Imperialis

I just bought a pack of seeds marked Ipomoea imperialis, now when I searched the PlantFiles it brought up Ipomoea x imperialis and a variety of Ipomoea nil. Now my question is, is I imperialis the same as I x imperialis? Or is it the same as I nil? I'm sort of confused with this so any help would be great!

Thanks,
Steven

Heres a picture of the seeds

sorry about the shadow

Here's whats shown on the package

Steven,

The photos on your seed packet is Ipomoea purpurea.
If you can post a photo of the seeds, we can better tell if they are in fact, I. purpurea.

Here is information about Ipomoea x imperialis
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/581971/

Emma

Thanks Emma, I'm just going to check out the link.
Here's a photo of the seeds, there's also another on up above.

Steven

Steven - The flowers on the packet you posted here
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/SW_gardener_1172444116_65.jpg
show Ipomoea purpurea blooms and the seeds contained in the packet as shown here
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/SW_gardener_1172444020_940.jpg
basically look like Ipomoea purpurea...

I've always enjoyed looking for the variations that these can produce...

Have Fun(!)...

TTY,...

Ron

Hi Stephen,
I'm not the seed expert with photos.
They look like I. purpurea seeds to me, but a couple look like they could be I. nils.

Maybe Ron or someone else can give you a more positive answer,
However, the photos on your seed packet are definitely I. purpurea blooms.

Emma

Ron and Emma, It looks like you posted at the same time!

Thanks for helping me find out what I have, I can't stand not knowing :)
Are the beige seeds the ones that might be nil's? I'll be sure to plant those ones and see if they turn out differently. I've been really getting into MG's this year!

Thanks again,
Steven

We sure did post at the same time didn't we Steven,
Too much fun!

Thanks Ron, for clearing up the seeds for Steven.

Amazing that this seed packet was Identified as Ipomoea x imperialis.
Must be from Canada.

I will 'guess' that your Light colored seeds will produce a Pink or Lavender Colored Bloom,
at least from the same colored seeds I've grown so far of I. purpurea.

Emma

Steve, You have a very insightful question on the technicalities of names. There are horticultural rules for
naming plants, but there still are many litinized hybrid names out there that antedate the rules. This is one of those cases. In the 19 th century, it was sophistocated to give a hybrid, a latin or latinized names,
because literall y thousands of new plants with latin names were being seen for the first time.

A safe rule, is , to BE WARE of a latin name right next to or after an X. The X truely indicates that this IS NOT a true specie, but a hybrid as red crossed with white. But it is written like this "Red" X "White". Where these notes are written this way the X is an abbreviation for the phrase "Hybrid Cross". The writing of the cross is supposed to also indicate which name was the female and which was the male, but these rules are disregarded totally by the average gardener who doesn't even know the rules, and just lets it fly.
The purpose of using the same sex in the same position, is for the sake of recording genetic information for the future.

These rules pretty much have gone by the wayside, except in the hardcore
groups of hybridizes ,(orchids, roses, ) where plant breeding has been continuous for 150 years.

Horticultural terms like clone, cultivar, cross, seedling all have exact meanings.
For example, using I. childersi, a hybrid, should always be written I. X childersi. This tells you that it is a hybrid, with a LATINIZED name. I you leave the X out of the name, the name says I. childersi is a specie
discovered by a botanist by the name of Childers and so named. Using a latinized name for a hybrid has probably been outlawed in Texas, and should be everywhere else. Canadians grow many of the same things we do and they are not subject to following our rules. This has always been one of my
pet peaves because it because it causes so much confusion that takes forever to clear up. And before anyone asks , I am Childers, and I just used my own name to keep from sticking my foot in my mouth again by using an incorrect name. I am here to learn and share. But then , if you get your foot in you mouth often enough, after a while, it it don't taste that bad. So before you ask about seeds, there are only three Childers seed, and that would be my three hungry children. Although they are adults out on there own they still head for the fridge and the cooky jar when they come over. LOL LOL. They know what groceries cost NOW!
Frank




This message was edited Mar 4, 2007 6:57 PM

GREAT INFO FRANK...

