Japanese MG ID questions and explorations...

I am very comfortable with the discussion of this subject in depth and so I decided to start a new thread

Here are some links to where this has been addressed previously to a limited extent
Japanese Morning Glory Conundrum
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/678259/

Morning Glories: Imperialis? Morning glory
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/581971/

2nd posting middle section > reference to commercial production and handmade arts...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/574395/

Japanese to English names and link to some of the better translators
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/555920/

This topic can most certainly be addressed in a diplomatic manner,but frankness,slang and good humor can have a definite sobering and clarifying effect...

I am not signed up on e-bay to purchase or sell and therefore I care not about being boycotted from any merchants...I welcome feedback from all...

Communication is the key,preferably respectful and cooperative,but if that fails or is abused...then the usual 'courtesies' may be waived in favor of accuracy...

I had attempted to initiate lasting clarifying cooperative communications with several e-bay merchants who pretend to be japanese 'experts'...

One merchant who had 'picked my brain' several years ago,had decided that she now knew 'enough' and declined further responses...so be it...this merchant's constant awkward blunderings 'speak for themselves'...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is alot of difficulty in translating from the Japanese language to English...the older Kanji characters can contain sublties that may be lost when rendered into Romanji...and important connotations may be lost when strict denotational renditions are used...somewhat analagous to the useage of slang terms...

TTY,...

Ron



This message was edited Dec 18, 2006 5:11 AM

Thanks Ron for the information being presented here. I do believe in preserving the Japanese Morning glory varieties such as Ukigumo and Miko no Mai with hand pollination. I have no problem with the names being Japanese but believe if you grow them outside with many other Nils then you better be tying off some blooms and hand pollinating to get true seeds that will continue to breed true later down the road.

I also think allowing some natural selection in these open pollinated seeds and continued raising of open pollinated Nils with maybe a little help with the pollinating as you go will yeild some very interesting results over years of time. I will never believe open pollinated seeds are just "trash" but then they are not guaranteed pure with bees flying all over the place either. They really cannot be passed off as what they aren`t which is a certain stable variety that will come true from seed...unless you put it through the test and hand pollinate for so many generations as has been discussed at least 3 up to 7 the more the better.

BTW, I also saw where they said Hatsu Arashi did not exist in Japan. What is up with that?

And after shopping ebay I find I`m not the only one who has type errored the word fuji accidentally putting a g instead of a j.... oops. :)







This message was edited Dec 17, 2006 3:46 PM

This is a picture of the Hatsu Arashi I grew.

gardener2005 -

There are many smaller companies and distributors that will often substitute their own cultivar name for the same or a very similar type offered by Sakata or Takii...
Who is the 'ultimate authority' to determine whether a cultivar name is legitimate or not(?!)...there are no 'ultimate' infallible authorities...the closest to an authority on JMG definitive ID's are the alph-numeric strains catalogued by Kyushu...and I've even seen taxanomic(!) errors on the Kyushu site...

I have e-mailed Kyushu in English and in Japanese Kanji,Romanji and both kana (hiragana katakana) offering taxanomic error reports and that they could reply in the japanses script of their choice...I have not received the courtesy of any type of reply whatsoever...so be it...

Here again is the flower and leaf shape comparison of 3 very similar looking cultivars

They are from the left: Hatsu Arashi,Akatsuki No Umi,and 'Berlin Blue'...frontal view showing corolla characteristics and accompanying leaf shapes
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1681054

rear view of the same flowers as above (in reverse order from the frontal view) showing differences in the characteristics of the sepals... are from the left 'Berlin Blue',"Akatsuki no Umi" and "Hatsu Arashi"
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1731386


The terms "Hatsu" and "Arashi" are both legitimate romanji terms...the company here in the US who in relatively recent times >that first offered the "Hatsu Arashi" was the Fragrant Path...I'll have to dig out some of my old catalogs from the early 70's (and before) to double check and see if a cultivar was offered by that particular word combination before TFP's offering...


I'd be interested to know what the person (who are so sure about Hatsu Arashi NOT being a name used in Japan) thinks the 'correct' cultivar name is and by what 'standard' are they going by(?!)...a japanese google search(?)...a particular 'local' asagao club(?)...does this person think that all of the asagao clubs always agree on all of the cultivar names(?)......and while your at it >show them the comparison of the 3 similar types compared here and if they know what the 'correct' name is for each of these stable types...

