2 seasons and to just clear out and make room for the trees to grow up and out. There are oaks in the timber beside his (that wasn't clear cut). I have sent him the link to natives in our county, but he wanted more info on these oak trees. Also if anyone knows of a source for larger quantities of seedlings.

Thanks much,

Terry

Spandle Nurseries has many of these as seedlings. They used to give a lot of price info on-line I think, but now they just have an apparently-outdated list. I have had good service from them, though that was some years in the past. See http://www.spandles.com/spandleshome/spandlestrees.html for that possibly-outdated list and contact information. Have a look.

Mark., they used to have a wider selection too

Those oaks sound like a wonderful addition ... wish I could think of a place for you to obtain them. At any rate..getting rid of all those invasives will be a good start. Good for you.

http://davesgarden.com/gwd/c/2372/
His list indicates which are indigenous to Wisconsin as opposed to which are indigenous to Illinois because his nursery isn't located in Illinois.

Quercus alba Native White Oak
Wide spreading beautiful Oak in open settings, also tolerant of medium shade. Forming a massive tree with red to purple fall color, copious acorns when older. Zone 3
plugs 2.50

Quercus bicolor Native Swamp White Oak
Natively a flood plain tree will do fine in most upland plantings, growing to the size of Bur Oak. Glossy foliage with yellow tinged orange fall color. Avoid high pH soils. Zone 3.
Plug 2.00 6" 2.50
12-18" 3.50 2-3' 5.00

Quercus ellipsoidalis Native Hill's Oak
Pyramidal tree with great red fall color when young, becoming much more open in age. Tolerates very poor sandy soils. Zone 3.
3-6" 2.00 6-12" 3.00

Quercus imbricaria E USA Shingle Oak
Large Oak with pyramidal shape when young. Tolerates most soils. New leaves reddish becoming deep green. Brick red autumn foliage. Zone 4.
3-6" 2.00 6-12" 3.00

Quercus lyrata E USA Overcup Oak
Large tree casting a light shade allowing sod beneath, unusual acorns nearly enclosed in the cap. Zone 5
plugs 3.00

Quercus macrocarpa Native Bur Oak
Wide spreading tree needing an open sunny site. Leaves with deep green upper and white lower surface. Yellow brown fall color. Bark deeply furrowed in age. Lower limbs become massive. Zone 2
6-12" 2.50 12-18" 4.00

Quercus michauxii SE USA Basket Oak
Large oak of the river floodplains, red fall color and very large acorns. Zone 5
12” 4.00

Quercus muehlenbergii Native Chinkapin Oak
Finer textured than most oaks, light tan bark, rich lustrous green leaves. Zone 3.
3-6" 2.00 plug 3.00

Quercus palustris Native Pin Oak
Fast growing lovely oak for urban settings, not tolerant of alkaline soil. Often with rich red fall color, small acorns. Zone 4
plugs 3.00

Quercus phellos E USA Willow Oak
Large growing wide crowned Oak with leaves very willow like, small acorns ideal for birds. Fall foliage yellow to red. Zone 5/6
plug 3.00

Quercus prinoides E USA Shrub Chinkapin Oak
Shrub Oak in the White Oak group, grows well in the Oak barrens, yellow-brown fall color, 6-8' Zone 4 plug 3.00

Quercus prinus E USA Chestnut Oak
Medium sized coarse branched Oak with large deep green leaves and large acorns. Suffers on high pH soil. Zone 4.
6-12" 2.00 12-18" 3.00

Quercus stellata E USA Post Oak
Medium sized tree from the White Oak group that does well on poor sandy soil. Zone 5-6.
plugs 3.00

Quercus velutina Native Black Oak
The Oak dominating our sand soil counties. A bit slow growing the first few years, then faster. Foliage with a fuzzy underside and yellow fall color. Zone 2.
3-6" 2.00
6-12" 3.00

Oh! Thanks much Equil! I'll print your list off and show him.

gooley, where is Spandle Nurseries located? Their website needs some serious upgrading!

terryr, if you order 25 of any one species, the price is half of what you see listed. This is what is so attractive about their nursery. Their plants are healthy too.

Oh my, that makes it even better! Thanks Equil!

Spandle is nearish Atlanta, Georgia. Maybe a nursery in Wisconsin or Illinois would be a better choice, but compare prices, shipping costs, etc. and see. When I was a boy one could buy trees from an Illinois state nursery, very small ones but at quite low prices; I don't know if that's still possible; the only restrictions I think were that they had to be planted and left where you planted them until you cut them down, and had to be for a practical reason (reforestation, windbreak, etc.) rather than merely ornamental.

Mark.

Thanks gooley. No, these won't be ornamental, they'll be planted into the timber once some more of the invasives have been removed. I'll have to poke around and see if I can find out about an IL State Nursery tree program.

Hello, never realized there were so very many different oaks. Very interesting and thank you for the information.

tsurg, it makes your head spin, doesn't it? I also see that you're a new member, Welcome to DG!!

there may already be a few oaks growing if there are large ones nearby, we found they needed
protection from deer browsing, planting for added diversity is fun , too, to aid nature. jim

Well Resin, by golly my head really is spinning now. Guess I have been in the valley of darkness.

