Anyone else for a bird forum or id file ?

There is nothing to rehash. You never provided anything significant. If you think that you did just link to it.

My very favorite cartoonist is Gary Larson, honored by the California Academy of Sciences. I loved his cartoon showing a very pastoral, natural scene of meadows and plantlife. Grazing animals, birdies, trees. You see a Huge Hand holding a vial containing a male and a female human. The Hand slips, the lid pops off and the two humans drop out of the vial. "God" says ...... "Ooooops!"

What is the purpose of this thread? To influence Dave to include a Birdwatching Forum?, Birding ID forum? Are you all being as persuasive as you can? Are you using reasonable, logical language to achieve this goal?

Some of you should really take a look at the art of debate and what it takes to achieve your goals, make other interested parties appreciate what you appreciate and let them have their way too.

BUT! if a new forum is not what you want you're doing a very good job of achieving that!



This message was edited Dec 31, 2006 5:55 PM

Sorry I just came in to this conversation.
First I'd like to say I don't inderstand the nasty attitude with you Stelco. I don't even know you but you come across very bitter towards folks you should have no beef with personally.
As for the Bluebird expert he has never had a problems with Hosps. He said if he did have a problem that the first thing he would do would be to trap them and take them far away and release them because they are not known to be long travelers. If that did not work then he would be forced to humanely euthanize (sp?) them.
Like I said on the other forum, I have no problem with that as long as all other options have been tried. I would never be able to do it myself though.
I honestly don't think I would ever put houses up knowing about these problems.

I think that if we were to have a forum that IF a persons asks about dealing with hosps after they've tried ALL other options and failed that Stelco could give them a link to a site that informs them how to do away with them. If there were other questions then they could D mail you (Stelco). I don't see the need to discuss it in the open forum. Pelle

I don't read any "nasty attitude" out of Stelco, I read frustration. I have just spent the better part of 2 hours doing searchs. Using... trapping sparrows, house sparrows, HOSP, relocating house sparrows etc etc. Everything I have been reading says to trap and euthanize. To trap and relocate only relocates the problem. Two ways of managing HOSP, passive and aggressive, with aggressive the most often used. I honestly don't know where the information that English House Sparrows are some great and wonderful bird is coming from.

From this site http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/ban/hsbyse.htm comes this, and much much more.

Okay but I still do not understand why anyone would have the need to have open discussions about it in a forum.
Just giving the person a link on how to do it would be fine.

I understand Stelco is frustrated. If I had bluebirds and saw them being killed by hosps, I'd be sick about it.

I know that taking them to a different area is not helping the situation but I think most people do not feel comfortable destroying them as their First solution.

Stelco, Don't you feel giving a person a link to a website would be enough?

My father used to say to me when I was young,

"Never believe anything you hear and only half of what you see and you will not go far wrong"

Think about that.

What is more important here is that a kind and caring person is being attacked to the point where it is painful, and what for? A gentle, caring human being wishes to help preserve God's creatures, and more importantly is willing to suffer on their behalf.

I sometimes feel so ashamed of my fellow mankind. Where is your compassion? This need not be battered to the point of death here. If those wishing to follow their beliefs of control want to prove their point, please do it elsewhere, DG should be a place for peace and harmony.

Do many of you realise that a good percentage of the people who regularly post on DG do so because they have the time to spare, and they mostly have the time to spare because of an illness, myself included. This should be a place for us to be involved peacefully, it helps us to forget our troubles and makes us feel we are contributing something to the world.

Please, stop this madness. Give us space to breathe and be happy. Life can be hard enough without this to add to it. Stelco, as frustrated as you may be, I beg of you to try to place yourself in the shoes of someone who has suffered, it is difficult to do unless you have been there. I hope for your sake you will not have to be in that position, it is no fun. I am asking you, begging of you, to show compassion.

pelletory, It happens all the time in various other forums I've visited. We had them here until a few people complained and the threads were put over into the Foes forum. So, if you have a question regarding the dispatching of HOSP, you can still ask about it in a Foes forum and it is still allowed. Stelco has given many links before. This "discussion" has come up before regarding HOSP and EUST.

That First solution? It does not come easy nor does it come first for most people. Most people try the passive way first, but it doesn't typically work. If it does for you, then great! Congratulations! But it's not working for me.

Out of curiosity, have you followed the links provided? This one is another one that is very informative, in case you haven't run across it in your research regarding the destruction done by HOSP. http://www.sialis.org/hosp.htm

Terry I am not against destroying non native things that truly hurt our own species.

Thats not what I'm talking about.

I just wanted to have a Bird Forum with lots of photos and stories etc.