Thanks,
Emma

Thanks, Frank - I found that useful, too. So, which comes first: female or male when indicating a cross?

Frank, Your reply is very informative :) Thank-you
I guess alot of us Canadians don't play by the rules as much as we should :)

Steven

females are always first....!

- Arlan

Blue Spiral, the rules are so archaic these days, the prudent thing to do is to keep a journal of all the crosses that you do and make sure that you put in writing which is which and stay with that as a default. For my purposes I use the mother plant first, because the pollen is the foreigner. The use of the pollen is a one time thing, but I am going to be caring for the mother plant to the end. She is the important plant

Plant societies as a rule, are given naming authority by the International Botanical Congress, and so the rules are dictated down to us from the plant authorities. This is important, because hobyists, as we get more mature and grow in the hobby, need to adopt the default format used by the given plant society for generations. This brings order to the love of plants and it helps shed confusion.

SW gardener, I meant no affense, toward Canadians, especially because you are not subject to US laws and regulations. It is just that the question you asked, gets asked over and over and over.

If there were an "International Convolvulaceae Society", 100 years ago, the confusion we all face would have been settled long ago by elected Lay Leadership, and the membership would have supported them in clearing up the confusion and laying track for the future hobby plant breeders.

This not only did not happen 100 years ago, it still hasn't happened. The confusion of the synonyms still is wrapped around our feet like bindweed. No offence Beth. This confusion is not unique to morning glories, it infects many other plant groups as well.

So then what do we do about it??? We get ready for the next growing season and focus on the native species that we do not have pictures for in the Plant Files. The great thing for us as hobbiests, is that we don't even need to know what specie it is, it just needs to be a morning glory, and all of us are able to make that determination. And even if we take the pictures of the same specie in different locations, that is good too. SW Gardener, wouldn't you like to be the first CANADIAN to enter some specie pictures, into the plant files database for the World? And you readers in Japan? and Australia, France, England, India, or whatever country that you live in. Now that Davesgarden has gone international, the whole world can contribute photos to the PLANT FILES photo data base. You only need to post a new thread with your pictures, so that they can be analyzed by the Lay authorities on the forum. Frank


This message was edited Mar 3, 2007 7:15 PM

Frank, I didn't take any offence from your reply. I was just joking in my reply, and I apologize for any misunderstanding.
Yes, it would be nice to be the first Canadian to enter species photos into the Plant Files, do you have a good online source for seeds?

Steven

The 'x' symbol which is used to designate a cross or a hybrid has historically been interpreted as meaning both 'with' and 'onto' and so sometimes a literature search will yield results showing that people who have interpreted the 'x' to mean 'onto' will have placed the male/pollen/donor plant first and those that have interpreted the 'x' to mean 'with' have usually placed the female/receptor/seed/pod plant first...

The habit and tradition of listing the donor or the receptor first has varied from country to country,varied with particular plant groups and has changed relative to particular periods in time...so,it's important to clarify which plant was used as the donor and the receptor...

Just a few musings to consider...

Cypripedium Hybrids by Name
http://www.ladyslipper.com/cyphyb2.htm

Other references
http://www.lib.virginia.edu/brown/sciscan/rhododendrons/ran0004/rhodo.htm
re: April,8,1951
https://www.rhododendron.org/v54n4p187.htm
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2004-June/018123.html
http://www.ohiou.edu/phylocode/
http://www.systass.org/index.shtml


Interspecific hybrids in Ipomoea are very rare considering the number of species in the genus and so when a true interspecific hybrid occurs the plant is considered to be a new species and may be given a new name e.g., Ipomoea sloteri or Ipomoea x leucantha...true interspecific hybrids within the Ipomoea genus have been shown to possess novel compounds not present in either of the parent plants...

