One last JMG cross

I was going through all my pictures from last year and found one cross where I found a Chachamaru that did not have pollen and I used some pollen from a Berry Ice to pollinate it. The flowers of this cross have tiny immature pollen anthers just like the chachamaru pod parent. I got one plant and one morning I pollinated one of the flowers with pollen off of a chocolate flower and I have one seed from the whole deal.

It appears this second generation cross does not make pollen just like the pod parent didn`t make pollen. I should have been more on my toes about polllinating this one so I would have gotten more than one seed.


This message was edited Jan 19, 2007 3:33 PM

The leaves are interesting. they look intermediate between the Berry Ice and Chachamaru. The pod parent of this plant was the Chachamaru.

More leaves...

I think I have already shared this one. Here is one more of chachamaru was the pod parent and a Mt Fuji blue was the pollen parent. The leaves favor the chachamaru more but the flower is blue like the pollen parent. I did hand pollinate one of these with some pollen from a chocolate flower to see what would happen. I got only two seeds from two pods from this second cross. It did not make pollen. i never found any pollen on this exept for what the bees were spreading around and I could see the little trails on the petals. The seeds I did not hand pollinate will be crosses with whatever else in my garden the bees liked. I guess I should have done more hand pollinating.

Very interesting, Gardner.

Chachamaru was one of my first plants to bloom last year, and it never did set seed. This was before I started looking at the flowers closely...so I imagine that it had a pollen shortage as well. Did you get seed from your Chachamaru, or was the paucity of seed only from the crosses?

Arlan

I do have seeds from my chachamaru I grew but really seriously doubt from what I have experienced so far in the garden that they would grow out chachamaru flowers...without getting pollen from another similar chocolate flower that produced pollen of course. I will test grow a sample of the seeds to be able to tell more about what I have here.

On the chachamarus I saw little trails where the bees were visiting and already just the fact I tied blooms and over and over and checked every single day but still found no pollen made me suspect the pollen parent of any naturally set seed on this plant would likely be provided by the bees from whatever other flower they happened to collect pollen from and then fly over and climb into the chachamaru.

One of my chachamaru crosses only made seed from the pod I hand pollinated and it was planted in my neighbors yard away from the other flowers so I guess the bees must have neglected it or the bees didn`t have enough pollen from one of my other nils on it when it did visit the flowers. The other chachamaru/fuji cross that was blue did make seeds other than the ones I hand crossed but I doubt the natural set seeds have any selfed pods due to the fact I could not find pollen on it day after day. I`ll grow a sample to see what happened as a follow up.

This is why the concept of hand pollination is becoming more important to me this year. Cross pollination can change a variety of pink flower to blue with the recessive pink hiding in there maybe? So I`m thinking in order to get the desired flowers from seeds the hand pollination makes that more favorable rather than there being a chance(depending on the situation) the bees mixed the pollen.

Btw,the terms are pollinating.

This message was edited Mar 5, 2007 8:43 AM

Oh heck..don`t laugh! It is pollinating and pollen. Yes, I think that is right. The pollinating with 3 Ls is wrong though. Sentences begin with capital letters. I can`t edit anymore so I better quit. :)

I grew Chachamaru last year and mine set seed, but I thought it was because it did it on it's own. Apparently, it did not. I guess it's no loss then that it didn't do too well and I neglected to gather what few seeds it made. I have some seeds growing in large pots in our shop, so I guess I could add Chachamaru and pollenate it with my indoor plants. This way I know I don't have any outside influences like wind or insects to spoil any crosses. It may end up producing some rather interesting crosses.

I too will be growing Chachamaru again this year, primarily as a seed parent for crosses with the hime Beni Chidori, Minibar Rose, Cameo Elegance complex and the dwarf creepers such as the Sunsmiles, Kodachi, and Carol. This conversation has reminded me that I can't depend upon Chachamaru as a pollen source.

You are right that a pink crossed with a blue will result in blue, but carrying pink, the next (F1) generation. I will also be carefully controlling pollination of my important plants this year. In the past, it was not a problem in my garden when a stray hybrid showed up, in fact, I enjoyed the variety. I carefully separated the seed from these F1 plants, knowing that the next generation would really have greater variety from segregation. Now that I have specific goals in mind, I will make many more directed and controlled crosses.

I have just updated my database to keep track of parentage and probable genotype in anticipation to the mass of details that need to be kept organized and available.

Arlan

Love the leaves on the one you posted at the top, gardener2005! What fantastic shapes!

I love the leaves of the Chachamaru x Fuji. They remind me of dragonflies.

Hi. thanks for the compliments. A lot of what I did last year was just trying to establish a few trials to investigate what happens if...

I have new chachamaru seeds to grow this next year and it will be interesting to see if they favor the ones I bought last year. I`m going to tie blooms the evening before and check the pollen once again.

The leaves on the chachamaru/berry ice look like birds to me. The chachamaru/fuji leaves favor the pod parent chachamaru I used exept they appear thicker and have more of a texture to the leaf.