Most of the members did not want open discussions about the destroying of hosps.

Stelco seem against that.

Thats why I was mentioning links in place of discussions.

I'm sorry pelletory, I misunderstood your question. I believe the fear is that someone will ask questions on the new bird forum about something like putting up a bluebird house and then wouldn't be given the information on the effects of HOSP. There's a number of threads over on Garden Foes that does have links, but I'm not sure of the whereabouts of them. I really have to agree to disagree, I don't believe most members are against the discussion of the destruction of HOSP. It's a tough subject, but one that should be discussed. I'm sorry it's offensive to some, but it really does need to be brought up when somebody wants to attract bluebirds and have them nest in a box they've provided. Again, I really am sorry I misunderstood you.

wallaby, I'm sorry you're ill, but again, sometimes tough topics need to be discussed.

Thats okay.

This is such a nice busy site that I would love to have a bird forum and was just trying to find some way that we could all get what we wanted without anyone getting offended by that subject.


I belong to another bird forum thats really wonderful. There are some terrific photographers there. There is obviously not the amount of members there that are here.

I've never heard the subject of dealing with hosps ever brought up. I'm sure they deal with it by exchanging info about that in private e mails so as not upset anyone.

I really had the impression that most members here were against discussing the hosp subject in the bird forum.

I still hope we find a way to have a Birdwatchers Forum.

~~~ tosses in my two coppers ~~~

Hi guys! First off, i LOVE it when an issue i hadn't considered is brought to my attention, whether it be on this forum or elsewhere. More than any other source, i learn by listening to the viewpoints of others. However, when differing opinions give way to personal attacks, my mind freezes over.

A few examples, not specifically germane to this thread:

My current home is fairly new to me. On a fairly regular basis, deer visit the yard. I LOVE them! I delight in observing their behaviors, and i don't mind sacrificing whatever tender shoots sustain them (though i will undoubtedly try to guide them away from my newly planted this-or-thats with soap or cayenne pepper or whatever seems prudent when the time comes so newly introduced, tender plants won't perish). I so love the deer that i was entertaining the notion of putting up salt licks to help them get through winter. Well, i didn't realize until i encountered a thread here at Dave's Garden that the topic of deer in residential spaces is really very controversial! The discussion here was very edifying, and i opted to NOT get salt licks based on what i'd read. However, the thread did also get quite adversarial, and i felt very uncomfortable about it. Still, i learned something and was able to make a more informed decision.

On another note, someone posted a topic on one of the other forums about a raccoon problem they were having. Ever the tangential thinker, i added something to the thread about my mole problem - GADS what a mole problem i had this past summer! Snakes, field mice, birds of all feathers i don't mind one little bit. In fact, i love them. But those moles and the dozens and dozens of mounds they were creating on a daily basis were driving me nuts. I tried many products, and as a last resort, i was brutal and did away with them (the ones closest to the house anyway - i've left the ones in the rear field alone). To me, it was an appropriate issue to discuss, though i realize not everyone would agree with the choice i made (and didn't).

The issue being discussed here is entirely new to me. I've been casually watching birds all my life, but i've never observed the diversity that i have here. I would find myself buckling my brows at the blue jays, because i perceived them to be bullying the other birds around the bath. And i was amazed when a trio of little birds with pointed wing tips chased a single hawk clear to the other side of the sky. "Why don't you peck them?!" i was thinking to myself. "You're bigger then they are!" I mention this now because i'm sure there's very precious information to be mined from this thread, but i'm having a hard time getting at it because the tenor of the discussion seems so confrontational.

I guess my point is ... posters, don't stop posting. Experts and people who only perceive themselves to be experts play a very important role here, and should continue to add their views to these threads because a lot of novice gardeners and fledgling environmentalists benefit from the information. Even when we differ, at the core, i think we're all on the same side.

Stelco, I apologize for my earlier remarks if they were hurtful. I do clearly understand your passion about this subject. Pelle

Happy New Year to All!

I must admit I am incredibly relieved to come back to this thread after the guests have left to not find everyone tearing chunks of cyber flesh out of each other.

I have a couple of comments. magpied mentioned this, "Having been in the rehab field, I am no stranger to dying birds. I've had to euthanize many myself". Interesting. I've been in that situation and drove all the way to a vet 20 some miles away with tears streaming down my face and my food coming up my throat with the bird gently wrapped in a kitchen dish towel on the seat beside me because I couldn't do what was right and destroy a bird that I knew wasn't going to make it. My husband was out of town and my one neighbor who could have bailed me out and lessened the time the bird had to suffer was at work . It was a Mourning Dove. I give you credit for being able to do what needed to be done. People like me should not be rehabbers.