All opinions are to be taken with as many grains of salt as necessary...


TTY,...

Ron

Thanks go to Karen for originally raising the questions we have all been dealing with and Ron for giving the topic its own thread!

I too have "studied" the topic of Japanese Morning Glories, trying to learn as much about them as I can. I've always ejoyed and been drawn toward those cultural aspects of Japanese horticulture that appreciate the small differences between plants and take the time to segregate, perpetuate and accentuate these characteristics.

My interest also comes from the genetic side of the issue, though I am by no means even close to an expert on that subject!...it is just where my interest is! My thinking is that if I can begin to understand the basic genetic components of this species and how they reveal themselves individually and in combination with each other, I can better preserve what I have or create what I have seen, but can't find a source to acquire.

A lot of the Japanese sites that I visited are enthusiasts for what my translator (google!) calls "change morning glories"....or those morning glories with mutations that when revealed are sterile plants so must be maintained through selecting seed from plants that are heterozygous ( carrying only one of the recessives....often called splits, especially by animal breeders). It seems to me that from what I have been able to glean from these sites is that they use terms or names that describe and classify the charactersitics of the plant or line, rather than assigning a name. Even when I view very detailed picture descriptions of the very large and prestigous large flowered Japanese Morning Glory shows in August each year, they classify and identify them by type and not by name. Now each entry may have a "name", but it is just not listed with the entry...or at least not my translations! I think much of the interests of the owners of the sites I visit are in the exhibition of their plants, which not only requires genetically superior plant lines, but exacting cultural methods....something we have not developed with morning glories here stateside. I have learned that these large flowered enthusiasts take great measures to preserve their lines of award winning JMGs, through proper isolation and secrecy and exclusion. Such is the life of breeding to a standard....something else we do not do with JMGs here!

So...what does all that have to do with the price of ...tea in China....er...JMG seeds on ebay! I too have gotten zero response back from all the inquiries I have sent to various Japanese sources/enthusiasts/experts. Seems they don't really want to share! Definitely a different approach...as we get all excited when we have international interest in our hobbies. That could be the difference...do they consider the JMG a cultural treasure to be protected?

I guess that as long as we are willing to pay the price, there will be those "economic opportunists" willing to supply seeds to us! I certainly do not consider any of these purveyors authorities....only sources. I do not trust anything they say or claim, either verbally or through the pictures they provide. After reviewing the horrendous state of nomenclature applied to JMGs here....I also pay little attention to names. A cultivar ( which JMGs are not) or varietal name applied by others to JMGs seems rather pointless to me...like has been discussed here over an over...you really only "have" what is growing in your garden, what you can touch and control the pollination of. Until there is some registered standard for each "name", that we all honor, I think we are just exercising varying degrees of futility in trying to "know" that you have a particular "Heian no Umi" for example. It is more important to me to know that I have a beautiful deep purple line of large flowered JMG with variegated yellow cicada leaves that comes back true each year (or doesn't!) than that I have a specific named in my collection.....but then I am not trying to sell them at this time. Karen, you are so right....what do you call the plants you now have that you are trying to share? Herein lies the dangers of marketing!

There are lots of really beautiful JMGs available in ebay, usually all have some name to describe their nuances... but can those names be maintained down the road when the particular plant is really only a selection at the f2 or f3 level? Often claims are made that they came true from last year...but what is "true"? Our level of observation is often so casual that if it is still pink...it came back "true"! What about the subtle corolla markings, leaf shape, variegation, etc.?

My approach so far is to document the name and source of the seeds I receive and then keep detailed records by assigning a number to each plant that I save seed from. Because I really don't know what the true Sazanami is, I don't know which plant..if any... of the four different plants I grew last year are the real thing! I know that all of them are really nice, but very different! All came from a sealed seed pack from Japan...no new news here! I now consider all the different JMGs that I grew this last year as a pallette, either for color in the garden, or for a specific hybridization project. Their names only help me remember their ancestry.

I really like the idea of maintaining reference to the Japanese heritage of these plants, as it is more personally pleasing to me to remember a plant line by Hatsu Arashi than Betty's Blue! But when we create our own hybrids here, are we fooling ourselves if we try to assign Japanese names to them....kind of phony culturalism? If you look at Japanese Irises....the original cultivars obviously came from Japan with Japanese names....but the advancement of non Japanese hybridization has created many new and interesting cultivars...all with non-Japanese names!