This year I`m beginning to see some varieties have greater abilities to self than others. Some of the anthers are positioned high so that when the flower opens the pollen gets dumped all over the pistil. I was able to tie these up and a quick check to see the pollen spread over the pistil and then tie it back was sufficient to get full pods on these. Then I found some where the pistils had pollen alright but they were short positioned under the pistil so there would be more probability for mixing with what the bees carried. I had to untie and work on these a little more getting the pollen where it belonged and that worked to get pods.

Either way I have concluded that open pollinated JMGs are so changable and the pollen is so spreadable that hand pollination is probably the only way to be most sure the right pollen gets on the right flowers.

I want to trade my open pollinated seeds next year so I`m going to put in that they were grown in the open and also do a test grow to see exactly what is in the batches and pictures of results will work as far as representation of examples of possible ways the flowers will turn out.

I`m going to offer hand pollinated seed too but will test grow those as well. The test grown batch is the next generation to select from the best vines and flowers to pass on to others. Then you do more hand pollinating and you can share results of the actual seeds being traded with the pictures.

So that is the plan for next year. I had better be cutting my yarns to tie blooms right now. :)

Oh yes,I start the new seeds in cells and mark them at the bottom with a yarn or small tag when they are small so I can keep possibly cross pollinated impure seedling volunteers weeded out if I cannot use a pot of new store bought dirt. I`ll be doing this a lot out in the garden..a lot of work. :)

Karen - sounds good...the flowers that have stamens higher than the stigma are called thrums and the flowers that have stamens that remain lower than the stigma are called pins...

The leaves on your yojiro cross are progressively looking more like I.nil...

TTY,...

Ron

Edited for definition correction

This message was edited Jan 21, 2007 8:32 PM

Yes,more Nil genes get more nil looks I s`pose. :)

It is interesting to know that there are terms for what I saw... pins and thrums.

I grew one yogiro that has a leaf favoring the hederacea. This one grew back true a second time.

And here is the wild blue one...

Here is a tri lobe shaped leaf from some other youjiro seeds I bought last year. This one turned out a different solid blue flower with a long skinny leaf. I saved the seed form those to see what happens next year. It is very interesting to grow and watch these.

This message was edited Feb 17, 2007 6:22 PM

The trilobed youjiro is interesting...I'd be interested in a few seeds from the plant posted above...

TTY,...

Ron

I have a little project going on with these little ones. They really impressed me with the pretty blue color. This picture is the offspring of the first flower. I got both spoked and solid blue from these and as far as the leaves some were long and skinny and others were tri lobed. I didn`t get a good picture of the strange leaves though.(Strange to me since I`m a newbie.) I have 6 -7 seeds of each of these to grow out and I will hand pollinate the blooms once I see how they look.

I will be sure to save you some seeds Ron. I will let you know if they grow out the same as before.

This is the offspring of the first spoked youjiro flower.It turned out solid blue and with a long skinny leaf and rather strange looking next to the parent. Some of the other seeds did come back like the parent plant spoked with tri lobe leaves. I marked the vines,hand pollinated and got a sample of seeds from both kinds.




This message was edited Feb 17, 2007 6:23 PM

Ron, Regarding thrum and pin, I always thought that the thrum-eyed primroses had the stamens showing and the pin-eyed had the stigma showing.... I think you may have inadvertently turned the definitions around?? ; )

Karen, I think I read somewhere that the creeper (dwarf) types have lower fertility because of the location of the stigma in relationship to the anthers. I read this long after my plants were finished so have not observed this first hand. I looked at several of my pictures, but couldn't tell. My creepers all set a good crop of open pollinated seed though.

Arlan

Arlan - Thanks for bringing the posting error to my attention...I've updated my posting to reflect the correction...

TTY,....

Ron

Hi Arlan, It is nice to hear from you. The bees help out to pollinate even the ones with the short anthers by spreading pollen. So you probably can thank the bees if you got good seed setting on any that did have the short anthers. There is likely to be more cross pollination with other flowers when the anthers are short. If you tie the bloom and hand pollinate it with the same variety then the seeds will be true. If you forget to hand pollinate one like that leaving it tied shut with the short anthers it will likely fall off and no seeds will result or it might by chance have one seed in there.

If you grow in a greenhouse with no bees or bugs in there and do not hand pollinate then the anthers being short will negatively affect the fertility.

As far as these terms the stigma is the end of the pistil the white tube in the middle where the pollen is recieved. Correct if I`m wrong. Stamens are the little filaments on which the anthers containing pollen are located on the ends.

I can remember the pin as in pollen low underneath the stigma and thrum as is the anthers being up where the stigma is located.

I wanted to mention that I got some more chachamaru seeds. I`m going to tie blooms and check for pollen again. I`m wondering if maybe some make pollen and some do not. If the chachamaru I grew doesn`t make pollen I wonder what flowers they put together to get the chachamaru? Maybe some of them do make pollen? I guess you have to grow them out and check and see.

Here is one more of this flower chachamaru x berry ice cross showing a variation on the vine. There was only one vine and some had spokes and this one is a little different. Some showed a lot more white than this around the edge too. I learned something by observing what happened here. Pink flower pollen can result in the flowers from chachamaru pods growing out pink.

This message was edited Feb 17, 2007 8:56 PM

You are doing a great job girl, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. Frank

Thanks! I can`t wait until it gets warm again...