Nin,
I'll leave the tree problem to someone else and just say about the sprouting, I don't think most of us have had that much problem. The few that do sprout if they bother you, pull them, or cut them off with the clippers. I don't think we have had enough problem with weeds to bother with the plastic or herbicides (which,btw, you don't want to use in edibles).
I will say about the tree roots tho, if that is where you want the raised beds, why not put them right on top of the roots. I would imagine the roots would benefit from them. Guess someone else will probably say something different.
Straw Bale Gardening - 2007 - (part 6)
Hi Jnette,
oh sure, the roots benefit ! They creep up and choke off what veggie/flowers/ or herb sIve tried to plant in that space! Im not sure if it's plant produced biotoxins,space crowding, or nutrient depletion (or all of teh above), but once I start seeing small masses of threads enter a bed- its not long before whats planted there starts to suffer. I do have one rosemary that seems to have fought back. Its slow growing, but doenst look liek its going to up an keel-over anymore.
Sprouting- oh! Sometimes I think it's not hearing inflection when you read a post that gets me confused sometimes. I had thought that some folk swere having issues with it!.I'm guessing you couldnt cut it it off with shears and eat it as "wheat grass", huh? Im not sure if its the same . Wouldntthat be an excellent secondary product ,tho! :D
Nin
for those of you who haven't found any bales just look online in your area. i am in n e illinois and i was surprised at how many places out in the country you can buy straw bales and these guys are pretty competitive. imagine my surprise at finding out that there are different size bales....i always thought they were all the same size. hehehe
what/where are you searching, ncjs?
Oh boy...And howdy, Kent and all other "bale-ers"!
Guess what!? I rec'd an email tonite from my DD's teacher. It seems they (7th and 8th graders) want to do some bale gardening! Can you imagine that!? Pretty cool, eh?
Although I followed along pretty closely in the first thread (even bought straw bales last year!) I have to admit there is just no time for me to read 5 threads to catch up. I'm sure they are chock full of infor, insight, tips and tricks and as time allows I'll be perusing thru them.
From the sounds of the email I rec'd the students want to get started pretty quick (after the a. nitrate period) and I think want to plant some cool weather crops (cole crops, maybe lettuce, etc). However, I don't remember reading where someone has planted any cole crops for late Winter/early Spring growing in the bales. (I do remember someone growing them in the Fall.) My question, do any of you think that planting some brocoli, cabbage, etc in the bales this time of year will give them a good crop (zone 7 here, like you, Kent).
One last question, it was originally recommended to use ammonium nitrate initially for the 'bale soak'. I seem to remember others using more "organic" ingredients. Has anyone determined yet what seemed to be the best along those lines? Bloodmeal? Cottonseed meal? Fish emulsion, etc?
Many thanks. Hoping to get back in touch and let you know how the kids do with this project!
Shoe
Something I didn't see in the first thread or this one(haven't read the others yet)is about anyone growing green beans in the bales. I can't believe no one is growing beans in them! I thought that would be the second crop behind tomatoes. Has anyone grown beans in the bales? How did they do? Also, has anyone stacked the bales 2-bales high to raise the plants up higher to assist those of us with back or other physical problems?
Thanks!
Lana
Nin, How about putting plastic down over the roots before putting your bales set up? You might even poke holes so the tree roots get watered.
NCJS, good idea. Will try it.
Shoe, on any page like this one, up in the right hand corner where it says "search" type in bloodmeal. I just did a quickie and it said it is in part 2. Don't remember the date and who it was by. Just a pointer.
Think it is great that the kids want to do this.
Lana, I am sure someone has done beans. As a matter of fact I thought I would do some this year along with peas, sweet peas, and my regular cukes and cherry tomatoes. If you read thru the threads I posted pictures of my cukes and cherry tomatoes. They did pretty good.
Yes, I remember someone did stack the bales 2 high. I don't remember who did it, or maybe we discussed it.