Best part of half of them are from Mexico . . . down there, just about every oak that you look at is different. Trying to identify them is a real nightmare (I gave up on them on my Mexico holiday!). There's also an awful lot in China and southeast Asia (though a lot of these are sometimes split off in a separate genus Cyclobalanopsis). It's the usual story . . . higher biodiversity in subtropical and tropical regions. You're not in the Valley of Darkness, just the Valley of the Temperate Zone :-)

Resin

Thank you I feel much better now. Alot of very knowledgeable people here.

Resin, what's the smallest growing oak that does well in the northeast and how big would it get?

Victor

Tricky - all of the temperate oaks are fairly large trees (20-35m tall). The climate is suitable for trees to grow large, and if they didn't, they'd get shaded out by other trees that did (oaks are generally light-demanding). The small oaks are mostly from Mediterranean-type climates (where they're kept small by drought), species like Quercus coccifera from the western Mediterranean which usually only gets 2-3m tall, and can stay that size because there's nothing else to out-compete it.

Your other option is to grow one of the larger ones, and coppice it from time to time (cut it down, and let it re-grow from stump sprouts). Up to you whether you think this is aesthetically pleasing or not! (lots of people think it doesn't look very nice).

Resin

Thank you. Count me in the group that does not think it's attractive to cut it.

There's a Q. mongolica at the U of Minnesota arb that was planted during the early 1960's and is now around 30'. I haven't seen it in a couple of years, but my memory (what's left of it) is of an attractive smaller-sized Oak. Our native Q. ellipsoidalis that is so prevalent in my neck of the woods would be twice as tall at that age.

Hi Maackia,

I'd say that's unusual, maybe poor growing conditions. The Flora of China lists it as a 30 metre tree:
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200006296

Resin

what about bear oak or dwarf chinkapin oak? As small oaks, these grow at Morton Arboretum
in Lisle, IL. They are shrub- like, less than 6 feet tall.

Shin Oak (Quercus havardii) is another shrubby little Oak you could grow into zone 5. It loves deep dry sandy soil and almost never gets taller than about 6'-8'(rarely to 12'-15' which are most likely introgressed individuals with other Oaks, and mostly it grows 3'-4' tall) or so.

There are quite a few temperate Oaks which only grow as shrubs or small trees. Many of these are adapted to fire along with difficult growing conditions like Resin pointed out earlier. There are several shrub Oaks native to the SE(especially the coastal plain) which are fire adapted(like Runner Oak(Q. pumila), Myrtle Oak (Q. myrtifolia), Chapman's Oak (Q. chapmanii), etc.). There are also several shrub Oaks native from West Texas through the Southern Rocky Mountains and SW USA(and Northern Mexico) which are temperate (many being hardy to zone 6 or 5 even). (Like Shin Oak(Q. havardii), Vasey Oak (Q. vaseyana), Sand Paper Oak (Q. pungens), Mohr's Oak (Q. mohriana), Shrub Live Oak (Q. turbinella), etc.) Some of these Oaks do have ranges which extend into sub-tropical areas, but they are mostly temperate Oaks, with many(most actually) being hardy for me here in zone 6.

Also, it seems to me that Shrub Chinquapin Oak (Q. prinoides) is almost adapted to being somewhat of an under story shrub in dry(usually somewhat sandy soil) forests. I commonly come across it growing under the dominant Post Oak(Q. stellata)-Black Jack Oak (Q. marilandica) forests found in many parts of the Ozarks. It is often seen growing on the forest's edge in other more general Oak-Hickory forests. So, while maybe not for deep shade, it does seem to often grow in medium shade and is about the closest any Oak comes to being an under story plant.

Wondering if one could create a habitat for Gambel oaks? Hardy to zone 3, but prefer a sharper, more generally alkaline soil than is our rule. Note that there is a wide variation on height of this tree. It sure spread in foothills of Colorado. Ken

Minimize your rainfall to around 15" per year (if that), along with the soil adjustment, and increase your altitude a few thousand feet (1.5 km).

Or just move to Salt Lake City.

I wouldn't gambel on that working . . .







(sorry!)

doh! (response to Resin)

Actually Gambel Oak does quite well for me, and I get about 40" of rainfall per year. It's also more adaptable to neutral and even moderately acid soils than you might think. The big thing that gets Gambel Oak in the East is the higher humidities, which causes the leaves to get attacked by a wide variety of unsightly leaf fungus, diseases, bugs, etc. They don't really harm the tree, but they sure can make it look like a mess by late summer. My best one, with the best leaves late into the summer, is planted in full sun on a SW facing slope where the drainage is good and the sun quickly evaporates any lingering dew or moisture from rain. I suspect high night time temperatures might also be involved in the leaf problems, but the humidity seems to be more important. So, if I was to plant one(again), I would plant it in full sun in an area with good air circulation and good drainage.

kandlmidd, you are quite right about the variation in height. Some people have purposed that true Gambel Oak only grows to 3'-6' tall or so and is somewhat rhizomatous like the ones you see in the foothills around Central Colorado, and the other larger tree like ones are the result of past introgression with Bur Oak. There are lots of good examples(in my and other's opinions) of hybrids with Bur Oak in NM and CO. Some of these larger tree like Gambel Oaks also show almost no signs of leaf problems when cultivated in the Eastern USA. I'd think your relatively cooler WI summers and relatively lower humidities (say to the SE) would be very suitable for Gambel Oak, especially if you have an area of full sun with good drainage and air circulation.

My dad wants to get the oak trees currently on the neighbors land ID'd and choose the types that they are. Thanks for the help.