betterbloom mentioned this, "I live in a motorhome. If I don't like my neighbors I can move in 10 minutes", braggart ;)

pelletory mentioned this, "I've never heard the subject of dealing with hosps ever brought up. I'm sure they deal with it by exchanging info about that in private e mails so as not upset anyone". I would like to believe control methods are being exchanged privately but suspect this type of a private exchange to be the exception not the norm. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that these issues generally aren't openly or privately discussed. Most people take matters into their own hands out of pure and unadulterated frustration because they have no idea non lethal methods exist that might prove effective. The first thing many who have a problem end up with when battling a "foe" on their own seems to be readily available posions off the shelf from their local big box store. The target species ingests the poison and then birds and mammals eat the dead or dying bird which frequently results in a secondary lethal poisoning. Time and time again I hear of people who resorted to poisons because they didn't know there were options.

I honestly don't think I know a person who wouldn't opt for a passive route first before resorting to active control methods if they knew they were out there. It's only human nature to avoid destroying anything at all cost which is why we all break when there is even the slightest movement in the road when we are driving. Think about that one, we all break for movement in the roadway.

Tossing in my pennies as well, since I really like the way this thread is unfolding. Lots of good considerate thinking going on here!

estreya, I thought that was an excellent post in a thread of many really good posts. I had a similar learning experience when I wandered into DG last year. I'd just moved from a place with almost no HOSP to a place where they outnumber everything else, and I learned a great deal from reading here. I did not know how to deal with HOSP problems, and I didn't know about the strong opinions on both sides. I read and I learned so I could find the route that was best for me. I generally think an open exchange of information is usually the best way for people to help each other, it's what I love about Dave's Garden!

I do think that some of these topics are appropriate to discuss, simply because these "dispatch" techniques do exist and actually are in use by people who have devoted their lives to birds. But, these techniques are also distateful and upsetting to others, who have also devoted their lives to birds. On the other hand, being banned from ever talking about them is kind of like pretending that dispatch techniques don't exist...and they do exist. I just wish we could find a way so people could access that knowledge if they wanted to, as part of their learning experience, so they could make their own decision about what to do in their own backyard. I have read both threads and I still don't know the best way to do this. The problem is, it just gets very heated and very personal in a short time, complete with name calling and so forth.

pelletory, I don't blame you one bit for thinking that most of the people in this discussion do not want to hear any discussion about HOSP problems in a bird forum. Reading these current threads I would have that impression as well. But I actually think there are a lot of posters who truly value an open discussion and exchange of info, but they just decide not to place themselves in the line of fire. Some of them have been here before. I accidentally got tangled up in the last round of HOSP stuff by posting with another member while trying to figure out what to do with my own sparrow problem. I was not aware of the heated nature of the argument at the time, but our posts upset a few other members and soon the debate was off and running. I felt horrible. Frankly I think any kind of killing of wildlife is a pretty horrific option to consider, but my situation required figuring out what my legal options were...all of them. If I ever did dispatch sparrows, it would be completely gut-wrenching and I honestly don't know if I could do it. But was I wrong to discuss it as part of my learning, and as part of my way to find the best solution for my own yard? I didn't think so at the time, but others did.

That particular round of HOSP discussions got a lot more heated and personal than this one has (thank goodness) and many of the threads were eventually deleted. It took me several bottles of Maalox and a carton of Tums to recover from those discussions, and it also caused me to post a bit less often to the wildlife-related forums.

That's one problem that will have to be dealt with...even if we can find a way to have an unspoken understanding on how/where HOSP stuff can be directed or discussed, there will always be newcomers like me who wander in and say the wrong thing without knowing the problems it might create. It's a tough thing to figure out, and I don't blame Dave for giving it a lot of thought beforehand. Maybe in the New Year we will find a solution. I hope so! Happy New Year!
Sheri

Happy New Year!

Thanks to my friend, terryr, for your support and understanding. Thanks to everyone who has provided thoughts about this matter. Thanks to my friend Equilibrium for offering ideas and options and links. Thank you, pelletory, for trying to understand.