I don't have time to go back and look all of these things up either. So, I guess if you are really interested there is a lot of good information in all of the parts. Good hunting.
Jeanette
Happy soon-comes-spring, Horseshoe! I think your school project sounds great. There is some good stuff in the threads about using bone meal and fish emulsion tea; after starting things out with Ammonium sulfate, we used fish juice and a powdered producd form a company called "Dr. Earth" that comes in sacks, for fertilizing, with great success.
We have kohlrabi, cabbages, beets, and greens of various sorts in the bales right now -- the same bales we started last April -- and if we hadn't been traveling so much this winter, we'd have broccoli going as well.
A neighbor of ours piled her bales two deep, and had some difficulties with how they slumped as things grew and helped parts of the bales decompose at different rates. some sort of containment / fencing around the perimeter might be a good thing to plan in.
We grew lots o' blue lake bush beans that thrived and bore very well until the tomato plants overtook their bale, "coco" black beans (that didn't do so well, and I was wondering if that one bale had herbicide problems out of the set we had); dragon tongue beans, that are a not-too-tall vine. We didn't put pole beans in the bales, setting those out in the yard in a couple of tripods/circles, one with a mammoth grey sunflower for them to grow on once they outgrew the stakes we had, and the other with a tithonia in the middle of the tripod, with scarlet bees runner beans that are Gorgeous.
If you have troubles finding ammonium nitrate, ammonium sulfate works very well; the U of -- Montana, I think it was? (thread two or so back there I think I'd plunked a link) found in test pasturage that it actually worked out better in the long run.
Hi Shoe,
Your kids will enjoy this! I started mine last year with blood meal. Works great! I used a cup per bale every three days (twice) and then cut down to 1/2 cup every other day until the bales got good and hot. Water it in good. Stick your hand down in the partitions to tell when they are heated up.
I started both broccoli and cabbage in my bales in the early spring but neither did very well. I don't think I fed them enough after they got a good start.
Here's some cabbage set out on April 11th here in KY.
Good luck.
Red
Thanks, Big Red...I knew someone had tried it. Did you fertilize regularly after the initial heat-up/cool down period?
Jnette and RTemple, much obliged for the tips. I"ll be sure to pass everything on.
Happy Growing, Everyone!
Shoe
Wow!
I'd love to get my sons school into some kind of gardening. I had thought mabye 4-5th graders might be especially interested in Vermicomposting and gardening. All kids love icky worms! hmm.. no wjust how one might get some of teh loocal farmers/retailers to donate bails?
Jnette, I Had thought of putting down some of that breathable fabric with a layer of leaves on top then my beds. Heck, teh roots can get their water eslewhere! all I want is 2 4x12 patches that dont get invaded! LOL. Not by deer,not by insects, not by tree roots.Heck, not even by my weirdo cats who feel liek they have to roll in ever pungent herb I grow. Cat aren't supposed to like citrus! Why decimate my lemon Thyme?? Dang, I sound rather inhospitable, dont I?
LOL- Nin
Shoe, unfortunately I didn't. Although my tomatoes did great, my Golden Acre cabbage only grew to about the size of softballs. Be sure to stress, WATER REGULARLY!
All I did to start my grass bales was water them thoroughly. I used a frying thermometer to find the temp in the middle of the bale and when it began to cool I planted my veggies. Everything did good but the slugs ate my peppers. I planted several kind of tomatoes, eggplant, and yellow squash. I fertilized with a paste made from rabbit pellets and water. I smeared it onto the tops of the bales and watered it in. I did that two or three times and my things loved it.
The two straw bales I used were a bust. I planted cucumbers in them and they didn't do a thing. Spindly and weak. I'll use all grass this year.
Nin,
The grade schools here have raised beds. The Master Gardners got them started and supervise each year. They get with the local stores for donations of the soils, seeds, ferts, or whatever.
And the fabric should work well. I am surprised I didn't think of that instead of plastic 'cause I use it under my portable greenhouse every year and it works great.