My thoughts at the moment! - Arlan

arlan - Excellent feedback...you make some very good points including some that I would like to address alittle further at this moment ...

You mentioned

"lies the dangers of marketing!"...the majority of the problems stem from people who are marketing as they are so(!) concerned with competetion and damage to their sales image...people who are not marketing seem to be much more open and receptive to learning and less resentful of constructive crticicism ...

The points you raise on the exactitudes of knowing precise cultivars is a very good one although the ability to determine the exact species is not subject to the same degree of non-defined 'vagueness'...
So,when taxanomic questions are raised I and the rest of the community do what we can to 'troubleshoot' any questionable taxanomic questions...offerings by japanese merchants are no exception to this basic and healthy approach to learning,knowledge and correct identification of plants according to current Internationally accepted standards...

My perspective on the application of the term cultivar is that cultivar can justifiably apply to any(!) plant that has been intentionally bred or selected(!) for particular traits...a cultivar does not have to be a registered or 'recognized' cultivar to be a cultivar in the broadest sense of the term...

The JMG as a " cultural treasure to be protected?"...great...
There is also a type of myopic tunnelvision that comes with human culture being in isolation from the rest of the world...Japan 'enjoyed' a cultural isolation before the end of WWII and the errors in scientific objectivity in relation to the International community are still in evidence...cultural isolation has certain benefits and disadvantages...a inherent 'tradeoff'...

You mention the aspects of secrecy and exclusion...this is certainly practiced in Japan as well as everywhere else in the world as a sort of professional or trade secret and every single person must decide where it is fitting and appropriate for them to draw the line as to any type of plant or technique that they may possess


Long term readers of this forum will know that when the identity of a plant is called into question it is appropriate to discuss this question in the forum...identity questions are examined whether the source of the conflicting information is an individual or a merchant of any type...particular merchants are referenced when that source is relevant to the identities in question...Many US companies as well as merchants from other countries have been referenced in these threads and Japanese merchants are no exception to this consistent general 'rule'...even if they 'think' that they are...


The online translators can be helpful in getting some information on translations from Japanese to English translations but the online translators have many limitations...they are only as knowledgeable as the people who enter the information into the system and are still limited by the manner in which the computer languages are applied...

I enjoyed corresponding with a person in Japan who has a Doctorate in the Japanese language and is a professional translator between any of several languages including Japanese,English,French and German and it is from this person that I learned of the numerous complexities of the Japanese language including the variations in the several character and scripts used as the basis for the written language...
The Japanese written language underwent several 'revisions' after WWII and included the inclusion and removal of certain characters and script aspects...some of the official 'revisions' only lasted for a couple of years before being replaced by new revisions >which also underwent some continuing changes...Some aspects of the revisions are known only(!) by the people who were taught those particular revisions and by people with doctorates in the Japanese language >As a Doctor of the language must know all of the characters and scripts that most Japanese people do not even know exist...these largely unknown aspects of the written language ARE especially relevant when translating materials that were written during the revisionary periods and when looking into the 'ultimate' objective historical accuracy of documents that may have been written or in any other way affected by the revisions in the written languages...subtleties of interpretation relative to particular points in time when something was recorded and/or translated are important...


Here is another Ipomoea species Ipomoea sloteri
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/662/index.html

being called by a very old synonym of Quamoclit multifida and offered on e-bay as a 'Japanese Morning Glory'
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320051875598&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RUPX_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=320058133076&itemcount=12&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=UpSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

just for the record

TTY,...

Ron



This message was edited Dec 23, 2006 3:53 AM

That is expensive for cardinal climber. The color looks different from mine. My cardinal climbers looked red with definite orange tones. You have to be careful looking at the pictures too. The Chachamaru looks orange in the Japanese ads.

Sellers are going to be more sensitive because their reputation and ability to make a living is out on the line similar to being evaluated on the job. They are most likely to feel put on the spot when they are wrong about something and the whole world is watching. They could possibly be ignorant or mistaken thinking this item is listed correctly.

On the occasions I have tried to help inform a seller a listing was incorrect they reacted as if they didn`t know if I was for real or not and they were unsure of who I was and if the information was valid or maybe I was just a troll on the internet. It is tough coming across as being for real on the internet when you are trying to tell a stranger their blue flowers are really red...for the second batch they came out red..Really they are not blue!