I am frustrated. I drive an 80 mile round trip, once or twice a week, to maintain a Bluebird Trail and Purple Martin refuge that has been there for decades. I do this from March through August and then off and on through the year. The man who started this “sanctuary” is now 81 years old. There are literally hundreds of bird houses in this area that I don’t even know about. House Sparrows and European Starlings have killed so many birds and destroyed so many nests on my own property and at the sanctuary that I feel like I have to give something back. As an ancestor of people who polluted our air with these birds I feel responsible for helping our native birds. When the air used to be filled with as many Purple Martins as there are Starlings now and the native birds had habitat and no competition from non-native, invasive species things were different. Now, all we can do is try to help or give up.

There are those that say I can’t help. I don’t believe it. I make my trip to the Purple Martin refuge because nobody has a single pair of Purple Martins anywhere closer and this colony needs to be preserved. These birds are so rare in Michigan that they are a species of special concern. The Eastern Bluebird was on the brink of extinction until man helped it. Man can heal some of the problems that man introduces. Some folks think that what I do is useless and some folks think that we can’t help to reduce global warming. I disagree with them and I take notes. When you lose seven out of eight Tree Swallow nests with eggs to House Sparrows something is wrong. When you lose more than 50% of Bluebird nests with eggs and/or young to House Sparrows something is wrong. When House Sparrows displace native Purple Martins something is wrong. When European Starlings take over Purple Martin housing we lose a whole Purple Martin colony, that’s wrong. When you open a nest box and find the corpse of the mother Tree Swallow that you “know” sitting on her eggs, under a new House Sparrow nest, something is wrong.

I will never stop trying to explain that these birds don’t belong here and are a curse. They have adapted to this new environment so well that they are not just a problem. These flying vermin are lower than the Cockroach under your shoe. The flying rats are much worse than that Mouse you just trapped. The Mouse and Cockroach were here 500 years ago. The HOSP and EUST were not.

Why does a new forum that exalts birds have to exclude any mention of parasitic pests? Open the new forum to free speech and freedom from censorship. If these birds were supposed to be protected some state would do so. Maybe there is a tofu friendly forum on the PETA website that would step on any mention of dealing with flying rats?

If you eat meat or wear leather isn’t it hypocritical to say that what I do, under the law, is wrong? If I am not wrong why should my voice not be heard? Yep, I’m frustrated. I try to help native birds and do so with the blessing of my nation and my state. In Dave’s Garden the law seems to take a back seat to emotion. That’s too bad.

Happy New Year Stelco From Australia.
It is only 7.13 pm in Aus. at the moment.
But We are 1 day ahead of you.
So I`m Sitting here in Monday Night.
You have a good one, ya hear. Kell.

Happy New Year Everyone!

Yes I agree that the subject of the problem should be able to be discussed. My only issue was that I did not want to hear the details of the killing (hence the link thing).

Dave was the first one to say he didn't want to hear about the Hosp issue so I guess this forum will never happen anyway.

Pelle

It's good to see that we all do care.

Stelco I do feel for your situation, I do admire anyone who makes the effort to conserve what they believe to be in need of conservation. I do see that you have a very valid point, thank you for discussing this in a way people can see what your passion is, and I will state here it is an admiral thing your are doing.

Life unfortunaetly takes it's toll on many who have seen battle zones, whatever the good cause may be. I do hope your passion doesn't take it's toll on you too. It can be a lonely road for a person to take when they feel all others around them are not helping. Then if you can't follow through with your purpose, who can take your place? I see you are trying to fill the place of another passionate individual who was also showing their concern and love of some of God's creatures.

Life can be hard, and we are in an age of so much more media information than ever before. How can we simple but complex humans cope with it all? I don't see that any one individual can, but by trying to educate others can help a cause, and this media we now have of being able to communicate so easily worldwide is a boon to anyone who wants to do that.

Yes I can see the need for discussion, as has been stated by not being able to discuss options then who can possibly make an informed decision. And to err is human. It is the freedom to be able to make our own decisions on how any of us want or will cope with a certain situation that we in the free world should be able to appreciate.

That does not mean that we will always get it right, and I would be amazed if anyone got it right on their first attempt to try to understand how they should go about anything. We can only go by what we have learnt, or experienced, or experienced after we have learnt and found that it doesn't make us feel good about what we have done.


Stelco, the beauty of Dave's Garden is that poitics are not discussed here, and this is a refuge for many who do not want to discuss politics. In a way the topic of HOSP and EUST becomes politics. I am not denying the need for politics, just not here on DG.

I wish you all well, another year perhaps a new perspective for all of us. Life is short but wonderful, enjoy.

We now do have a Bird Forum!
http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/birdwatching/all/

Happy New Year Everyone!

Congratulations on the new bird forum, enjoy!

Just a thought.