Has anybody used "urea" to get their bales going?
Steve
Hi Steve,
I think that is what I ended up using last year because I couldn't find the other. Actually, I don't know why a high nitrogen lawn food wouldn't work just as well. If you look at the NPK's on that stuff there are a lot of things alike.
When I went to the feed store and asked for the Nitrate I thought they were going to call the cops. Couldn't believe the uproar over it. Yes, they could order me some. 50# and then they would have to have my name, address, phone #, height, weight, etc. Just kidding. Almost that bad.
The main difference in some are organic vs chemical.
Jeanette
I used urea also. Worked just fine. : )
~Lucy
Urea breaks down to ammonia, among other things.
here's materials safety data sheet:
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/u4725.htm
Careful of it as a respiratory hazard - use gloves, a breath mask, and don't get it on your skin.
All: trying to catch up; great conversations going on here. Lots of new voices. Welcome, aboard!
I've called my bale supplier and reserved 100 bales. Price should be 2.50/bale, delivered. I'll use about 60 and a church member will use the rest as he tries bale gardening for the first time.
I've about changed my mind on using synthetic twine over hemp.
The still-good-as-new synthetic twine was a big nuisance when I made my potato row with the old bales. As I used the pitch fork to turn the bales over and loosen them up, the pitch fork would catch on the twine. Hemp would have rotted long ago.
With the bales butted up against each other in my rows, the synthetic twine didn't add as much support as I anticipated anyway. The twine gets loose rather quickly as the bales decompose regardless of the composition.
Lana: 2 bales high would certainly give you more heigth. If you try this, I'd put some plastic between the bales to keep the bottom row as dry as possible so they'll stay firmer longer for support.
Jeanette: Here's my concern about using the lawn food as a way to get the bales "cooking". I'm not sure how long it would take all the ingredients to dissolve and wash through the bales. Undissolved ingredients may affect the plants in an adverse way. 100% guessing on my part, though. Maybe someone more astute in chemistry could give their take.
Ammonium Nitrate dissolves rapidly, gets the job done, and there are no ingredients in the P-K category to cause any problems down the road.
Alternatives: Big Red's testimony about the Blood Meal. Others with their compost teas.
Then there's Cajun's method of just using plain ol' water and a little more time.
Kent
I've had trouble getting my wheat-straw bales to heat up with just blood meal and organic fertilizer (high-nitrogen guano, seed meal, lime, bone meal, & kelp meal). It may be because my bales are so tight. However, I want to plant peas (snow, snap, shelling, and Asian pea vine) very soon, so try to speed things up, a few days ago I dissolved about 8 oz. of saltpeter in warm water and sprinkled it over 7 bales.
The bale temps still hadn't risen, so today I added about 3 gallons of EM (effective micro-organisms) mixed with a quart of feed molasses as a starter carbon source for them. A gentle rain is predicted for the next couple of days, which will rinse the mixture down into the bales. I'll post the results in a few days..
This message was edited Feb 15, 2007 5:42 AM
Just finished reading all 6 links (it took about 4 or 5 days!) Am going to start small with 9 bales of wheat straw which I bought and set out two days ago. Already had our first good rain (not a problem in the rainforests of WNC) so I am going to see how it goes with just water between now and planting time. Average last frost in this area is 4/15, so I have time to experiment. Last year was my first real gardening experience and I learned you don't plant veggies under a black walnut tree! Garden this year will be on the other side of the old tractor barn from that tree. How long after the last average frost is it safe to plant (as in "all danger of frost is past")? This forum is saving my sanity, as I hate Feb. I get cabin fever cause it is too cold for comfort outside. In addition to the strawbales I will have one 6'x6'x8" raised bed and on 3'x9'x4" semi-raised bed where I used to have a compost pile (that's now back under the black walnut tree!). I'm in my mid-sixties now with arthritis and thinking about my need to plan for future aging problems, so hoping this strawbale gardening will help me pursue my gardening dreams. There sure is a wealth of knowledge in these threads! Thanks to all of you.