I plan on selling but will try to have what I`m selling categorized and presented as what they are...many of mine will be Japanese Morning glory large flower open pollinated complete with pictures of test grown flowers out of the labeled batches of seeds. My hand pollinated ones will be tested as well. I will guarantee the hand pollinated ones. I also do not guarantee open pollinated seeds to breed true because of chances of cross pollination. If a bee lands on a pink nil and is carrying pollen from a blue nil then some crosspollinating could occur and result in some seeds in the pod coming out blue instead of pink! That is why I will not guarantee colors and shapes in open pollinated ipomoea nils. I did not guarantee colors or shapes in my open pollinated nil seeds this past year and guess what? My bids were lower but I felt better and more fulfilled being honest.




This message was edited Feb 12, 2007 1:08 PM

All of ya`ll are great. :)

Have a very Merry Christmas!!!

This message was edited Feb 12, 2007 1:15 PM

gardener2005 - it's alot easier to succumb to 'personalizing' criticism as 'attacks' and assigning ' mean old grump' type of motivations to evaluations when a person is selling and that's why I specifically mentioned that sellers are one of the main obstacle in disseminating accurate information about the plants..>sellers are most usually more concerned about their image than the accuracy of the plant ID's...this priority of 'image' motive is one of THE main obstacles to accurate plant ID's .it shouldn't matter if the person is a 'sweet little schoolgirl' or a 'mean old grump'...it is a sellers responsibilty to >know your product > sales101...

This thread isn't intended as a sympathy or support group for sellers who put image 1st and product accuracy 2nd > it's primarily 'by gardeners for gardeners' > more of a consumer advocacy ...and/or for everyone concerned with achieving accurate information on the plants as it relates to various depths of interest in gardening...

It is to be expected that consumers would be more appreciative of consumer oriented presentations than most sellers...

Some thoughts and perspectives about sharing being viewed as 'friendly' or 'unfriendly'...and what is actually more unfriendly...near bottom of my 4th post
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/665719/

Good grist for the thought mill...

TTY,...

Ron



This message was edited Dec 23, 2006 7:44 PM

Ron,

Your statements explain why I`m not selling at the present moment. I will sell when I have somethings grown out,tested and ready to be put to use. Me sharing on here is different. I`m not sharing on here trying to promote my seeds. I`m sharing on a more personal level as a gardener who is experienced growing a garden and new at morning glories. I feel I can catch on and learn a lot here. Making mistakes is a way of life for gardeners and that is how they learn things. Noone has it all right at one time. It is great to give good advice to everyone like you say. If a seller refuses to correct errors then you can still educate the consumer on what is what so they can make their own informed choices.


For example, I shared my purple star patterned blizzard flower that grew a small petite twining vine with variegated heart shaped leaves. I nicknamed it "Speckly". Well,the nickname probably wasn`t the best name because it sounds too much like "speckled" which is a color in which there are multiple little spots of color sprinkled over the flower.

But I didn`t quite make that distinction until Ron said something to me about it. Well, at first I felt like the name wasn`t that big of a deal because the flower wasn`t even a pure strain and needed to be grown out for a while to see if it had potential to produce more of a like kind. I figured since it was private for my own use then it was irrelevant.

However(since I was sharing it here on a public forum) Ron suggested perhaps it would misslead others here to nickname my blizzard flower "Speckly" because it sounds too much like speckled which isn`t a correct term for the way it looked and make newbies think something blizzard was speckled and be confused.

So to avoid confusing newbies I have change the name of my purple flower to "purple/ray pattern/blizzard". I`ll share more on that later.

This is fun and exiting and a good learning environment for everyone I think.




This message was edited Feb 12, 2007 1:16 PM

{Ron said:Some thoughts and perspectives about sharing being viewed as 'friendly' or 'unfriendly'...}

Friendly is when you share advise in a friendly way as a mentor. This is imparting of knowledge. People who mistakenly list their seeds under the wrong name are not criminals. You do not have to be a botanist to raise plants and sell the seeds. Sure you want to learn exactly what you are growing but whether everyone else does that is out of your control. You give the advise with the intentions of increasing the other person`s wealth of knowledge because you like the other person and you want to help them succeed in their endeavors.That is being a friend.

Whether or not they listen and put it to good use is out of our hands.