The Ipomoea species that are native to the US and are not yet in the PlantFiles are not yet in cultivation...they need to be collected 'in the field' and made available to that population of persons interested to grow and preserve native plants in preservation and conservation gardens...

The following species which are native to the US South/SouthWest (i.e.,Arizona,New Mexico and Texas) are not yet in cultivation nor available from any commercial sources


Evolvulus arizonicus - Arizona Blue Eyes
http://www.newmexicoflora.com/pages/Evolvulus_ariz.html
http://imagedb.calsnet.arizona.edu:8080/imagedb/servlet/DBDisplayTaxon?taxon_name=Evolvulus+arizonicus
http://caplter.asu.edu/imageLibrary/ViewPhotos.jsp?id=78165

Evolvulus sericeus - silver dwarf mg
http://www.depts.ttu.edu/hillcountry/research/images/EVOLVULUS%20SERICEUS.JPG
http://museum.utep.edu/chih/gardens/plants/DtoF/evolvulussericeus.htm

Ipomoea barbatisepala - canyon mg
http://www.fireflyforest.com/flowers/violets/violet08.html

Ipomoea capillacea - purple mg - no living photos anywhere on the entire web yet

Ipomoea cardiophylla - heart leaf mg
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/81862/index.html

Ipomoea costellata - crest-rib mg
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/131446/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/131449/

Ipomoea plummerae - huachuca mg - no living photos anywhere on the entire web yet

Ipomoea pubescens - silky mg
http://132.236.163.181/cgi-bin/dol/dol_image_frame.pl?image_id=24398&image_file=http://132.236.163.181/users/bboyle/9_4_06/dol_dl_2006sep04/DSCN1473_Ipomoea_pubescens.JPG
http://132.236.163.181/cgi-bin/dol/dol_image_frame.pl?image_id=24399&image_file=http://132.236.163.181/users/bboyle/9_4_06/dol_dl_2006sep04/DSCN1474_Ipomoea_pubescens.JPG

Ipomoea rupicola - cliff mg - no living photos anywhere on the entire web yet

Ipomoea shumardiana -Southern Kansas,Oklahoma and Northern Texas - no living photos anywhere on the entire web yet


Ipomoea ternifolia - tripleleaf mg
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/126438/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/115035/


Ipomoea tenuiloba var.lemmonii (purple flowered) - threadleaf morning-glory - no living photos anywhere on the entire web yet

Ipomoea tenuiloba var. tenuiloba (white flowered) - threadleaf morning-glory
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/139597/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/139596/

Jacquemontia pringlei - Pringle's MG
http://www.fireflyforest.com/flowers/violets/violet40.html

Operculina pinnatifida - tansy-leaf lidpod - no living photos anywhere on the entire web yet

TTY,...

Ron


This message was edited Mar 18, 2007 3:32 AM

Steven..............I JUST WISH I DID. To find many weird species from around the world, we need to get those foreign members engaged. Most of our successful members at finding foreign specie seeds don't mention it on the forum. This is because they don't get enough seeds to share. Foreign sources might send you enough seeds for a 4 inch pot, and that is all. Why post that?

You are new. You probably don't know yet that those that post the specie pictures also trade back and forth with specie seeds, behind the scenes. This is a wonderful forum, with wonderful people here.

If you post your own photos for the plant files , there are many other people waiting to trade with you.
You did get seed didn't you? So Steven, get your camera ready for summer and send us thos pix that we down here can't get with ours and you will truely enjou this forum all year. Frank

I am fairly new to MG's and don't really know much about them yet, however I'm looking forward to learning alot more from everyone in this forum.
Here's what I have so far for this year...