Lana, what are you going to plant? If you are planting tomatoes, what kind of support are you going to give them? Kent, did you think of this for her? You might give her some tips on this.
You lost me on the lawn fert Kent. If it is granular like all the rest why wouldn't it disolve too? With all the water we pour on I didn't think it would be a problem. Oh well, it is not an issue yet. We still have 2 feet of snow out there. LOL
Johnson, I see you are in Olympia. My daughter in Seattle told me today that they are running in the 50s during the day so I assume you are pretty close to the same. Kent, do you think the bales would heat up with temps like that? I think she said 40s at night.
Sandie you mean to tell me that you actually read all of them? Good for you. Hope you took notes on the stuff you thought you could use. It is hard finding something after you pass over it.
You asked how soon after the first frost date can you plant. Are you planting seeds or seedlings? Either way, if you are concerned I would think maybe a fruit jar, newspaper cap, or anything if you get warnings of cold weather would work. Just my thoughts.
We all get cabin fever in February. That is why these forums, seed catalogs, etc are good. These strawbales along with your raised beds will keep you too busy to think about your arthritis. Also, sometimes the workout really makes you feel good at night.
Yes Kent, it is really nice to hear from all of these new people too. Guess it is kind of early for some of the others from last year, but they will be along.
Jeanette
Sandie, won't the compost pile now pick up juglone from the walnut tree and poison everything you use it on?
aeei!,
the mind boggle sat al the things one can Try to implememt here.
Jnette- will do! Hey! We just hired a Master Gardener for our twon last year! I wonder if she would work out in teh school .......
Inspiring gardeners! I thank you!
Nin (where its zone 7a, and 22 degrees! dang!)
Jeanette, I think I remember that you are east of me at about the same latitude, near Ione, doesn't say in your heading. The snow is slowly melting, gone on south slopes. My lane is solid now with the ice gone. I planted tomato seeds a couple of days ago, in Parks plug set up. Works good for me. I planted a few tomatoes 10 days ago, 5 seeds, for real early. All 5 germinated and have been transplanted to 4" pots.
I am going to try some straw bales this year, haven't tried it before. Wish the bales weren't so expensive, the only place that has them, they are 5.50 per bale. So Kents and the rest of you who post info has been very helpful.
DonnaS
I will be planting tomatoes, squash, green beans, and cukes in the bales. I have fence posts and woven wire fencing, also have cattle panels I could use. Making a support won't be a problem, we use to farm and have all kinds of stuff here to use. Just wish I had some manure left :~D
Lana
WvDaisy
You are more than welcome to come muck out my horse stalls and take all the "fertilizer" you like. LOL I think that is what I will make my "smear" out of this year. I don't have access to the rabbit from last year. I clean up behind 18 horses so I'll have to improvise. And the 65 head of cattle should be able to contribute a little something.
That's a lot of crap, Cajun :~D I hope to get a few goats and maybe some mini horses sometime soon. Just gotta have the money. Then I'll be able to compost again! I had to get rid of my goats and horse over 2 years ago due to a neck and back injury...I miss them.
Lana
Hey Lana,,, JustMeLisa is maybe wanting to give away her 3 nubians although we are trying to talk her out of it.
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3191775
Jeanette: my concern regarding the use of lawn fertilizer as a way to get the bales cooking hinges on whether any of the ingredients are slow-release or not, and whether it would have an adverse impact on any young plants.
I'm probably trying to find a problem where none exists.
Kent
Kent, and all others...
I'm trying to figure out if the bales can be "heated up" during colder months. I realize that a compost bin will stop (or slow down) cooking/breakdown when the air temp drops to "cold"! I am not the least bit familiar with ammonium nitrate/sulfate so I'm not sure how it works...my question is:
If you use the a. nitrate on your bales to condition them, will it (and the water applied) create the heat needed even if we are having cooler temperatures? Or, like cooking compost, does the air temperature play a role also?