How about one of the cavity nesting landlords starting a new thread on passive control of English House Sparrows and European Starlings. Everyone who has ever practiced passive control or anyone who has ever run across a passive control method that they'd like to discuss or anyone who has questions or concerns about passive control methods SHOULD contribute. Let the thread run its course back here in Gardening For Wildlife with the final posts addressing that there will be situations where passive control may not be enough particularly around large cities in which a tremendous amount of habitat loss has occurred where these particular birds exist in numbers that may warrant a second look at alternate control methods not previously discussed?

Such a thread should probably include other threats to cavity nesters and birds in general such as chemicals.

If the thread remains non confrontational and if the thread contains no personal attacks while remaining educational so the reader is left to determine what is best for their unique situation as well as what is within their comfort zone, we could respectfully request that the Admins make it a sticky in Gardening For Wildlife. Everyone has editing powers so no post is permanent. Don't like what you typed when taking a second peek, then edit it.

It's all about empowering people with choices when things go bad. For the people like oldmudhouse who exited stage left when they believed they couldn't at least discuss the existence of such methods, I hope you all return. I think everyone would agree that we don't want anyone out there feeling as if these birds have a choice in their behavior. There is no bad bird just as there is no good bird regardless of its native range. Yet, on the other hand, we don't want people who may have a problem poisoning their problem or going after their problem with the blunt end of a shovel. Yup, I've heard of people who were so frustrated that they actually waited by nest sites to go after them with shovels as well as people who tried to wait for them to come back to their nests to feed their young to blow them up. People who feel desperate do desperate things. There are far too many options out there... to include removing the housing entirely... for people to feel helpless.

I think if a thread such as this existed back here that could be referred to by members posting in a new Birdwatching Forum and if members who garden for wildlife go over and support their Birdwatching Forum in that thread where this new forum was requested that they might have a chance at making it Forum #199. Look to the Pets Forum for inspiration. And please take this into consideration,

Oops, that's what I get for going to the bathroom in the middle of a post.

Congratulations to all!

((thank you))

Tis a wonderful idea to provide the info .. for folks to 'access' the info (they) may desire/need !!

- Magpye

It sure has been a success.
Well done Fellas.
%%%%%%%%%% (hand clapping)

Ginger, it hasn't been a sucess, it has been a SMASHING sucess!!!! LOL

Well, after reading this entire thread I was going to ask about passive dispatching of HOSP's. But EQ already beat me to it. I would be very interesting to learn more about that. I would love to have a blue bird trail, but its been my understanding without HOSP control, they nearly always fail. I would definitely be interested in passive HOSP control, because the humane dispatching of birds has kept me from even trying to maintain a bluebird house.

joepyeweed,

That's exactly why nobody has started a thread on "how to" run a Bluebird trail with passive control alone. It cannot be done. The result is always a neglected HOSP trail, which just makes things worse for people like me (and our native cavity nesting birds). Don't even think about it. It's a waste of time, money and energy.

oh stella, you're just no fun :o)

"You quit that howling down there and go to bed." :)

What could be more fun than digging holes in the ground and putting up birdhouses?

lol......

What could be more fun? Actually seeing the pretty little birds that would occupy the house and not a HOSP????
Seriously Mark, I haven't seen a HOSP in a quite some time. We had a cardinal yesterday, and a red bellied woodpecker a week or two ago. I've also got a couple blue jays hanging around. I started putting out just a little bit of food and so far, so good. We'll see-eee...........

Congrats Terry on having REAL birds coming to your yard. You all would be jealous of mine. We usually get up to 10-20 pairs of cardinals, some blue jays, finches, woodpeckers, wrens, orioles, blue birds, robins, and a bunch others. We once got a yellow bird that we never could find in our bird book. It was canary yellow, had spindly legs, I think a longer beak (not short) though could be wrong. It was a neat bird and I think wanted in the house cause it would fly around all of our windows and watch us and get our attention if we didn't pay attention to it. Haven't seen it since last summer though.

Oh now HUSH, you braggart!! I do thank you though for reminding of all the variety of birds that I do not have :( *sniff sniff*

LOL. You're welcome. One reason we have variety is, elm, black walnut, ash, pear, apple, maple, oak, sycamore, hedgeapple, a huge evergreen tree, don't ask, we never figured out what it is and we've been here 10 yrs, wild grape vine, woods at one end of the yard, pasture on another, and all this on an acre. Woods are in front and are my neighbor's and the pasture is next ot us and belong to another neighbor. This pasture is wild. Hasn't been mowed in don't know how many years.

I thought I told you to hush child!! You're bragging again.......now you're reminding me of how small our property is :(
somebody puleeze pass me the tissues, I do declare I feel a tear a coming, oh whoas me......

ROTFL!!!!

i clicked on link not went, where is it??

It can be found under "Home Talk", "Leisurely Pursuits".

This will take you directly to the Bird Watching Forum... :) http://davesgarden.com/place/f/birdwatching/all/