Sunsmile Pink
Milky Way
Blue Star
I. turbinata
Heavenly Blue
Mixed purpurea
Convolvulus 'Royal Ensign'
an un-named platycodon type
and I. alba

I'm still hoping to get more though :)

Steven

How beautifully you made my point clear with the Cypripedium list. Here is a hobbyist, hybridizing Orchids and not even using the rules and conventions of the International Orchid Society! No doubt he is not a member.

I hope the rest of you take time to read Ron's post closely.

We don't have a lot of confusion here with morning glories and crosses. Orchids are so promiscuous, they are capable of inter specific crosses and intergeneric crosses. This is why the International Orchid Society is so highly structured in name keeping and record keeping. Frank

much appreciated, Ron

Okay, how about a WHY NOT question....WHY NOT start our own "International Convolvulaceae Society". If no one else has cared enough to do it, why not us?
beth

If you start your own "International Convolvulaceae Society", I'll join for sure!
Just thinking......how would we go about starting our own society?

Steven

Heres a pic of I. turbinata just emerging

I think I need to read through the US "Non-Profit Organization" rules. Has anyone experience with this sort of thing?
Beth

Beth,
Terry with Dave's has approached both Ron and myself to do just this, and possibly others that I am not aware of, to start a "Convolvulaceae Society". HOWEVER, it is my understanding that this would be a "US Society" and not International at this point - that would then progress to 'International'. Ron can clear that question up.

There is a LOT of work involved and isn't as simple as it sounds. We will need a LOT of "qualified" folks to help get this started as it desperately needs to be. Ron doesn't have the time, nor do I. So, this will be a huge 'Teamwork' endeavor. However, there are many options on getting it started which I don't believe needs to be discussed publically at this point. Just my opinion.

Anyone interested can let Ron or myself know and I will leave it up to Ron to appoint the people to do what ever functions are necessary.

There are also very stringent rules to even get the process started, including setting up our webpage as well as fees to be paid.

Beth, if you have the time to tackle getting this project going, you might want to let Ron know. But the same will apply that there will need to be MANY involved to undertake this project and not by just one person.

I am happy to hear there is interest from others in doing this.

Emma

I would be glad to help if others agree to a US society. It obviously would take the dedication of a core group of people, as one person would be overloaded with responsibility without help. Lets see if we have the interest....will everyone willing to help D-mail Emma?
Beth

OOH OOH do I love the sound of this girls. I am in. We just need to get some steam and committment behind this. I hve been a member of so many plant societies I don't even remember them all.

About 30 years ago, I joined the Royal Horticultural Society in England, just to have access to their annual seed store. They have members all over the world sending in seeds, which they sell for the revenue of the RHS. They had like 1400 kinds of seeds, mostly species.

I also joined the American Ivy Society, which according to my recollection, was at the time the only Ivy Society. But the interesting thing about that is that , it , being the Only Ivy Society, was given authority over registering every new introduction, internationally. This meant that all the new varieties had to come to the US, for registration. This made them available to Americans first.

And then I was a member of the Los Angeles International Fern Society. I loved the spore store, because you could get the impossible to get spores there from all over the world, grown domestically of course.

A Convolvulacea Society International, would secure foreign members for us, and possibly the cooperation of some importan agencies like Kew Gardens and the RHS, who are in their 5th year of a world wide dragnet, collecting seed for Kews new seed bank. They have just set up a seed repository in China in a reciprocal agreement with the Chinese Gvmt. To read more about this, google International seed collectors.

Can you imagine a morning glory seed store where the list is published annualy, and none of the emails and extra expense of trading. We could decide how many seeds to a packet, and put an end to this $10 per try mode we are used to, al things considered.

Ultimately, I see the plant files as a bridge possibly to this. It would prove that there are some serious people involved. We really need to ge more feet on the ground, taking pictures this year and fill out the emply files in the plant file. Mayby when it gets enough entries in it we could submit it to the International Botanical Congress and get them to make some final determinations on all those synonyms.

That was a catalystic comment Beth. Thanks Frank