This message was edited Feb 12, 2007 1:19 PM

Hmmm...perhaps the 'issue' of what constitutes 'friendly' or 'unfriendly responses should have it's own thread...

I was hoping that this thread could remain focused on clarifying what are viewed as Japanese Morning Glories...

Nonetheless,but will add my perspective on some aspects brought up...

"Whether or not they listen and put it to good use is out of your hands. "

Everything is subject to interpretation and anyone who has a very fragile sense of self-image is going to interpret any type of criticism via 'emotional thinking' as a personal attack and do everthing they can to interpret every type of criticism into a personal attack...

"Whether or not they listen and put it to good use is out of your hands. "

Providing relevant pointers and links to the database and other threads to the answers for questions that have already been addressed, allows the questioner to see some history of how the community has previously addressed the topic in question...I very often do invest the time and effort to provide relevant links and although this can be viewed as being 'brushed off' or 'shooed away'...if I was choosing to completely ignore(!) a question >I would simply fail to respond(!) at all...if anyone views my responses as 'attacks' or 'unfriendly' just let me know and I'll put you on my listing of people not to respond to...I will only respond to your postings if specifically directed to your material by another member...no problem...

There are different perspectives that a person could have in mind when seeking answers...one perspective can view others as 'objects' who 'should' and are 'expected' to do all of your research for you type of 'service'...this is not friendly and is a blatantly selfish and disrespectful approach to just take it for 'granted' that someone else is 'obligated' to do all of your work for you...
There are many people with profound expertise on these forums and most are happy to share openly...although nobody,including myself likes to feel like they are just being 'used' in a 'take it for granted' type of way...

"Whether or not they listen and put it to good use is out of your hands. "

Providing links that are thought stimulating is often better than just 'initially dishing out answers'...thought stimulation is more likely to result in an understanding as compared to simply 'parroting' answers without any real understanding of what is being repeated...

"If you give a man a fish,you fed him for the day...if you teach a man to fish you've fed him for his life" - An old aphorism

I prefer helping to learn to fish than just handing out fish...

"Whether or not they listen and put it to good use is out of your hands. "

Questions are good and I enjoy seeing questions posted >although it is often the case that there are many(!) members capable of answering many of the questions presented,but don't...when a question is posed,I will sometimes wait to see if others will respond first and if no one else responds I will offer what I can...

Many questions posed could often be answered by a simple check in the PlantFiles
http://davesgarden.com/pf/
and/or by using the search function
http://davesgarden.com/forums/search.php

Regarding consistent spelling errors of key aspects...I don't see why spelling errors of important aspects should be given special status as compared to any other important aspect such as color,shape,size,ph,temperature etc...everyone makes typographic errors,but if spelling errors regarding any important aspect are repeatedly occuring >they should be addressed...

Trying to keep the focus on the what of the material posted ,rather than on the who is an important distinction that can help to prevent critiques as being perceived as 'personal attacks'...although I still often davesmail members before posting to the forum...and all of my davesmails are still preserved in my inbox...

There is a general protocol of respect that should be implemented on the public forums,but not every reply can be individually sugarcoated (nor do I think it should be) to each individuals specifications to prevent any possible 'emotional trauma'... this would effectively lead to and prevent even general corrections and dissenting opinions from being voiced...people who are overly sensitive to the general criticism that is easily processed by the vast majority of members may want to consider if posting any material that is potentially open to criticism is beneficial for them as extra-sensitive individuals...

Although I do make a very sincere and concerted effort to share what I've learned and from my experience...and since I've a special interest in the Morning Glory family >it is in the MG forum that I consistently post,but this is not my forum...it 'belongs' to every member...I always refrain from referring to myself as an expert and any such comments that refer to me as an expert or 'hitting the nail on the head' have been from enthusiastic and well-intentioned appreciative commuity members...

All peceptions of expertise or not are the result of other members evaluations after multiple cross checking both the short term and long term historical accuracy and reliability of postings...


"Whether or not they listen and put it to good use is out of your hands. "

May the Spirit of Christmas Past, Present and Future be in our Hearts...

Ron


P.S. - gardener2005 - Thanks for your perspective on how to ideally present material...although,we all have to make our mistakes on our own...

This message was edited Dec 25, 2006 5:27 PM

Ron, I`d never take you for granted and I appreciate you. Merry Christmas!

Btw,I have learned a lot and yes it is going to be put to good use. you better believe it.