Also, Big Red, when you used blood meal, did you apply it during cool days or warmer days? Same question is coming to mind ('does air temp play a role in getting the nitrate/blood meal to kick in?')
Thanks,
Shoe
Shoe ... If you put your bales out in late fall, like I did, they'll be ready by spring. No further work needed.
Thanks, summerkid!
Unfortunately, 'late fall' has passed. Think it is too late to try that now? Almost March here, zone 7, will be planting in the ground soon.
Shoe
No, I don't. Lots of precipitation & possible freezes to break them in.
Thanks for thinking of me, Darius! I've been following Lisa's trials and tribulations just as I have your move to the cold VA mountains :~) I dmailed her this morning. Told her I would come get them if she really wanted to get rid of them and could have them back anytime. It's a long drive though 7hrs 430 mi so I'm trying to give her advice on how to make it thru till spring. She loves those goats. I know how she feels I still miss mine after 2.5 yrs. I still remember when she got the goats and I was giving her care, milking, and bottle feeding advice...that was awhile back :~) In 01 or 02.
Lana
Donna!! Hey great to hear from you. My Helebores you sent to me bloomed the first year! Thanks! What tomatoes did you plant so early? Gosh, we still have a lot of snow. I won't plant my tomatoes (in the house, and then in the greenhouse to harden them off) until April. I looked at my notes from last year and didn't start my bales until the 3rd week of April. But, that was late. That was when I first read Kent's post.
$5.50 is quite a lot. But, I paid $4 and $4.50 last year the end of April. Guess it depends on how badly you want to do this. I have a pretty good idea what your territory is like, but not your specific garden. i.e. if you have ammended with compost etc. I am really anxious to see what the ground is like under a couple of my bales. The ground was like cement last year. Hence the bales. It sure would be nice if I could just move bales around and soften that stuff up each year more and more. LOL
Kent, I think if I start soon enough this year and end up using the lawn fert that hoepfully it would be washed out.
Cajun, why don't you start a business of baggin' that stuff and shipping it. LOL I think I would take rabbit stuff any day. Hey, come to think of it, maybe I will this year. OR, maybe I will get that bat guano out of my attic!!
Jeanette
Shoe, I started my bales last year on the 30th of March, temps in the 50's and 60's. I suspect that real cool/cold weather would slow down the decomposition significantly. Can't hurt to try though. ☺
Jeanette, I have made and used compost for at least 50 years. Never seem to have enough. glad your helebores bloomed for you. Mine are still this year under snow, but at least I can see the tops of the old leaves.
I planted Park's Sweet Baby Girl cherry tom. My oldest son in Baton Rouge had bought some seed of them last year but forgot to plant and forgot that he had the seed, ordered more, then found the older ones. so he send me the 2007 seed, I just wanted to try to get some really early ripe tom. They are looking good under lights in the gh. Have planted the rest of my tom. seeds now.
I can't move the bales either, have to have the fellow who works for me do it. I plan to go to town this afternoon and buy some bales.
It was weird here over night. When I went to bed it was cloudy and temp. was 29 degrees, when I got up at 5:30 this morning it was pretty clear, could see stars, and the temp. is/was 34 degrees. So I think it will be a pretty day.
Shoe: I found a good article about straw bale decomposition. Here's an excerpt from page 2 on the effects of temperature:
"Temperature is an important parameter for microorganism growth. Below 32 degrees these tiny lifeforms cannot exist because water is frozen. Many fungi and bacteria cannot survive at temperatures below 50 degrees so growth is not very active at low temperatures. In the range of 68 to 150 the fungi and bacteria can thrive..."
I started prepping my bales last year April 20 and recorded the temp at 72 during that first day, and my bales started "cooking" immediately.
http://www.ecobuildnetwork.org/pdfs/How_Straw_Decomposes.pdf
Kent
http://www.garden.org/regional/report/national/2358 A new variety of small squash detailed in the NGA bulletin. Might be good for bale gardens